January 7, 2010 - 7:48pm
Food Safety Question About Eggs
I made challahs today that just wouldn't rise. Four loaves that should have taken a few hours to make from start to finish ended up taking 12 hours. The dough sat out on the counter for about 10 -11 hours,
Here's my concern (I tend to be very cautious of eggs and bacteria in food generally), are these challahs still safe after being out all that time? Does cooking them kill everything? I'm thinking yes, since cooking raw meat kills all (most?) of the bacteria there.
The answer may seem obvious to others, but some days I just can't convince myself I'm right.
Thanks.
Marni
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any bacteria will be dead long before your bread is done. Critters die off around 165, Most bread is baked to 185-210 deg.
Nothing to worry about if it's getting baked after the time on the counter. Consider that the way you deal with infected water is to boil it, baking breads requires higher temperatures than that so it'll cook anything harmful out.
The most likely bacteria from eggs is salmonella. We get sick from salmonella from the toxins. They don't go away with cooking. If the eggs sit on the countertop too long and the salmonella have a party the toxins are there and you're going to get sick, hot or not.
My suggestion, anything with eggs that you're concerned about-use pasturized instead.
It is the salmonella bacteria which would enter our system and make us sick.
Thorough cooking does in fact kill salmonella bacteria.
I don't understand your comments.
I have the same concerns about eggs as a bread ingredient. I've resorted to cold fermentation and doing my best to find fresh eggs.
The reason bacteria are dangerous is that they--the harmful bacteria--produce toxins. You may be able to kill the bacteria during the cooking process, but there's no guarantee that the toxins already produced will break down during that time. I once got food poisoning from a bundt cake that had been baked for almost two hours, but it wasn't a serious case of food poisoning, despite the five eggs. I found a better place to buy eggs after that incident.
The safest thing would be to have your own chickens. :)
Some bacteria are dangerous because they produce toxins (like Clostridium botulinicum), some bacteria are dangerous because they can cause infections (like Salmonella spp.), some bacteria are not dangerous at all, (like Lactobacillus spp.).
Have you read this recent thread?
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15357/do-eggs-go-bad-long-fermentation
Curious as to why those "few" hours turned into 12?
My guess is that your water temp, and room temp were too cold? What type yeast was used? Was a sufficient amount used and/or was it fresh(used recently/successfully)?
I live in the northwest and salmonella in eggs has never been a problem here to my knowledge-- I still make Caesar salad, mayo and ice cream with raw eggs, have been doing it for 50 years, and I've never gotten sick. Maybe I've just been lucky.
In any event, even if your eggs were contaminated to begin with, baking would kill any bacteria that had multiplied in just one day, assuming you purchased refrigerated eggs and they were refrigerated until use. Most recipes for challah would call for the eggs being at room temperature for nearly that long anyway (including the time required to warm the eggs to room temperature before mixing-- I sometimes leave mine out overnight if I'm baking early in the morning).
The salmonella(bacteria) is usually not to be found inside a fresh intact(no cracks) egg. It is the outside of the eggshell that is usually the source of the contamination; namely chicken feces remnants. However, many animals, including humans harbor salmonella in their intestinal tracts. So the source of contamination can be unwashed hands, etc., that then come into contact with foods that are good growing mediums for the bacteria.
So it is not regional per se. And the incubation doesn't begin until after the food is comtaminated. In this case, after the egg is cracked and the contents come in to contact with the contaminated outside of the eggshell. Ensuring that the eggs are thoroughly washed, usually can eliminate that source. So an uncracked egg sitting out on the counter is usually safe. I think I've read that often, eggs are not refrigerated in France, and I imagine other parts of Europe, and throughout the world.
Anyway, because so much hearsay is starting to fly around; some facts, from "authorities", for all it's worth:
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/salmonellosis_gi.html
How do people catch Salmonella?
Thank You everyone for your quick and helpful responses! I really do know rationally that everything is killed by the heat, but I just needed reassurance outside of my own head.
Weekend_baker, you're right that I just might not be able to get past the worry. especially since its for my kids. The challahs are pretty much a flop anyway, so as much as I hate to waste food, I'll just make freah today.
Mr.Frost - Thanks for your extensive comments. There are a few things that could have gone wrong. I bake LOTS of challah and tend to be casual about it. I think it got me yesterday - the day was crazy and I didn't pay attention to what I was doing. The most likely culprit was water that was too hot.
For those who are following this, I also found these sites:
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/bacteria/
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Egg_Products_and_Food_Safety/index.asp
http://www.eggsafety.org/f_a_q.htm
Thanks again,
Marni
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/salment_g.htm
Salmonella has been found in the interior of both meat and eggs from chickens.
I know that "eggs" are a concern to some but let us be realistic about the food safety of bread. Bread has been one of man's safest foots for thousands of years. In all of it's forms with and without eggs. Because it is baked to high temperatures that kills most if not all "bad living things". I am sure that there is some case here or there of some type of "infected" bread -- but face the fact that it is very very very rare. We live in a world full of many risks -- bread should not be one of them.
One of my best breads uses eggs, about one per loaf. I have made over 500 loafs of this bread. It is great bread. There is little risk in eating it, other than getting fat.
Enjoy your bread and don't worry, the world may end tomorrow but not from good bread.
Dave
Don't run with pointy-ended baguettes.
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~ B
From a US site: "Commercial eggs are all power-washed. Some people say unwashed eggs (if produced under hygenic, polyculture conditions like you find in small farms) are better because they naturally contain an invisible membrane on the outside of the egg that seals in air and keeps out bacteria. This is what supposedly allows you to keep them unrefrigerated. Washing eggs removes this natural membrane, and commercial producers have to spray the eggs with a substitute sealant. Of course, that artificial sealant isn't as effective as nature's, so here in the US, unrefrigerated eggs spoil very quickly."
In UK eggs are not refrigerated by suppliers (what happens in domestic situations is usually different but not in this house) and washed eggs aren't allowed to be sold.
Any commercially produced eggs with faecal deposits are used commercially and not sold by retail.