Thin Crispy Crust on pizza
I love making pizza and it's done pretty often around my house..indoors and in the wfo. So all these pizza's on TFL lately have really been giving me the craving! I used the Neo-Neapolitan Pizza Dough recipe from PR American pie book. I made dough with KAAP and KAB flours. This is a recipe that makes a thin crisp crust with airy pockets in the crown. Usually I make a thicker crust for use with heavier toppings like sausage or pepperoni and the extra cheeses and tomato that we like...but this time wanted the heavier toppings with the Thin and Crispy crust...It's a little sticky and a touch tricky to handle...as stated in the book.. Well, I've had enough practice now that it's become fun and consistant to make great tasteing pizza's. Useing the KAAP flour makes the dough even a little more stickier...but with a little practice the dough can be shaped fast with only a little added flour on the peel! Tonight I wanted a thin, crispy crust with extra's,...I used the AP flour dough balls out of my freezer. I love the tomato sauce with the spices, herbs, garlic, several cheese blends, fresh garden basil, EVOO and sausage on this one pictured..the other 2 were devoured to fast to get photos. I went pretty heavy on all the toppings and still got a great crust that stood up, crispy, crunchy and very tastey. Also this dough was frozen and thawed. Another plus for convenience! One thing I do to assure the crust stays crispy is to always place it either on a paper sack..grocery bags are great...or saved cardboard. I place the bag on top of a cutting board and slice...it then is served on paper plates...another plus for cleanup time.. If you put your pizza onto a pizza pan or a plate your going to get a soggy crust real fast. The crust has a fantastic flavor!
Baked at 550F on 1 hour pre-heated stones indoor convection oven
Lot's of thick tomato sauce under the cheeses, and carmelized on top of the bubbles!
Thin, Crispy, Crunchy enough to hold that piece of sausage and cheese on the tip without folding under...nice crispy, crunchy, bubble in the crown!
The dough was stretched out thin enough to see through and the crown left a little thicker..placed directly onto a lightly floured paddle after being shaped between my two palms and flipped back and forth over my wrists and gently stretched in my hands and topped and slid onto the stone and baked about 6 minutes.
Sylvia
Comments
wow I don't have 550 on my oven...Mattie says to use the broiler...I need to try and leave it long enough...sigh...I get to impatient. Yours looks so GOOD !! c
Thank you! The hotter the stone/oven the better the results on the crust. My stones sit on the bottom shelf. I also let the stone pre-heat a little more for the next pizza. It's surprising how much heat the pizza takes out of the stones so waiting a few minutes before putting the next pizza in does make a difference on the crust!
Sylvia
Caroline,
I use the broiler only during the inital pre-heat of the oven, it really gets the temp of the stone up quicker than just having the oven on and heating only the air in it......if you try my method don't forget to turn your oven back to the BAKE setting before you put your pizza in there or you'll get a really charred pizza! I am still loving that little pizza oven I got a few weeks ago, we had pizza tonight and the last ones cooked in under 2 minutes.......it still amazes me. mattie
Hmm. Here in Missouri we call that burnt.
The underside of the pizza is evenly browned...not like the ones out of my WFO...we like those with a little more burnt on the bottom of the crust!
Sylvia in San Diego
There is no way that pizza is burnt ;)
I had to wipe the saliva off my keyboard LOL
looks good! :)
Hi TeaIV, Thank you!
Sylvia
Sylvia,
Looks delicious from here!
Eric
Thank you, Eric! Pizza is what brought me to TFL!
Sylvia
Your pizzas always look soooo good!
Marni
Hi Marni, Thank you for the nice compliment!
Sylvia
Silvia, that is a tasty looking pizza. I like pizza too. I like thin crust New York syle as well as Chicago Deep Dish Pizza. I have finally mastered pizza on the grill both on gas and on charcoal-my Kamado. I like to make pizza ahead of time(days) then use dough the next day while freezing remainder as balls.
I use unglazed tiles from Home Depot for cooking on my gas grill. I heat the tiles from the start so they won't crack from thermal shock.
P.S. Notice link on word Kamado above.
Bix
Yours is gorgeous! You got the fancy one with the tiles! A while back I read all about them and they get so hot...perfect for pizza's or whatever you want to cook, bake, or bar-b-que! If I didn't have a wfo oven...this would certainly be my choice! Your pizza looks absolutely wonderful. Have you ever baked bread in it or tried heating your Kamado up even hotter than 550... and put the pizza directly on the tiles and bake only for a few minutes? Thank you for shareing your photos...they are great!
Sylvia
Silvia, here is a link to my first and only bread experience on Kamado: Bread.
