Lacking great flavor
Hello All, I make many different kinds of bread and I generally get a good crust and crumb BUT I'm not getting the great "old-time" flavor that I remember from my childhood. I lived on the east coast and I often got wonderfully aromatic breads from the local European bakeries. I could smell the fantastic aroma from a block away and the taste was to die for. I'm now living in the Philippines and I am stuck with a very limited choice of flours: bleached white bread flour and whole wheat plus cake and A.P. flour. Which leads me to the point, How do I get great depth of flavor? Ok, here is the formula that I'm currently working on> BOULLE. The biga: 60 gram water, 1/8 tsp dry yeast, 100 gram of braad flour. Mix and rest on counter for an hour ,then into fridge for 18 hrs. The dough: all of the biga plus 120 gram of water, 1/4 tsp of dry yeast, 20 gram of W.W. flour, and 200 gram of bread flour (the salt comes later). I mix this on my kitchenaid stand mixer, set on #2 for 3 min. AUTOLYSE 20 min. Add 1 tsp salt and knead with a dough hook for 5 min more on #4. The dough temp is now about 78-80 degrees F. Cover and let rest 20 min. Do one French fold and put dough into a covered bowl until doubled, about 2 and 1/2 hr. I now turn the dough out onto a lightly floured counter and shape it into a tight round ball with a taut skin (weight is now 500 gram). I put the loaf on a silpat sheet and a baking sheet. Cover in a clear plastic bag. Loaf doubles in about 2 hr. When ready to bake I score the loaf with an X and put ininto a 400 degreeF. oven and pour water into a cake pan on the oven floor. In 34 min the loaf has a great oven spring and is a deep golden brown. Internal temp is 210 degrees F. Cool on a wire rack for one hour. Now the sad part. To my taste, the loaf is at best only fair tasting. Not at all what I remember as a kid.
I have tried many variations on sponges, poolish, and bigas. I have tried retarding both the bulk ferment and also tried retarding the shaped loaf in the fridge ; results pretty much the same a fantastic LOOKING bread but only just a fair taste. One final thought. Because I now live in the Philippines the bulk ferment AND the final rising take place in a 80 degree room. Any input would be much appreciated.
The technique sounds great for WW and the ingredients look good. I wonder if doing an overnight rise (in the refrigerator) of the dough would develop more flavor. You are developing some flavor with the overnight biga but that is only a small part of the dough and may not be enough to develop the subtle flavors you want.
What I have done is mix the final dough later in the evening/afternoon and place it in an oiled covered plastic container and into the refrigerator.Next AM, take it out and let sit for 1 hour on the counter. It has almost always doubled or let it finish doubling.Shape,proof and bake. The dough doesn't completely warm up and it can feel more clay-like at that stage but proceed as usual with it. It may take a little longer to proof,also but it makes a great tasting loaf when I do this.
My other thought was to add some sweetener-not much, just a little and increase the salt slightly.
What do others say about the flavor of the bread? Do their sentiments agree with your assessment?
try plugging in separately: roasted flour sesame seeds variety of oils adding malt nut flour yeast water
That might give you some ideas. You might also want to look into adding spices into your bread, ground or whole coriander seeds, or herbs or even black pepper. Experiment!
There are so many nuts and fruits that are easy to find there, it would be interesting to use ground cashew flour or gosh, tamarind juice. Don't limit your search to memories, try inventing your own!
As I said in my original post, I have been experimenting - a lot. What I am trying to re-create is a simple european stye boule made with only 4 ingredients: flour yeast, water and salt. I am not opposed to adding a bit of malt but essentially I want to keep it simple, straight-forward and honest. You know, just like the bakers from the "old-country".
Another thing I have been wondering about is, What do people think about the ovens effect on FLAVOR. Example: assuming you had 3 ovens and ONLY ONE DOUGH, if you put your bread in a brick oven, same bread in a convection oven and a 3rd loaf in a home gas oven, would you get different flavors from each oven? Hmmm.
