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golgi70's picture

Now that I've jumped into the world of heavy rye breads and learned the infamous detmolder three stage build I got curious.  If it makes for the best dark rye's couldn't it make for an excellent light rye as well?  

I'm pretty happy with the results.  Tons of flavor for a light rye here.  Nice sour notes in the crumb (more after a day or two) with a sweet and crunchy crust.  Toasts up amazingly.  This is my white sourdough  

More testing needs to be done.  

First off I'll have to make the same formula with just a rye sour and see if skipping the detmolder detracts from this breads quality (I'm pretty sure it will at least shorten its life span)  I just finished these loaves I made last Sunday on Thursday and they were still moist on the inside and just starting to get truly staled. I leave my bread cut side down on a cutting board and avoid putting it in bags.  I figure I get to experience the loaf in all of its stages of life.  

Next test would be to see if cold bulk or final fermentation would add or detract from the loaf.

And of course there is increasing the amount of Rye.  

Finally I also used the same dough to make little rolls topped with Coarse Salt and Caraway which were also great. 

Sorry no  pictures of the rolls.  

the loaves were 1 kg batards and the rolls were 100g.  

Happy Baking


golgi70's picture

Well it's technically over.  My experiment has concluded.  Yesterday was the last of the farmer's markets and I made it to 21 of 26 of the markets with bread to trade.  I've made some friends and had a really good time trading food for food.  In honor I offered my loaves as gifts yesterday in appreciation of the farmers who were happy and willing to trade with me.  This didn't go so well as they still pushed food at me.  But i tried. Furthermore they have added a winter market to start next week so I guess it never ends.  Yay.  But I'll feel better about missing some now that the summer has ended and trading bread in the rain will be trickier.  

I decided to revisit Pane Maggiore from week 6 as it was one of my households favorites of the season.  I stuck to the true recipe the first time around but didn't leave myself and notes.  Now I have notes to add.  Only 7.9% of the flour is prefermented and for 18 hours which certainly adds a lot of flavor to this loaf. About .3% yeast is added to the dough and I assume its to make up for the small amount of starter and I followed suit.  The original also calls for retarding the shaped loaves and baking them cold, which is perfect for my setup. I shaped them at 8pm and retarded immediately.  Woke up for some water a few hours before I intended to get started (3 am)  I took a peek and they were blowing up in the fridge.  Fortunately the oven was preheated and ready to go.  So I got to it at once.  They were on the cusp of overproofing but I think they just got to a cold enough state where the activity had nearly ceased.   In hind site I think something similar happened last time as well.  Should have taken notes.  I blame the freshly milled flour and the quantity of yeast.  If I do this loaf again I will cut the pinch of yeast down to a 1/3 at .1% and see if that mellows it out.  

It truly is a marvelous loaf.  Moist open crumb with tons of flavor from the long wheat perferment and the most amazing crunchy crisp crust with the awesome chew that I attribute to the rye.  At 86% hydration this is a tricky dough to handle but well worth the work behind it.  

I also made extra loaves to bring over to a new friends house to bake in his WFO.  It's a domed oven more suitable for pizza but he's a mason and we will tinker with temps, timing, and steaming until we get some really nice loaves.  The loaves baked in my home oven took about 35 minutes to bake.  In the WFO (which was too hot I suppose) took 17 minutes to bake.  