You will see pictures of smoking of cheese also. I was looking into WFOs when I discovered the Kamado. I do a fair amount of smoking and slow cooking bbq on the Kamado. I've made my best pizza on the Kamado. Steaks are fantastic on the Kamado as is Prime Rib, turkey, duck and goose. I can cook pulled pork and brisket at the same time, using one to baste the other, on to levels. I am able to hold the temperature within 2 degrees at the lower temperatures using a temperature control device. The Kamado is easy to maintain and is good yard art.
I don't even cover the Kamado. I clean occasionally with soapy water.
Bix
The cooking you do on your Kamado has left me drooling to say the very least and you smoke your cheese in it too, fantastic! The neighborhood must go crazy with the aromas coming from your home! First and only bread in it you did great!
Sylvia
Great idea about using paper sacks to keep the crust crispy! Your pizza looks delicious. We just got back from a week in SC and have no bread or starter ready so I'd better get to work and pizza sounds like a good way to get going.
--Pamela
I bet you had a great vacation!...TFL has missed you! The paper sacks come in handy for a few things besides keeping the crust nice... they also save the mess on my wood cutting board and transporting any extra pizza's to the neighbors and maybe you could count it as recycled!
Sylvia
Sylvia, why don't you use parchment on the stone?
Syb
I don't need it! Parchment is great if you have a problem with your pizza dough sticking to your paddle or trouble slideing it into the oven. Then I would recommend it but if it's not needed why use it? With practice! I can now make and transport my pizza directly on the paddle into the oven onto the stone.
Sylvia
I think I remember that you are using a Super Peel. Wooden peels are a little more prone to sticking. And then there is the mess factor. Parchment helps if stuff spills off. I also use parchment because it allows me to have a 2nd pizza all ready to go in the oven while the first one is cooking.
--Pamela
I have a Super Peel and they are a great help if anything sticks. I haven't used it since I learned how to handle my pizza dough. Before when learning to get my pizza dough to the WFO..I would use the Super Peel to get my counter formed pizza dough onto my WFO long handled pizza peel's...very hot oven and requires one of my apx. 5 or 3 foot handled metal peels. That was a lot of work until I learned how to do it without the Super Peel. I have used it to lift pie crust or either roll my pie crust onto my pin..both work about the same for pie. Transporting Baguettes, Boules, Ciabiatta, all my breads now are put directly either onto the flipping board or a peel...this is when I sometimes use parchment paper! It has all come with practice and my Super Peel has pretty much become retired! The Super Peel is a fantastic gadget and I highly recommend them...I would not part with mine...you never know when it might come in handy!
It only takes me a few seconds to make a pizza..so I make them as Im ready to put them into the oven. I have no more mess..I use a tiny bit of flour carefully rubbed into my wooden peel..and I use very little flour now forming my pizza...just comes with practice and now it's a breeze for me..no more flour mess!
Sylvia
Interesting Sylvia. I'll have to put some more practice on my wooden peel!!!
--Pamela
Some prefer the wooden peel and some the metal indoors. I think the wooden peel works best for me and the little flour you put on it can be rubbed into it...with the metal it just sort of floats around..I think if you have enough flour on the 'bottom of your pizza dough' then a metal peel maybe? I just don't like having any extra flour floating around..you might find it easier also to keep a little jar of flour and semolina 'pasta grade' mixed together for on the peel..it helps the sliding off the peel....but I don't use it unless the dough is completely shaped and then tossed onto the peel and then topped...I don't want the semolina getting into the dough! I have done this method before...but I find just flour works ok with a bit of practice. Just keep your pizza dough moving once it's on the peel...little jerks back and forth...no time to stick! If it does pick up the stuck part and blow a little flour under it.
Sylvia
OK, Sylvia. Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a try. My pizza paddle is really ancient (I think I've had it for 25 years). It is made out of a light wood and is thicker in the middle than on the sides. It seems to get stuck as I sauce and top the pizza. Are you saucing and topping your pizza before or after you put it on the peel?
--Pamela
Sounds like a good pizza peel. I top my pizza on the peel. I'll will try to explain what I do.
I just got through making pizza for my son's visit with his wife and my grandaughter. I wanted to pick something easy and it worked out great..Everyone enjoyed pizza, salad's, pound cake with fresh strawberries and whip cream. It was a breeze because everything can be ready ahead of time..except assembly of the pizza and that only takes a few minutes till it's done.
I made the dough the day before useing PR Neo N. recipe with KABF. and used my Kitchen Aid Mixer for this batch. I make 4 large balls out of one recipe..I find it easier to make a large pizza...I have a couple of very wide paddles. One for making the pizza on and one to take it out of the oven.