Malt is made from grain; sprouted dried and ground into flour. Bleached flour is a sterile ingredient that is limiting the "European taste" and complexities. So I feel if you stick to just bleached flour... without adding any nutty flavors or sourdough or natural complex ingredients, bread baking and aroma searching is going to be frustrating.
Another idea would be to crumble some of your baked rye bread (altus) into the white dough mixing it in or is this not strait-forward?
I think you might have to realize that the aromas coming from the bakery could have been a blend of different kinds of breads all being baked at the same time, including sweet breads and fruit fillings. And the coffee machine aromas as well. Just something to think about.
Is there a way you can order other flours through a local bakery or hotel restaurant? Check with those servicing international hotels nearby. Especially European cooks in the kitchen are a great resource. The ex-pat community will know where specialty items can be found.
Re: my question about 3 different ovens. Yes, I mean a wood fired brick oven. I hope no-body asks me about ,What kid of wood? Ok, now back to flavor development. In desperation, I have begun to experiment with using very small amounts of beer in the formula and it is proving to be a step in the right direction. Additionally, I now have started to use about .08% of whole wheat which also helps a bit. But please, you must understand how limited I am. The Philippines is a 3rd World nation and is an extremely backward country. The supermarkets, even the giant chains and large bakeries, never even heard of unbleached flour, let alone rye flour or malt. I am in the process of looking for a mill but it is very likely that ALL milling is done abroad and then imported. I have been thinking about doing a pre-ferment with 100% W.W. flour and then using some of that to jump start the flavor.
coconut husks and palms? Where are you in the P.I.? On a main island or a smaller one?
Peter Reinhard suggests adding salt to the WW when soaking. About 4% of WW flour weight, don't forget to subtract from the salt in the recipe.
Another method is just to mix up the dough flours with the water and let them sit overnight, add the yeast/salt/ anything else the next morning to continue, this coaxes flavor out also.
Beer is flavored with malt. Need to make your own? Hit a Chinese market and get your hands on some barley or even some roasted barley flour. Taro root being nutty and starchy might help your bread, read up on it and see if it grows locally or in season. I know you can get potatoes, cook some up and work mashed or grated into your bread including the cooking water. Makes for superb crusts and moist crumb!
Please don't limit yourself! (I get the feeling there is some culture shock involved here.) Get out and explore your ingredient options. Don't cocoon yourself in the kitchen. If you have someone helping you with the household, involve them in your adventure, keep your eyes open for new ideas. Four eyes are better than two when it comes to finding possible ingedients and tools.
Hi Mini Oven, Thanks for the input. In answer to your question , I'm on the main island of Luzon. I'm not clear on what you mean by "soaking" the W.W. I have whole wheat FLOUR not whole GRAINS of wheat. Are you refering to a preferment? Right now I'm working on a loaf that has BOTH a stiff biga AND a poolish, that's in addition to the little bit of beer. Barley I have . It's hard to find but once in a while I come across pearl barley (which I use in soup). Also, I have bulgar. It's as rare as hens teeth but I found a Middle Eastern market that has some. Since I'm stuck with bleached bread flour and as you point out it is sterile I've been thinking of soaking a cup or so of the bulgar over-night and then using the soak water to make my bread. It may be that the water would then contain some of the types of bacteria that yield flavor. I like your idea about hydrating the flours and water over-night ( would that be at room temp. or in fridge?)
Soaking is letting grain, flour, seeds or whatever sit with water for a period of time. They can be cold soakers or hot soakers. Soaking just means letting the ingredient hydrate or soak up water, this can put all kinds of reactions into motion. It softens the harder bits and pieces that poke holes in the gluten structure of the dough (tearing) and it puts enzymes into play. Some enzymes are wanted some are not. Adding salt to a soaker will not only soften the water but keep many good and bad bacteria and enzymes at bay. You can do it at room temp, or in the fridge. You can find out tons of info if you search TFL. plug in WW soak or WW soaking or presoaks. Spell out WW add presoak and Peter Reinhart. Lots of ways to go about it. If you search just using WW you will drown in hits--yuck.
A preferment usually contains yeast in some form.
