Jason’s Ciabatta Please Help!

I had to be away from my computer all day, and now so many responses!  Thank you everyone for hearing my sad, squeeky call.

This morning I made a batch of dough as per CAMPCOOK i.e. a la autolyse/no-knead:  Mixed dry ingredients then ice cold water, only until everything is moistened and a shaggy wet dough is formed and left in fridge for about 10 hrs.  When i came home I took out the dough there was only the slightest yeast activity started.  But even though wet, there was bouce and stretch in the dough that I could feel with my fingers.  I felt heartened and transferred the dough on to a wetted surface.  I wet my hands and started to french fold, I guess which is a more vigorous stretch and fold, as per ALABUBBA and summer baker.  The dough I thought was coming together but  within 2-3 mins I felt it become goopier and then it became LIQUID, just what happens to me every time?!?!?!......I have scraped it back into the bowl and let it rise at cool RT ON as per no-knead.  But I know this dough won't give me that ciabatta tomorrow.

I just don't get what I can be doing wrong.

This time i made from a new bag of flour (GM unbleached, never had issues) and brand new yeast (F's active dry) to iron out any unpredictable variables.

I did bake the previous mishappen dough like a focaccia by pouring into a 17 x 12 pan with some olive oil and letting it rise again (which it didn't). The flavor was actually very good probably because I was using slow cool fermentation but it turned out to be an interesting CRACKER with a thin layer chewiness in the middle.  No oven spring and no heigh at all.

As campcook suggests i have to keep rolling with it till I get it.  It works for all of you, so eventually I will figure it out.

I will keep you posted.

Thaks again for your time.

K.

Ok, I am looking at the dough from last night.

Now it’s not a wet dough but a very liquid batter.  The yeast has proofed A LOT.  The batter if foamy through and through but with no rise.  It looks kind of like a very wet, very active, sourdough starter but with NO GLUTEN STRANDS.  I am telling you, the gluten is disappearing from the flour.  Something is digesting the gluten. It does not smell that yeasty but has over-fermented smells.  But I added only about ¼ tsp yeast (active dry, just thrown into the flour, not dissolved in warm water) to the 500 gms flour to do slow fermentation.  How can the yeast have gone so far?  And the temperature in my kitchen ON was only 63F.  In the no-knead recipes I used to make…there is ¼ tsp yeast in about 3 cups of flour and it goes for 18 hours or more to develop (not over develop) at higher temps, 68-70F.

So, I think I have two problems.  Gluten may be breaking down and the dough is fermenting in an undesired way.

Is the yeast becoming over-activated for some reason or is some other organism growing in the dough?  Mind you this was fresh yeast taken out from a new packet, and a new bag of flour and the dough was started with ice cold water and sat in the fridge for some hours.  Then when I started to stretch and fold the cold dough it broke down pretty quickly.  If I assume that it is actually gluten breaking down then it probably isn’t from enzymes leaching out of a strange bug.  There simply wasn’t enough time for enough numbers of bugs to grow to make enough enzyme at such cold temps to break down the gluten so rapidly.  Then it is something chemical that is already present in the material, water, flour salt or yeast.

I checked the pH of my tap water which I use.  pH 5.0 or a little less.  I checked the ph of Poland Spring water which we drink. Also pH 5.0 or a little less.  I checked the pH of low fat milk, pH 7.0.  So is pH 5.0 too low for proper fermentation of regular yeast? 

I used Himalayan pink sea salt, which I now use for all my cooking.  I can’t imagine that being a problem but I will check out that variable. Maybe there is one mineral in there that is good for health but disastrous for yeast/gluten/bread-baking.

An important point maybe:  The dough turning liquid starts and/or is accelerated by mixing or stretching.

I have no ideas about the over-fermentation.  What could be happening to the yeast?  What else could be contaminating the dough so quickly? Why would an ON proof with a small amount of yeast at 63F be completely over-fermented? Even sourdough does not develop so fast, right?

 Anyone have any ideas what is happening to my dough?

I am off to try some experiments. At this point I am going to concentrate on the gluten because I think some other organism is probably very unlikely. 

K.  

Life is distracting me right now but I have a lot to report, all of it good. I did a slew of mini experiments all Sunday long as well as watched all the videos and picture-tutorials with skinned eyes.  I made a quantum leap of progress and learning.  My ciabatta worked!  Not perfect this first time but easily improved hereafter.  

