July 24, 2011 - 11:01am
Need help figuring out formula for this bread.
I wanted to start a new thread for this. I need to find out the formula for this bread which is also a sandwich roll. The roll has a slight sour taste to it, the crumb is soft and chewy, the crust is thin and crunchy. The crust is the big mystery for me as it is unlike any baguette that I have made or eaten before. This crust is much thinner than a baguette which makes it great as a sandwich roll. Help please!
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How long before it stales? I'm trying to determine if there is a preferment of some kind.
Jim
Jim,
I actually bought this roll, took the pictures, then left it at my friends house before I went to the airport (the bread is in LA, I live in Miami). But if I recall, it lasts about a day.
I suspect, even if you have the formula, the handling/ retarding/ baking methods, and the type of oven used will be just as much of a challenge.
Can you see the rolls as they are being baked in the restaurant? The bubbles pretty obviously indicate the rolls are cool retarded after shaping. This also probably explains the "slight sour taste".
Probably a fairly high hydration(66 - 75% or so), and proofed and baked in a perforated baguette pan, or the like(Subaway pan).
How would you describe the "chewiness" of the roll?
Just trying to get the ball rolling.
You are correct, but the formula is probably 85% of the trick. To answer your questions, No, you cannot see the rolls being made or baked. I agree with the overnight retarding, and it is definitely baked in a perf pan as noted by one of the images of the bottom. The roll is very chewy, but the crumb is not dense, it is very light and tears easily. I asked the manager if there was anything besides flour water salt and yeast and he said NO, so I am glad I can eliminate any dough conditioners or sugar.
Hi,
I agree with everything Mrfrost offered in his analysis. I would only add to it, I think the dough's hydration likely favors the lower numbers: 66% to 70%.
As to the crust's thinness, I've compared your photos to some baguette photos I've posted as well as dmsnyder's baguette photos. I don't see a significant difference in thickness (thinness). My baguettes come out of the oven with crunchy, crackily crust, but regardless of how I cool them and subseqently store them--in plastic, paper, or simply wrapped in a tea towel--the crust softens. I usually restore their crunchiness in a 350°F oven for 5 minutes just before serving them. I'm curious how the baker maintains the crust's crunch.
As Mrfrost points out, the techniques the bakery uses are as important, or, perhaps, even more important than the ingredients. Can you ask the baker to give you a tour/tutorial on how he makes his loaves?
David G
P.S. edit: I don't wish to start and arguement, but I welcome a debate. I don't agree with your statement "the formula is 85% of the trick". In my opinion it's probably the opposite: 85% techniques and processes. After all, it's just flour, water, salt, and yeast.
P.P.S edit "The roll is very chewy, but the crumb is not dense, it is very light and tears easily."
This comment supports Mrfrost's hydration range, and implies a low protein AP flour, probably lower in protein than King Arthur.
How's its flavor?
I would agree to most of what has been said so far. However if you look at the photo here, the crumb looks like an enriched white bread, like a hard roll formula with a little fat and perhaps egg in the mix. The pattern in the crumb is not like a straight French bread, IMHO.
Eric
I asked the manager if there was anything besides flour water salt and yeast and he said no. I had originally thought there might be some fat in it which made it soft.
It still says "flour" but there may be some dough conditioners to give it that appearance as described by ehanner
The pro bakers have access to more flour types than us home bakers. I remember a similar post about a Philly Hoagie roll where the pro bakers flour had whey added. I agree that the small blisters indicate an overnite retard. There is also a possibility of added egg white to firm-up the crumb. Formulas mean nothing without the bakers skill.
And on the other hand you'll find four fingers and a thumb; Jim
Does that mean to retard in the refridgerator or room temperature? Also if the bread comes from an Italian Deli, I thought the difference between Italian and French bread was the addition of olive oil; am I wrong?
Thanks,
Francine
Good day Francine,
Yes, overnite in the fridge (hope you have room) yet your fridge may be colder than the bakeries. So put it in late in the evening and out early in the morning. Olive oil is possible; yet not absolute. I would say there's a bigger difference in types of flours and and pre-ferments between the French and Italian then using Olive Oil. I'm afraid there will be some trial and error involved, yet even the less then perfect ones will be tasty.
Learning to speak Italian would'nt hurt, Jim
Thanks Jim,
My biggest hurdle is trying to figure out how they get the crust to be so thin and crackly. My baguette always has a cruchy thick crust that really takes a good bite to get through. Although this is not a problem, and my baguettes are excellent, they don't make for a good sandwich roll. One difference I didn't think about is that these rolls are not proofed "en couche". There is not any telltale flour left on top, I am guessing these are shaped then placed on a perforated pan then slow fermented in a proof box at a high humidity.
One technique is to proof one hour, fridge 2 hours, into hot oven with steam.
Thanks Jim,
I do have easy access to an Italian Deli/Market just down the road from me; I purchase 00 type flour there quite often; I will try that. I saw sometime back where someone in this group had purchased one of the wine fridges, like they sell at Best Buy; would that be better to use for dough retardation? I have no idea what temperature they are set at...
Cheers,
Francine
If you've got the dough (money) get the wine fridge, make sure it's big enough. They can be set at about 40 to 60°F.
Jim
Hopefully the wine fridge has a temperature control knob; some do and some don't. Some are "fixed" at a certain temperature (maybe 50F?, probably different for each one, but probably okay for bread dough in any case -- you may be able to find out the exact temperature from the manufacturer's website). The cheapest ones are "fixed" at something like 20F below the outside temperature whatever that is ...which is great when the kitchen is 70F as the wine fridge will be 50F, but if the kitchen skyrockets to 90F those wine fridges will rise to 70F. Depending on how variable the temperature is in your kitchen, you may not be able to use those cheapest wine fridges easily.