Preheat your oven and stone for an hour 550
1. Have everything right next to your prep area..individual dough balls in oiled plastic bags, small bowl of flour, bowl of shredded cheese, other cheeses, bowl of tomatoe sauce with spoon, basil...what ever you plan to put on your pizza..have it right next to your paddle ...I lay out a large kitchen towel topped with a large glass counter protector and lay my paddle on top of the glass. Everything is ready in bowls so I can dip my fingers into the toppings. A towel to keep things dry..fingers, counter, paddle etc.
Have your sheets of parchment paper handy if your pizza sticks! This is a good idea until you get routine or have company that may distract you.
2. Rub flour all over your paddle top.
3. Take a dough ball out...it should feel good and have enough oil on it not to stick to your hands. Lay it onto the floured peel..Very important> Poke it with your finger tips into a nice size circle about the size of your hand with fingers spread wide apart!
4. Pick it up with a little flour on your hands holding it from underneath...It should have enough flour on it picked up from what was on the board not to stick to your hands. Flour your hands if needed...a little more on the paddle if needed..I don't find that I have to put flour on top of the pizza if I touch it I used flour dipped fingers..I flip the dough back and forth between my hands, with your hands underneath stretch it gently...flip it back and forth...supporting it between the two palms of my hands...my dough just drops into a large round shape quickly from this action..I flip it onto the flour rubbed board..poke it into a nice shape around the crown area to shape a crown thickness. If there is any wet area under the pizza or if it sits to long it's going to stick..so if anything looks like it's going to stick ..pick up the dough.... put a little flour under that area on the board....put the dough back down..give it a little shapeing if needed...shake your paddle...if the dough slides...time to top it!
4. With the dough moving freely on the lightly floured paddle...Quickly top your pizza..it's ok to shake the paddle and make sure the pizza is moving freely before you add some more toppings...don't take to long putting on the tomato sauce...put your sauce..tomatoes..what ever you first layer is..use a light touch..don't push down on the dough! Check it by shaking the paddle..if it sticks..blow or through a little flour under the stuck area..put your cheeses on then the rest of your toppings...Pick up the paddle shake it back and forth quick little jerks..keep it moving all the way to the oven..slide it into the oven by touching the tip of the paddle down where the pizza will come off in the oven..then give little quick jerks back and forth pulling the paddle out from under the pizza laying it onto the stone.
5. If things get really stuck...put some parchment on your paddle and push it under the stuck area of the pizza and pull it onto the parchment paper ; )
This would be a breeze to watch but I'm not to good at writing it out..let me know if I can explain anything better!
Once you can do nearly all the shapeing of the pizza dough 'off' the paddle' and on your hands...half the batttle is won..and your pizza dough will be so much more lighter and tender because it won't be overhandled...the flipping back and forth over your hands really strecthes the dough fast into a large circle. The less you handle the dough the easier and faster it will stretch...I try to make each movement count...Try making your first pizza's with just tomato sauce and cheese until you get the hang of it...less is more.
Sylvia
Thanks so much Sylvia for writing out this long post for me. I've printed it out and will let you know how it goes. Again, thanks for all your help.
--Pamela
Pie ; )
I've got one in the works and will save a piece for you.
--Pamela
Ok, I'm going to get a new oven soon, but for the moment, what would you recommend as the solution to this problem?
I'm using an oven that only reaches 400F, and have a pizza stone on the oven floor that gets preheated with the oven for one HOUR before sliding the BBA Neapolitana thin crust onto it. The crust still doesn't turn out very crispy, and I've already stretched it very very thin.
I know, I know, get a new oven. But what else, for the time being? Switch to a cast iron griddle instead of the stone? Abandon thin crust attempts? Try a different recipe?
There has been some disscussion about heating your stone under the broiler...I have no experience with this so I can't really say how it would work but I think this might be your best bet!. I've never tried to cook a pizza below 500F....550 is where you are going to get the best results. I have one of those counter top Wolf Gang Puck convection ovens (ordered it from Home Shopping Network on TV) that does rotisserie, bakes, broils, and even came with a pizza stone, paddle and directions...I can't remember but I think it was just a little over a 100 bucks...I've had it for a few years and it makes great little pizzas, rotisserie chicken, etc. best 100 bucks I ever spent..I use it all the time for warming, cooking, baking, even proofs, dehydrates...I used to make pizza in it all the time...pre-heating the stone is what makes it work for the pizza...oven goes to about 450 and the stone is very thin less than a half inch! I don't think it makes much difference if you are making a thin or thick crust...you need the stone to be very hot!