Thank you guys for all the kind pointers and encouragement.  I could not have done it without you and my dogged persistence.  I can give myself a little pat on the back for not giving up and making it.  I even cleaned up the kitchen after 12:30AM. 

I will report back and hope someone can comment on what I observed/learned.

K.   

Most of you probably know what I am going to say here, already having done all of it before.   But this is my little tempest in a teapot that taught me a LOT: certainly several  specifics of making this bread dough and bread in general,  but also how certain observations can lead you to wrong conclusions, especially with little knowledge at hand.

Ok,  I was autolysing my dough for Jason’s ciabatta for about 20 mins at which point it turned firm and had some bounce but then when I did repeated stretch and folds in the bowl or turned it out to do some French folds  on the counter the dough quickly turned in to a drippy liquid like eggs that have been beaten with sugar or a stretchy batter.  Then when I left it to rise, it never rose, just became a foamy liquid.  I wanted to figure out what was turning my dough liquid as I was handling it, what was happening to the gluten?  The recipe said to beat the H--- out of the dough so it would seem you would have to really stir/beat/fold till it hurt to get adequate gluten development.   However within mins, just a few folds, the gluten appeared to be destroyed and never came.  Could it be something chemical I am introducing because it was all happening so quickly?  But I couldn’t understand why it was happening just as I started to handle it (that was an important clue).  Or could be something enzymatic from some organism that was introduced but then how would it happen so quickly?

I first wanted to check out ingredients one by one, specifically the water and salt keeping flour constant.

I mixed the following and set aside to autolyse for about 20 mins:

1)      125 gms of Gold Medal UBAP flour  + 118 gms of TAP water (ph ~5.0) (~95% hydration)

2)      125 gms of Gold Medal UBAP flour  + 118 gms of Poland spring water (ph ~5.0) (~95% hydration)

3)      125 gms of Gold Medal UBAP flour  + 118 gms of Poland spring water (ph ~5.0 + 3 gms of Himalayan salt) (~95% hydration)

4)      125 gms of Gold Medal UBAP flour  + 125 gms of low fat milk (ph ~5.0) (~95% hydration)

5)      125 gms of Gold Medal UBAP flour  + 94 gms of Poland spring water (ph ~5.0) (~75% hydration)

6)      125 gms of Gold Medal UBAP flour  + 118 gms of TAP water (ph ~8.0)  + a little crushed calcium/magnesium supplement(~95% hydration)

(a)    (1) and (2) was to see if there was anything in my tap water that was noxious or if such low pH was a problem.

(b)   (3) was to see if there was some strange mineral in Himalayan salt that was causing a problem

(c)    (4) was to see how milk, with a neutral pH and a high mineral content, affected the dough in place of water.

(d)   (5) was to check if it simply is a quirk of high hydration that I couldn’t handle and lower hydration would work for me.

(e)   (6) was to check if I could solve the problem by increasing the hardness of the water.

This is what I found:

 (A) In each and every case after 20 mins of autolysis the dough had firmed up and had some stretch and bounce in it and was not so sticky.  The order of firmness and bounce was 

5)  75% hydration with PS water  >

4) milk >

2) PS water >

1) tap water >

2) tap water with salt > and

6) tap water with added minerals

So the autolysis part was working for each ingredient as expected.  PS water was probably better than tap water because it was harder.  Presence of salt is known to inhibit autolysis, nothing dramatic there.  The added minerals made the water alkaline so it had diminished gluten forming ability. 

The surprise to me was milk.  Is milk known to make good dough like this? Even though it was such a high hydration it felt good. 

       (B)  In each every case after I took the piece of firm dough and started to do French Folds on it on the counter, the dough started to get soft and then sticky and goopy and then turn liquid and drippy in less than 2-3 mins.  The ease with which the dough fell apart was the same order as above.  No matter what ingredient I was using the dough was falling apart every time.  So it probably had to be my handling. 

        (C) I scraped the drippy dough back into the bowls and let it rest 15-20 mins.  Then I gently did 3 or 4 (wet) stretch and folds on it.  To my surprise the dough became smooth and came together.  It was slack but not drippy and held together.   I continued and did 3 more stretch and fold cycles at 15-20 min intervals.  There may be was some further improvement it the ‘tightness’ of the gluten development but not much.  The most happened in the first or by the second cycle of S & F.  The final ‘tightness’ of the dough and gluten development still reflected the order in (A) and at I could not improve it by any kind of manipulation I was doing. 

So the dough can become drippy but at least in the above cases it will come together after resting and some S & Fs.

