WW Bread
I was reading a post from..I think..Tessa? Where she was desribing a problem with her WW dough tearing. This post was a couple of weeks ago. I have had the very same problem! I started making bread again in the last few months, after taking a few years off. I don't remember having this problem before, but it was a long time ago, so I may not remember quite right. I posted a question a couple of weeks ago, desribing my bread as "lumpy" on top. It's hard to explain, it just doesn't come out looking beautiful. After reading Tessa's desription of the dough tearing, I realized that I should have mentioned that. One answer was to limit the oil I was using--it didn't make any difference. I have adjusted everything I know of, exept the kneading time. I use a Bosch Universal Mixer on #2 for 8 to 10 minutes (depending on if I make 2 or 3 loaves). One poster commented that she (or he) kneaded for "as long as it took", sometimes as long as 30 minutes. I am wondering if this person was kneading by hand or using a machine? Does it sound like my problem could be solved by more or longer kneading? I should mention that I am using hard red and hard white (50/50) and I have quite a bit of it, so I have to make the best of it.
1234,
It would help if you could post your ingredients list or recipe so we could help you better.
That said, I suggest you think in terms of developing the gluten by hand by folding, rather than by using the mixer. Use the mixer if you wish to "Mix" the ingredients well. That should take no more than 2 minutes on the low speed. Then using a plastic scraper or spatula, dump it in a largish bowl covered. After about 45 minutes, using the scraper, fold the dough onto itself about 10 times, trying to stretch it each time you scoop under and pull up, then rotate and do again. Repeat this procedure 2-3 times. Each time you fold, the dough will look and feel better. You will start to feel strength in every pull. The last fold should be dusted with flour and pre shaped on the counter. After a short 15 minute rest you can proof in a basket or free form as you prefer and bake normally.
The above procedure will work well if the hydration is above 65% so the dough isn't to stiff for easy folding. Remember, using Whole grain flours for a portion of the total flours will require additional water than when using standard Bread Flour.
Hope this helps. Please let us know if you have questions.
Eric
Hi Eric,
I started to reply to you, when all at once I found myself at Amazon,com! That was weird! I hope you did not get half of a message! Anyway, I used a no-knead method (stretch an fold) last week, making a boule. The dough didn't break, but didn't rise as well as I would have liked, either. I will try again, using your suggestions. Here is my recipe:
3 cups water
1tbs + 1 heaping tsp. yeast
2c. ww flour
1/2 cup honey
I let that make a sponge for 30-45 min.
2tsp salt
1/2 oil
1/2tsp glutin
1tbs dough conditioner
6 more c. ww flour
Try cutting the yeast in half and skip the honey in the sponge.
Then if you want, add some honey in the dough (2 T max).
Also I would drop the dough conditioner and gluten and cut the oil in half.
Once you get this to work, you can play with tuning the honey and oil a little. The Whole Wheat flour has plenty of gluten, you don't need to be adding any.
In general less yeast will slow things down and allow the natural development of gluten with time. Don't be in a hurry, wait for the sponge to be all bubbly and peaking in activity before mixing the dough.
You didn't say but this should be done at room temp. (72-76F). The temp will matter if you are more than a few degrees from that range. Use the water to adjust the dough temp as you mix the sponge.
Eric
Wow!
That's scary. You sound like you know what you're talking abut, so I'll try it. It sounds as though I've pretty much got it all wrong. Have you ever heard of the grain being a problem? In the post that I originally refered to, it was suggested that there was a milling problem with the grain that she bought. Well, tomorrow I'll try it again, and I will let you know how I do. Thanks again! BTW, many of you sound like you are a tad bit more than AMATEUR bakers! :)
1234,
Eric Hanner really knows his stuff, but don't be intimidated. You don't necessarily have it all wrong, but there are a variety of ways to make 100% whole wheat bread. By removing extraneous ingredients and following the "stretch and fold" method (rather than the "knead the helloutofit" method), you are simplifying both the recipe and the technique. Eliminating variables is an excellent way to get to the root of problems.
I suppose it's possible that your flour is bad, but unless you're buying from someone who has milled the grain in his kitchen, then it's pretty rare (I would think) to come across poorly milled flour. If you have any doubt, pick up a bag of King Arthur Whole Wheat.
If you're passionate about whole wheat bread and continue to have trouble, I recommend Peter Reinhart's book on the topic. It's thorough, well-written, easy to follow, and has some well-tested recipes.
Please keep us posted on your progress, and good luck!
Eric B.
Oh, all you Erics are so smart. :) Actually I would be the one who mills the wheat in my kitchen. However, I have played around with the coarseness of the flour, and it really didn't make much of a difference. In my original remarks, I refered to a comment by, I think it was Tessa, who had a problem with her ww dough breaking. THAT conversation led to the possibility that the GRAIN she bought was questionable. So, I just wondered if that was possible in my case. But probably not and it is just a matter of me getting the whole thing right. I have a lot of experimenting to do, I can see that. I really appreciate everyones insite!
In developing a new bread recipe, if I used whole wheat flour, with soy flour for a percentage of flour total, how would I calculate the amount of vital wheat gluten to add to compensate for the lack of gluten in the soy?
1234,
After sleeping on my comments to you about your WW bread, I should have suggested that you first try substituting 1/2 of the flour for All Purpose flour. At least try this first to get a feel for folding and gluten development. The bread will have a similar flavor to a 100% WW bread and I think you will gain the confidence of working with a blend of flours that is easier to work with.
Where are you located in the world?
Eric
Good Morning!
I am located in the Atlanta area. Woodstock. actually. (I'm a yankee transplant. :))Where are you?
Hi Eric,
Today I made a sponge (with less yeast and no honey). I took rosalie's advice and put it in the fridge overnight Tomorrow, I'll make 50/50 ww and white flour (actually I'm using KA unbleached AP flour). I'll let you know how it turns out! BTW- I think Floyd is going to let me change my name to sexysadie. :)
Sadie,
For now, save that container of conditioner in a safe spot for later use. You won't need it for any conventional breads I know about.
As for refrigerating the sponge, that shouldn't be necessary if you tone down the yeast so it is peaking in about 8 -10 hours. I prefer to leave any preferment on the counter or at 72-78F and let it work. Yes you can cool it to prevent it from running flat or going past peak but it works better in my opinion if you cut back on the yeast so the food lasts longer. I typically use 1/4 teaspoon of Instant dry Yeast in 300 grams(approx 2 cups) of AP flour and leave it overnight. It's fine the next day. I usually add a like amount of water by weight.
Hope this helps.
Eric
Hi Eric! What an incredible difference! The crust is soooo good! It's crunchy and chewy at the same time! AND the crumb is 100% better. My family agrees, it's the best bread I have ever made. Thank you so much for your help, and everyone else that contributed. How does it look?
Your bread looks great. You should be proud.
This thread is a wonderful example of how bakers can reach out to help one another.
Happy Baking and Keep Visiting
Thank you! I can't tell you how much the advice I received means to me. I have been at it for many years, and have never been truely content with the result until now. Now--onwards and upwards!!!
Now THAT'S a nice looking loaf. Sorry I'm late to the party, I didn't see your last bread post. I would work on that bread a few times making small changes one at a time so you can tell what happens. Really happy this worked out for you.
Eric
Thanks, bread buddy. :)