Hope everyone has a fantastic holiday and eats way too much


golgi70's picture

Made some 1.2 kg boules using a liquid white and stiff wheat levain this weekend.  I used about 48% wheat and 2 % rye (in the form of rye sour used in the liquid levain) I would have used my white starter but I didn't have quite enough for both levains so instead of adding a touch of rye flour i built off of my rye sour.  I wanted a full flavored bread with volume and keeping qualities in a relatively small amount of time.  So 30% of the flour was prefermented which boosted both bulk and final ferments.  2 hours and 1 hour.  Since the loaves were so large right after shape I retarded 2 loaves and proofed 1 at room temp.  It was ready to go at just shy of an hour and I missed it so it was a touch over but not bad at all.  The other loaves followed after 1 hour, then 2 hours.  The slow rise in the retarder helped a great deal.  Next time I'd retard all and bake start baking at the 2 hour mark.  

that is my assistant "Seven" and she is pleased with the results.   As am I.  As expected this bread was better on day 2.  Last loaf is left and we'll see how it is on day 3.



golgi70's picture

Officially done with 20 markets out of maybe 24 that have ensued since I started this fiasco.  Next week would be the last week and maybe worth celebration but for the first time ever they've decided to add a Winter Market.  So there is no end to this everlasting spoof.  I'll probably take a short hiatus with the holiday's and miss some markets and get back on the weekly market come the new year.  

So I got some local dried mission figs last week with this weeks bread in mind.  I did  fig n fennel back towards the beginning but I didn't even look at my notes and made up another formula.  Just compared and the previous had way too few figs in it (half of this one at 5%) and this one can use a bit more.  Its also a whiter bread than this one which is only 25% whole grain, the previous was 15%.  And the first thing I thought after finishing was to increase the wheat to 40%.  And of course increase the figs up to 15%.  All in all though this was a nice loaf.  Still not as good as Dave Miller's mission loaf but the same flavor profile.

Also continuing on my Volkornbrot with 100% rye and sunflower seeds.  I cut the chocolate malt to see how the flavor changes.  I have the last batch left so I'll be able to taste side by side.  The color is obviously lighter.  I followed the 3 stage detmolder process again and really hit the times and temps the best yet.  But i still have that compressed section at the bottom of the loaf which I really want to get rid of.  I think I may not be doing a long enough final proof.  I may tinker with adding commercial yeast to the final paste to help boost that final fermentation and see if I get rid of that issue.  Otherwise i think I've taken yet another step forward.  It's really an amazing process which with the help of Andy (ananda) and Hamelman's "Bread" has given me a much better understanding of rye in just a few goes at these typesof bread.   

Without further ado:

Fig n Fennel

20% prefermented flour
300 g Ripe White Starter (100% hydration) @ 75-77 deg F
412 Malted Artisan Flour (11.5%)
150 Fresh Milled Wheat
 37 Fresh Milled Rye
404 H20
16 Salt
2.25 g Fennel, toasted
15 Vanilla Sugar
90 Dried Figs rough chop
2 loaves
Autolyse Flours, h20 and fennel for 1 hour
Add levain, sugar, and salt.
Mix until well combined on low speed (3 minutes)
Turn to medium speed and develop to medium consistency (3 minutes)
Add figs and stir in on speed 1 until well dispersed (1 minute)
Bulk Ferment 2 1/2 hour
Stretch and Folds (2) @ 40 minutes and 80 minuts
Divide @ 700 preshape and rest
Shape to floured bowls and retard immediately (8-12 hours)
Bake 500 with steam for 12 minutes then vented at 460 for 20-25 more.


Really don't like that compressed bottom there.  Its bout 40 hours old now.  Tasting will ensue tommorrow


golgi70's picture

Made with 35% fresh milled local Hard Red Winter Wheat (Hollis).  I miscalculated with the olives and after pitting came up short but proceeded.  I will post my formula but I'd double this for sure.  The addition of an herb could also be nice but my olives were a mix of three green varieties brined with garlic and oregano.  Had I used enough maybe I wouldn't need any herbs.  I'll find out next time around. 

Olive Levain:                              Makes two large or three smaller loaves                                                                                                                                         

Total Flour       1120

Total H20           813             72.5%

Olives                 150            13.5 %

Levain: 3-4 hours @ 72.5% hydration DDT 78F (20% prefermented flour)
90 Wheat Starter
180 Wheat, fresh milled
118 H20
200    Wheat
32      Rye
663    Artisan (malted bread flour @ 11.5% protein)
650.   H20
150    Olives, herbed (a mixed variety of garlic oregano green olives)
16      Salt


Total Dough = 2132   3 loaves at 705 or 2 loaves at 1066  

Drain and dry olives on paper towels when you make the levain. 