I did not think of it then but at this point I should have done another experiment.  I should have made a dough of flour + PS water (95% hydration), autolyse and then NOT done the French Folding that turns it in to a drippy mess but go to gentle S & Fs and see what happened.  I suspect that might not have worked.  Both alubabba and ejm’s tutorial worked the dough for a while in some manner before resting and then doing the S & Fs. But you never know.

         (D)  After the S & Fs I stirred the doughs in the bowl vigorously or did a few more S & Fs in the bowl and soon enough the dough became very goopy again.  And I could not bring it back together again.

        At this point I took all your tips and what I just learned and  made a full recipe by mixing the four and water, autolyse for 20 mins, then French fold it till it became absolutely drippy, incorporated the yeast and salt during turning the drippy stuff and put it back in the bowl to proof.   At about 20 min intervals I did very gentle S & Fs and returned the dough back to the bowl best I could for three cycles.   Finally let it proof till triple and shaped, proofed and baked according to the recipe/videos above.  Needless to say I mangled the shape some but it came out like a great ciabatta!  

These are my CONCLUSIONS:

1)      The autolysis firms up the dough in a major way, and the quality of the liquid used affects this step  significantly.  Salt and alkaline conditions inhibit it.  Milk and lower pH are good.

2)      French folding (in my hands) right after the autolysis seems to break down the gluten formation and made the firm dough drippy.

3)      The ‘broken down’ dough can be made to come back together to a cohesive smooth dough with adequate gluten ‘function’ if allowed to rest and a few S & Fs.  I did not do this previously.

4)       After a smooth dough has formed any vigorous kneading kind of action can breakdown the gluten again and it may not be possible to reform the gluten.

5)      Don’t underestimate the power of French Folds or S & Fs.  They can bring about gluten ‘movement’ with great ease, something that is done with great energy from a mixer or kneading.  

6)      Do not combine two methods without knowing what you are doing:  I did French Fold till when the dough got drippy then I let it go for a long slow proof a la no-knead instead of doing S & Fs and a quick proof.  The no-knead method of long slow proofing is supposed to knead the dough thoroughly and I guess in my case the dough got over-kneaded to the point it broke down the gluten structure completely.

7)      It is completely possible to make great bread from this incredibly wet dough without a mixer.  It may be possible to simplify it further (than the way I have done it here) as per CAMPCOOK.

This is what I am still confused about/have questions about

(a)    From 1) why does milk work so well to form the gluten during autolysis (and later)?

(b)   From 2) I have very little experience kneading dough right after adding water with or without yeast.  Why did the dough break down like that French Folding? Would classical kneading have done the same?  Actually it seemed to me that kneading (or any vigorous stretchy movement) would have done the same.  What was happening to the gluten at this time? it was in the process of rearranging?  If I continued to French Fold as I was and did not stop what might have happened?  Does everyone go through this kind of a phase when kneading, it is just exaggeratedly more obvious in a very wet dough?

(c)     From 1) and 2) what would happen if you  mixed the autolysed dough only enough to just incorporate the yeast and salt (assuming most of the firmness developed during autolysis remained)and let the dough proof as usual as usual with maybe a few S & Fs?  Would there have been adequate gluten without the initial messy working of the dough?

I felt this was good.  A few more Sundays of exhaustive experiments and I think I might actually be able to make bread.

I hope some enlightened person might stop by and shed some light on my questions.

Thank you so much for your encouragement!  And sorry this is unedited and so long!

K. 

Now I am a thinking again.  I read Eric's thread "Eye Opening Techniques".  He says he mixes the dough and sets it aside for an hour which sounds essentially like a autolyse or will function to autolyse some.  Then he gives the dough a few SECONDS of French Fold and that is all that is needed.  On occasion he will do a few S & Fs but does not say how he figures when it is needed.  Just the experience of how the dough feels.  And he says that this method works for him for a very wide range of hydrations. If this is right then I was way over doing it during the French Folds and so creating a problem for myself.  (And two wrongs just might have created a right.) With only a few French folds the dough would not have turned so drippy.  Who knows what the results would look like then for me?

But the part I just don't get is if that is all that it takes to develop gluten why do you need to beat it with a mixer for 20-30 mins at high speed for this ciabatta??!!

Then Richard Bertnets video does the French Folds for quite a while before the dough is smooth.

Its all very confusing at the moment. 

I guess i will try a few small experiments and see what happens.

K.

