Struggling with whole wheat bread in India!

Tell us more about how you make and rise the bread. Do you mix by hand or use a mixer? How long is the rise time? How long do you proof the loaf before baking? Do you use pans or free form? How hot is your oven? It would be helpful to know if the flour you have is high or low in protein (hard wheat or soft wheat).I know there is a way of home testing how much gluten will form.MAybe someone can jump in with that.

I'm not too concerned about the extra flour amount. So much depends on how fine the flour is ground,the humidity and temperature. The density may be more a result of under/over proofing or even yeast malfunction.

An added thought about the hardness/softness of wheat. If you have the wheat berries you can try this. "Soft" wheat is really soft. If you bite a kernel of wheat and its pretty soft then it is probably a low protein wheat and not good for bread as it may not have enough gluten ability. If the kernel is a "hard" wheat,careful cause you can break a tooth!

so apologies in advance! A couple things that came to mind:

1. Do you get the atta from a store or ground at mill? It may be worthwhile to mix atta with some maida (all purpose flour) and some gluten. I've often felt that atta may be closer to whole wheat pastry flour than to whole wheat bread flour. Can you get the dough to windowpane after kneading? That may indicate that the gluten development is okay, its the proofing that needs attention.

2. Have you tried controlling temperature? I've made a "home made proofing box" to try to keep temperatures down when the starter proofs. When its over 85 degrees F (approx 30 degrees C), I've noticed that my starter sours quickly - other bacteria must outpace yeast at that temperature.

Just a couple thoughts - best of luck!

If I might ask a question and make a suggestion:  which Reinhart book are you using for the 100% wheat recipe?  If it is _Whole Grain Breads_, you might want to try a more straightforward recipe first.  The recipes in WGB are unusual, complex, seem to work better with sourdough, and have a high failure rate even for experienced bakers.  A simpler recipe from Rose Levy Beranbaum's _Bread Bible_ or from the _Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book_ would be easier to make and probably able to handle the differences in flour better than a complex Reinhart recipe.

You might also want to try starting with 50% whole wheat / 50% white (if white flour is available to you), then gradually increase the amount of whole wheat.  Going straight to 100% whole wheat can be hard.

sPh

I am a newbie myself and trying to bake good whole wheat bread.

Most of the flour brands sold in India do not specify type of wheat and protein content. I am not sure whether we can buy right wheat as most retailers will not know what kind of wheat they are selling except some market names like "golden" or "premium".

I have done some research and found out that "Ashirwad Select" is the only brand which specifies the kind of wheat used to make the flour. They use wheat grown in Madhya Pradesh called "Sharbati". According to news reports "Sharbati" is one of the best wheat grown in India and has more protein content compared to other wheat grown in India.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/1561/Grains+of+gold.html?complete=1

I have had better results with "Ashirwad Select" though not a perfect loaf. Again, I am not sure whether I have to gain more experience or flour is not suitable. Probably you can try and let us know.

Venkatesh

Seems the rising times are short.  For the final rise, let it rise until you can press a wet or floured finger lightly into the side of the rising dough, one centimeter deep, and it only half way fills in.  Almost no resistance.  Then bake.  That would be a "poke test."  See if that is where the problems lie. 

In an earlier attempt, I kept wetting my hands while kneading the dough. The dough was very, very soft, but I remember the crumb being lighter. But at the that attempt, I got the temp wrong and the loaf was a little pale.

Try again, I think it was working for you.  Sometimes it needs a little bit more water.  If your humidity is low, the extra water is needed.  Try upping the temp to 205° and see if that helps.  If the top gets too brown, cover it with a foil tent if the oven instructions allow.

If you're looking for a softer crumb, you might want to try a water roux method.  But wait on that first.  Water roux would involve mixing a few spoons of flour into the water and bring just to a boil to gel the flour, let cool and use into the dough mixture.  It should not be thicker than a pudding.   Add water as needed.

Mini

reduce the yeast.  Start by cutting it in half.  If it seems to help, reduce again.  

Thurst in dry hot weather is healthy, drink!  Could be the salt in the bread but don't remove it or the fermenting goes even faster. 

If the recipe askes for delayed salt in the mixing, don't.  Add it with the flour.  Important when temps are high to control fermenting. :)

Mini

TIP: invest in a plastic bowl scraper, and a bench knife. those two items are invaluable when handling any wet dough.

Khalid

It is so fantastic to be part of an international forum. I am not from India but am a great fan of Indian food and I am learning to cook some Southern Indian dishes. Now I'm ready to try the bread category.

The first thing I learned is:

atta flour = whole wheat flour-but read on-there is a twist to this.

maida flour = white (all purpose?) flour.

The original poster for this thread talked about atta flour,maida flour and flour obtained and ground locally in India and the stickiness of the dough and gumminess/denseness of the crumb.

 I think I found an interesting reference as to why the dough is dense and perhaps sticky. Don't be overwhelmed by the unrelated info in this paper. I never went past page 4 or 5. It actually describes the characterisitcs of the flour used for chapati and that the wheat is ground in such a way as to deliberately cause starch damage to the resulting flour so it has good characteristics for making flat bread(high stickiness and the right color). But this makes it less usable for loaf bread.Loaf bread will be gummy and the dough too sticky. Fascinating!

http://rfrost.people.si.umich.edu/courses/SI110/readings/IntellecProp/Patent_for_Naan-Atta_Flour_Milling.pdf

So atta flour is a whole wheat flour ground from hard wheat that should have plenty of gluten but it is ground in such a way that there is 13%-18% starch damage. Most loaf bread flours have about 9% starch damage according to the reference. The higher starch damage causes the dough made from the atta flour to be sticky and the crumb in a loaf bread to be gummier and dense.(It almost sounds like the characteristics of rye flour.) Atta is designed for chapati,paratha and roti, not fluffy loaf bread.