Autolyse 2 hours

Add levain and mix on speed 1 for 3 minutes 

Add salt and continue mixing on speed 1 until well incorporated. 

Turn to medium speed and devlop dough to medium development.

Add olives and mix until evenly dispersed.

Bulk ferment 2 1/2 hours with stretch and fold at the 30 minute and 1:15 minute mark

Divide, preshape, shape to bowls.  Retard for 8-12 hours

Bake 500 w/steam and turn down to 460 and continue for 20-30 minutes pending size of your loaf. 


golgi70's picture

As we come upon the last weeks of the market I have now missed a few but next week will be 20. Had all plans set to make an olive bread but the cost of nice olives made me bail on a large batch and simplify.  Maybe had I thought ahead I could get some wholesale prices but I didn't.  So I threw together a formula for a Spelted Sourdough that I'm quite pleased with the results.  The dough is lovely smooth but quite slack and was just super fun to shape.  I also continue on my quest to learn and make 100% ryes which may or may not be going so well.  First batch was simply the worst and its improved since.  I thought I'd make a few pullmans and gift small loaves of this along with the SD.  I should have only made three but I planned on four and accepted that they would be short loaves.  

Last of the tomatoes, beets, cippolini onions, artichokes, daikon radish, goat cheese (pressed ricotta with cumin and fiennel, and queso fresco), new local tuna company, locall olives (which are cut and in my olive bread to bake today), two bags dried figs, cillantro, spinach and brocollli


If anyone is interested in the formula I will scale down and post later

Happy Baking


golgi70's picture

So now that my culture is alive and well I'm starting to play.  Things I've learned.  It's slow, slower than sourdough (I was told this and its true).  It really likes to be warm (78-80)  If much cooler it barely acts at all unlike sour which will just go slower it just won't get going at all.  Second and third builds start to act more like a sweet levain and timings shorten significantly.  As a combo with SD it adds nice structure and oven spring and balances sourness (this is great if desired but if you want sour this will not help).  

Below are both 100% YW breads.  First is a Currant and Fennel which is built off a levain made with the actual yeast water.  The following are baguettes which were a second build from the extra levain.  

fennel and currant crumb.  Maybe coulda used a bit more proofing but the taste and texture were quite nice.

Overall a decent sweet baguette but poor keeping quality and not as good as Sour/IDY.  Next up will be SD YW combo which I have high hopes for.  

Happy Baking All


golgi70's picture

Yeast Water is alive and it's time to play.  A big thanks to dabrownman for his simple instructions to get this culture going and maintenance.  I highly suggest a post on this as was explained to me for those who might be interested in making their own culture.  Then it will be an archived easy approach to a natural levain.  My YW is being fed with currants/apples and has a lovely sweet hard cider smell to it.  Since it was so young I decided to do a hybrid with some White Starter as backup and to add a bit of the twang.  So I pre fermented 20% of the flour.  10% was wheat using the YW, the other 10% was my white starter (100% hydration).  I've gotten great feedback on this loaf.  It's quite fantastic actually and would match well with cheese and wine.  Also makes an excellent turkey sandwich and Nut Butter and Jelly. Essentially a classic bread here and I highly suggest this one. 