Without going into those mind-numbing, unreadable details as before (very sorry about that), I did a bunch more mini-experiments to prepare Jason’s ciabatta without a mixer.  Following up on the above experiments this is what I found.

1)      If I did only a few French Folds (10 or less quarter turns) after autolysing the dough (flour + water only, 20mins RT), enough to incorporate the yeast and salt, the dough remained bouncy.

But I did not see any real difference in the gluten development (?)….the dough became just a little softer and this step was necessary to introduce the yeast and salt.

2)      If I did 60 or more French Folds at this time the dough turned drippy.

3)      The dough with FEW French Folds took well to (i.e. developed gluten and became smooth and held together) to 4 cycles of S & Fs subsequently.  This dough made the best ciabatta with the best height and most crumb visible.

4)      The dough with many French Folds that had become drippy also took well to subsequent S &Fs but was always looser and did not rise as well.  Must be that some of the gluten was destroyed.  This dough also made a good ciabatta but there was a lot less height and crumb i.e. a flatter bread.

5)      If I did ONLY the French Folds (few or many) and did NOT do the S & Fs later the dough did not rise well.  Must be that the gluten was not adequately developed.  These doughs made bread that had almost no height, kind of like naan.  The finished bread was somewhere in between naan and ciabatta.  It had the thickness and slight flexibility of a naan but the crisp brown crust and flavor of ciabatta.  

After baking this is what I found:

a)      All the above doughs made quite good ‘ciabatta’ or flattish bread.  They had a thin, crispy crust and a delicious hole-y, shiny custardy crumb (in those cases where I could actually see and taste the crumb).  All the difference was in the height and amount of crumb that was actually present.  How on earth was it so easy to get such a tasty crumb?

b)       The dough works and is quite forgiving as CAMPCOOK mentioned.   A few French Folds followed by a few S & Fs produces great results.  I am not yet getting consistent results but whatever comes out is tasty.

c)        I have never gotten the thicker, harder crust that shatters a little to make crumbs that I see in some pictures.  I have no idea how that happens.

I am going to do a few more experiments and report back.

If it is this easy to develop and then breakdown gluten in a physical sense I still don't get how it necessary or it works by beating the dough in a mixer for 20-30 mins!

K.      

Hi everybody, I am so excited by all your responses! 

Since last Thursday night, I and my children are being riddled by the flu.  All my bread experiments are on hold.  I am just getting up to take a peek with my half dead brain.

Campcook THANKS for writing your simplification so clearly.  Your method has the simplicity (time and energy) that I want to bring my way, specially the refrigerated ferment.  And if you say you can, I will be able to.  I am lacking firsthand experience with what gluten development and proofing feel/look like and hence all the stumbling. Thanks to all of you I have received so much feedback I think I will have another break thorough. 

Certainly the 60 folds is excessive.  I can’t place where, but I have read in several threads on TFL you don’t ‘need’ beyond just a few folds.  I just kept going because I thought the mixer does so much work that many and then even more folds are needed.  I am still confused as to why the dough becomes drippy.  If the dough progresses so easily to forming an adequate amount of gluten using French Folds then it might be just as easy to take it over the edge to disintegration.  Here is another person who seems to have overdone it http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/13508/kneading-trouble.  Anyway I am going to try to do exactly, as you as far as I can tell, using bread flour.  Let’s see.   

Dwightt, I know I have a gluten ISSUE!  AAAGH! I am just going by campcook’s ability to make this bread with or without mixer.  Since he can see breads made by either method side by side and be happy with it I think it is possible to do it without mixer.  Will (above) also thinks I am not developing enough gluten.  I want to give it a few more tries with bread flour as you have reminded me and as is recommended in the recipe. 

I am keenly eyeing Chef John’s ciabatta from the no-knead dough.  I am going to try it very soon.  It will be fantastic if it works out that easily.  Did you ever make a ciabatta this way?

Thank you for your help, here and in my other posts!  

Elizabeth, hi again!  In the end it was your method of doing the ‘French Fold’ (I guess you know now that it is the French Fold that you were doing) in the beginning followed by several S & Fs that actually worked.  I had also let the flour-water mixture autolyse for 20 mins before adding yeast and salt and proceeding.  I wait eagerly to know how you did once your oven is OK.  An oven pooping out is the pits.  By the way, I saw your recipe for TUCK STOP cinnamon rolls.  I am going to try those when I am better.

Will, I am amazed at how perfect  your bread looks (and tastes probably just as good) .  I am working on it.  I am going to figure this gluten thing out.