So a question: All atta flour is whole wheat but does all atta flour have a high percentage of starch damage? 

If no (not all atta has starch damage)-does atta flour for loaf bread have another name? Is there any way to tell from the packaging by( just looking at a bag of atta flour) what the starch damage percentage is?

If yes (all atta flour has a high percentage of starch damage by definitiion)- what can be added to the flour to make it usable for loaf bread? Maida? Can the wheat berries be ground differently? Home milled to minimize damage? I actually freeze my wheat berries before I grind them to minimize starch damage.Freezing prevents them from overheating during the grinding process.

Another thought is to make a loaf that will utilize the characteristics of this flour and  not fight its nature. Use the same techniques as handling rye flour or making rye bread.  Rye does make a dense but very delicious bread. It would be an interesting experiment.

I just bought some durum atta flour at a local Indian grocery store before I read about all this. Now I have some ideas about how to use it and what to expect. It will be fun to experiment both with flat breads and loaf breads.

I use Organic Atta from http://morarkaorganic.com/down_to_earth.html to make bread. the only real difference is that you must use more water.

I also use Maida flour form the same source to make a variety of Baguette type doughs. In fact for the rest of this week my breads are on show to promote the use of these flours here in Malaysia.

regards

I use whole wheat Atta (an Indian brand, not Golden Temple) from an Indian store as one of the flours in my multigrain bread. Of course it is commercially milled, so it is unlikely to have the same consistency as yours. It is actually pretty finely ground, which is why I like it.

It is labeled as 100% whole wheat durum flour. The major proteins in wheat-albumin, globulin, gliadin and glutenin (gluten)-vary in proportion according to the type of wheat. Durum wheat has a higher percentage of gliadin, and less glutenin than regular hard wheat. This makes it very extensible, but does not allow for as much rise as a high gluten flour. In addition, the larger particles of bran in the whole wheat version inhibit the formation of long gluten strands, key to a good rise. They also cause the stickiness of the dough because the bran absorbs a lot of the water, much more than the endosperm.

I have been able to get decent bread despite these traits of the flour by using a high % pre-ferment (about 90% of the total flour) poolish for 16-20 hrs and by adding 10 grams of vital wheat gluten for every 100 grams of flour in the mix. After a long pre-ferment, the bran will have absorbed all the water it can, and the dough will be less sticky. I add more flour to get a final hydration between 80% and 90% depending on what kind of bread I'm making. This is not really a very slack dough despite the hydration level, as this flour is a real water hog.

It's important to do several gentle stretch and folds on the second rise to form some surface tension on the dough, in order to get a good rise in the oven. As this dough is still pretty sticky, I don't use my hands to form the loaf, but rather use two wide spackling/plaster knives from the hardware store, sprayed with oil. The loaf itself can also be oiled to reduce stickiness. I don't recommend using the Atta itself as bench flour as it is too sticky. Semolina could be used instead. Of course you can always just bake in loaf pans, if you don't want free-standing loaves.

Cheers,

Roy

Nishil-How long are you fermenting(first rising) the dough and how long is the proofing(pan rising)? At what room temp? and how much yeast is in the recipe?

Does the dough tear  easily when you pull on it as you are shaping it or as it is rising? It almost looks like enzymes are causing the gluten to break down. I usually see this in overfermented sourdough or if an over fermented pre-ferment was used or even a very long or hot fermentation. Your loaf also appears pale and moist-2 more characterisitcs of too long a fermentation,perhaps. The sugars are digested and not available to carmelize into a brown color on the crust and when gluten is broken down by enzymes, it releases moisture. If it is fermenting in a hot environment, use less yeast and a shorter fermentation-rise til barely double only and proof in the pan a shorter period. Use cooler liquids to make the dough,also.Or try a cooler environment(if available).

Sibfuscpersona- Google was my friend.  I don't remember exactly which keywords got me to that paper but I think I searched on "India, flour milling,milling in India,problems with atta,atta for bread, atta flour" . I thought it was great in explaining the situation so I'm glad you found it useful. Seemed appropriate for this.

Keep trying,everyone. Have delicioius fun!

Nishil- It may be time to post separately with your pictures and questions. You may get more responses. It would also be helpful to know your recipe and how you make the loaves. It would also be helpful to know the room temperature when you are making the bread. How long does it take your bread to rise?

The purpose in using a smaller amount of yeast is so that it takes longer for the yeast to ferment and rise the loaf. If you are in a hot or higher altitude area, a normal amount of yeast will quickly eat all the sugars,produce goodly amounts of gas and then fizzle out. When you bake the loaf that has experienced this, and since the gluten structure of this flour is notably weak,it can collapse on itself in the oven (or even when it is touched). The interior then becomes dense and gummy and the crust is thick and pale since there are little sugars left in the dough to carmelize and brown up. You may notice that the dough tears even when you are shaping it gently to go into the pan. This can be a result of unwanted enzyme action that results either from over-fermenting or using a pre-ferment that is over fermented and then mixed into the dough.

Getting bread to puff up,hold its shape,get brown and still taste good is a balancing act. The key is to find the right ingredients handled in such a way to give you the outcome you want.Practice-practice -practice.

Use the search box and research working with whole wheat. There are some things to keep in mind when you use whole wheat that aren't a problem with maida (all purpose) flour. Rjerden spoke to this somewhat when he talked about soaking the whole wheat overnight.

The damage to the flour in the grinding process is caused by heat. If the flour gets hotter than 125F (easy to do in an already hot environment), the starch is damaged. I don't know how fine a blender will get the cracked wheat but if that is what you have available, certainly try it and see how it works. But try and keep it as cool as possible, in the process.

Start a separate post-it will be more helpful to you.