Bad news: Pearl Barley will not sprout and that is essential to making malt. For malt, the grain has to be whole. About Prearl barley... :) Inspect carefully for grey looking grains and also dust in the package as signs of "added protein" or grain worms/bugs (which also add flavor.) They can also be soaked and/or cooked or ground and added to bread dough like nuts. Might be interesting roasted too. Added high or low protein levels are up to you.
Bulgar is already cooked. It is grain that has been steamed, dried and crushed. There is no bacteria in it if any at all. It can add a little bit of flavor when soaked and put into the dough added like nuts.
Brown rice might be worth a shot as it is not polished. If you're interested... Grab some fresh with the hulls if you want to get a sourdough starter going.
Mini
I know beer can be made from different grains. Perhaps a local brewer would be a good source of flavor for your bread? The spent grain is supposed to be excellent for bread (for flavor) as well a they may have a source for different ingredients. Brewers and bakers have always worked hand-in-hand.That is why old European breads had the flavor they did-their yeast and other ingredients were from the brewers and by adding altus (old bread) to the dough,there was little waste and great flavor development.
Isn't there a large population from India in the Philippines?? That community may be a source of flour for you but try before you buy any large quantities because some (not all) of the flours are milled at high temps and there is a lot of starch damage-which makes for great flavor but bad or no gluten formation. Great for rothi and chapata (flat bread) but not for loaf bread.
Are these contacts at all helpful? (I google searched "flour,Philippines" )I have no idea if they are still current or useful but there were several newspaper articles talking about PAFMI and the 5 flour millers in the Philippine so there are flour mills located on the islands.
Chamber of Flour Millers
Contact Person: Ms. Tisha Hernandez, Representative
Telephone: (+63 2) 897-3305 to 07 loc. 20
Fax: (+63 2) 897-3308
E-mail: N/A
Philippine Association of Flour Millers, Inc. (PAFMI)
Contact Person: Dr. Felix Maramba, President
Telephone: (+63 2) 811-4387 / 4366
Fax: (+63 2) 810-9462 / 811-4033
E-mail: pafmil@info.com.ph
I've also had great good fortune talking to librarians for information.They are unbiased and have great information resources at their fingertips. Is that a possible resource for you? Perhaps at a large university?
Have fun!
I use spent grain from brewing most of the time in my breads. It does provide some sort of sweeter taste which is then offset by the sour. However, it also adds a bit of bitterness to it. Reason for that is that I leach out most of the sugars down to about 3 brix, sometimes a bit less. That causes tannins to develop which are definitely unwanted in brewing, but sometimes it just happens. I never noticed it in my beer, but I can taste it in the bread. I guess it's because I use up to 2 pounds of spent grain in about 3 to 4 pounds of flour.
So yes, the spent grain adds to the complexity of the bread, but it also adds something probably less desirable. But worth trying if you never did it. It doesn't bother me so much that I won't use it.
One minor drawback is that crushed barley contains the husks (which are needed in the mashing process of the beer, it creates the filter bed when extracting the sugars). You can definitely feel them while eating bread. But, again, it doesn't bother me personally. And whoever tastes my breads hasn't complained yet, either.
Thomas
Wow! A lot of fantastic information. I sure do appreciate it. The last few days I have been working on different pre-ferments using a little beer and it is making a better loaf. I wish that I could follow up on each and every idea that is posted but, alas, the store employees, who work for others, don't know and don't care what the store sells . The hardest thing for me to deal with is CONSTANTLY hearing, "No got. Out of stock". the store may possibly have the item, and the employee may have been stocking the item all morning, BUT he never even looked to see what he was stocking. So, that means that I am literally on my own. However, I know what tastes good, I love to cook and I'm a stubborn old cuss. I don't eaisily give up. When I decided to make a really good baguette, with a shatteringly crisp crust ,I did not hit it on formula and technique until my 67th batch (with a lot of help from great Freshloaf posters). Like they say, "It's not the destination, it's the journey". Wih that in mind, I'm so very close on this one and I'm having a blast.