Sylvia
Thanks, Sylvia, I'll try that, but this is a wimpy electric oven, so I'm not sure the stone would get any hotter sitting right below the top element than it would sitting right above the bottom element. I'm going to try cast iron next, heating that to nice and hot but short of smoke point on the gas stove's burners, then plopping the raw pizza on that, and moving it into the preheated oven.
Yesterday I accidentally set the wrong temp when preheating for an onion-and-herb ciabatta (PR's BBA) and didn't discover it until I pulled the ciabatta out. It didn't have a good crust, especially the bottom. So I rescued it by doing something similar this morning -- preheating the cast iron griddle, although well short of smoking, and plopping it on there for a while, then moving the ciabatta, sans griddle, to a properly preheated oven to finish it. The result was a nice, crispy crust, top and bottom. There wasn't any risk of drying the ciabatta out from a 2nd bake, due to the extra moisture from the onions and the olive oil in it. This method should work for reheating pizza, too.
Yeah, well, my cheap oven only gets up to 365F, and it hasn't made my cast iron skillet smoke. I ordered a new oven today that supposedly reaches 482F, so we'll see if that's a problem. If it is, I'll just get a dedicated skillet or griddle for it.
Sylvia, First I would like to say that everything you post looks absolutely wonderful! Thank you for sharing! Like you, pizza dough is what has brought me to TFL. I have finally found a pizza crust that looks exactly like what I have been trying to do for a long time…I’ve lost count of the number of different recipes I have experimented with and now I’m finally close thanks to you. I now know some of the things I need to correct: my oven temperature (fortunately I have an oven that heats up to 550F), pre-heat my stone longer, don’t overwork my dough and put cook pizzas on a paper bag or cardboard.
I do have a few questions about the ingredients you used for this particular pizza crust. From your post, it was made using Peter Reinhart’s Neo-Neapolitan Pizza Dough recipe from American Pie with AP flour. For the Neo-Neapolitan Pizza Dough recipe, there are several ingredients that have different options: unbleached high-gluten, bread or all-purpose flour; sugar or honey; table or kosher salt; olive or vegetable oil or solid vegetable shortening. Also stated in American Pie is that oil or another fat is usually not needed in dough made with all-purpose flour. My questions are:
1. Did you omit the oil/fat since you used all-purpose flour?
2. If you used a fat, did you use oil olive, vegetable oil or solid vegetable shortening? If so, what brand?
3. Did you use sugar or honey?
4. Did you use table salt or kosher salt?
5. Did you use ADY or IADY?
6. Did you use regular tap water? If not, what did you use? The reason I ask if because I read that spring water is a better choice.
One more question, have you ever made this recipe using wheat flour? If so, what measurements and modifications did you make? Thank you so much for your time!
Chris
Hello Chris and welcome to TFL! Thank you for the nice compliments.
The flour I almost always use is KABF and KAAP flour. KAAP flour can be used in a lot of recipes that call for a 'bread flour' unless stating a 'strong bread flour' then I would usually use the KABF. I've been very statisfied with King Arthur flours and they are the most readily available to me and I have occassionally ordered the OO flour. I've used both KA flours in my pizza's and have been very satisfied with the flavor and results. Freezing the dough does lend it to be more extensible so I use a little less IADY and don't freeze it very long, usually only a week or so. Sometimes I like shaping the dough thick sometimes thinner, just depends on whats going on top. I think all the dough recipes in PRAP make wonderful pizza's.
I like a pizza dough with EVOO, it does make for a more tender crust. I buy OO's usually at my local Trader Joe's where the flavor and price are great for me as I use a lot of both reg and EVOO's. Occasionally I'll splurge on gourmet a brand.
Question 1. I use EVOO from Italy with KAAP or KABF in my dough if the recipe calls for oil.
2. I use EVOO in and on my pizza's. I like a brand from Italy and usually purchase it from Trader Joe's and sometimes splurge on a gourmet brand of EVOO from local markets.
3. I always use a mild clover honey.
4. I always use a natural sea salt
5. I use IADY
6. I order 'Mountain Valley Spring Water', special for my bread making, it comes in green glass bottles. It's delicious, to say the very least and I enjoyed it for years working in the hotels in LV. I can't think of one hotel that didn't carry it and they always had the best quality of foods and drinks available.
7. I don't add any other flours...I think that's pretty traditional and that's what I want, If I try a different crust I usually save some from a bread I'm baking... I've used JH Vermont sourdough and made a nice pizza.
Happy Pizza making,
Sylvia
Sylvia,
Thank you for the quick and detailed reply! Exactly what I wanted to know. I will post a pizza when I have one worthy of posting. Thank you again!
Chris
I'm sure your as excited about making pizza as I'am for you. I love seeing pizza's and looking forward to your seeing posts from you.
Sylvia