YW Levain (if you don't have yeast water this could simply be a wheat sour @ 100% hydration)

These are kept as two seperate levains.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------DDT 78F for 8-12  hours

100 g     Freshly Ground Whole Wheat 

100 g     Yeast Water (again mine is Currant/Apple/Honey)


200 g     Mature White Starter (@100% hydation)


400 g    Total 


Dough:  DDT 75F


560 g    Central Milling High Country Hi-Protein Flour (13%)

300 g    Freshly Milled Wheat

40 g      Freshly Ground Whole Rye

713.4g  H20

23.6 g    Salt

150  g    Walnuts, toasted


Total Flour:   1100 g

                              White 660 @ 79%  Hydration  =  521.4

                              Wheat 400 @ 90% Hydration  =  360

                              Rye       40 @ 80% Hydration  =    32

Total H20 913.4 (83% Total Hydration) 

Total Dough 2187 g  (3 loaves at 729 g) 

1)  Autolyse Flour and Water for 1 hour. 

2)  Add Levains and mix to combine well.

3)  Add salt to combine well.

4)  Turn up and devlop to medium (should just start really pullin from bowl but not completely)

5)  Add Walnuts and stir in on low speed until incorporated.

6)  Bulk Ferment for me was 4 1/2 hours with 4 stretch and folds at 40 minutes

7)  Divide, preshape, rest 20-30 minutes

8)  Shape to floured bowls and retard immediately.  

9)  Bake 500 with steam for 13 minutes and then 460 for 20-25 longer rotating as needed.



golgi70's picture

Well we've missed a few markets but I'm back.  And the great news.  The farmer's market will continue through the winter for the first time.  It will obviously be toned down by 75% as there are much fewer folks with product during the winter but a victory for humanity none the less.  I've built of a rye starter over the past couple of weeks and have been feeding it bi-daily and then retarding after letting it sit out for a couple of hours.  it's doing quite well and I opted to put it to use.  Breads made of mostly white flour really get a boost from small amounts of rye so I opted to use a Rye Sour and use 25% rye in the total formula, (all of which is in the pre ferment)  I added .25% cinnamon to the dough to give it a nice hint but not to be the front runner.  I also soaked the raisins in hot water so I can pull some of the sugar into the dough without adding any additional sugar, and added a vanilla bean while they soaked to give the raisins a nice flavor.  I'm pretty happy with the results.  Next time I might up the raisin soak by 50% and puree 1/3 of the raisins into the dough.


For 2 loaves

Rye Sour: 6-8 hours


195 g  Rye Flour, coarse ground

195g  H20

60 g   Mature Rye Starter


Raisin Soak:


120 g  Raisins

120g  H20, hot

1/2   Vanilla bean split and scraped




400 g  Bread Flour

200 g  Strong Flour

75  g  Whole Wheat

3 g     Cinnamon

311g  H20

20 g   Salt


1)  Make Rye Sour and let ferment for 6-8 hours

    Soak raisins with hot water and toss in vanilla bean caviar and all and stir up.  Cover and let sit.

2)  1 hour before the Sour is ready drain raisins.  

3)  Autolyse 1 hour:  Rye Sour, water, raisin water, final dough flour, and cinnamon

4)  Add salt and begin mix on speed one to combine well (3 minutes0
     Turn to speed 2 and continue mixing until medium devlopment.

     Add raisins and mix on low until well dispersed.  

5)  Bulk Ferment:  4 hours with 2 stretch and folds at 45 minutes and 1:30

6)  Divide and preshape.  Rest 20 minutes.  

   Shape to bowls and retard overnight. (my dough was a bit cool and would have benefited from 30-60 minutes                                                                  at room temp before retarding)

   Bake straight from retarder at 500 with steam for 13 minutes, then lowered to 480 vented for about 25 more.

   Cool on rack. 




golgi70's picture

Well got sick this weekend and missed the market bake but I had to feed the starter and decided to take the extra and make 2 builds, 1 wheat and 1 white.  I intended on a whole wheat bread but after looking at my inventory of flour I opted to make a loaf I do at my current job with some improvements.  Since I had both builds I just used them in combo for the one bread.  I wasn't quite sure how well this would turn out as it was only the first build off my starter which hadn't been fed in a few days but I proceeded anyway and with great success.  


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