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tothpianopeter

Good afternoon all!

It has been a while since my last entry on TFL. It's panettone season, so I thought I would make them again using maestro Giorilli's formula. I followed the same procedure as outlined in my previous blog entry, here: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/71664/giorilli-panettone

I am quite pleased with the results. Here are some pictures.

 

 

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

Dear fellow bakers,

I thought I would share with you the results of my first attempt to make real, non-yeasted, panettone. I had made yeasted ones quite a few times before, and I thought it was time to make the real deal. I chose maestro Giorilli's formula that is available here: https://www.giorilli.com/ricette-item/panettone-con-uvetta-e-noci/

This particular formula has nuts in it which I substituted with raisins because I wanted to create a more traditional type with dried fruits instead of nuts. This time I didn't add candied orange and lemon peels, just raisins. The process itself was so demanding and exhausting that I didn't have the energy to make the candied fruits. Otherwise, I followed the formula, scaled down to the size of molds I have. The amounts came out as follows:

1st Dough

228 g water

130 g pasta madre at 50% hydration, refreshed 3 times at 4-hour intervals at 28 degrees

460 g strong flour

142 g sugar

136 g butter

104 g egg yolks

 

Aromatic Mix

30 g acacia honey

½ vanilla pod

1 grated orange peel

1 grated lemon peel

 

2nd Dough

116 g strong flour

3.6 g malt (I actually left this one out completely because I didn't have malt, and the formula still worked)

126 g sugar

184 g egg yolks

8 g salt

All the aromatic mix

240 g butter

20 g melted butter

440 g sultanas

These amounts make two panettoni of 1 kg each.

I didn't have Italian panettone flour, so I used King Arthur Bread flour (12.7% gluten-forming protein content) with the combination of vital wheat gluten in order to get the gluten-forming protein up to 15 %. I used Foodgeek's Gluten Calculator, which was very useful: https://foodgeek.dk/en/vital-wheat-gluten-calculator/

Since I am an amateur baker who bakes occasionally, I don't maintain a pasta madre because it just wouldn't make sense to me to do so. Instead, I created a pasta madre only for this project by taking a piece from my stiff 50%-hydration starter I use for my sourdough bread and converting it into pasta madre. I started the process about one week before baking. I made sure that the pasta madre would get at least one warm 4-hour refreshment per day at 28 degrees Celsius excluding the daily maintenance feeding at 18 degrees for 12-20 hours, depending on my schedule. Occasionally, I would perform a 20-minute bagnetto before the first refreshment of the day. The day before making the first dough, I fed it four times according to the following schedule:

8:30 am: bagnetto

9 am: 1st refreshment at 28 degrees

1 pm: 2nd refreshment at 28 degrees

5 pm: 3rd refreshment at 28 degrees

9 pm: maintenance feeding at 18 degrees for 12 hours

 

Schedule on the day of making the first dough:

8:30 am: bagnetto

9 am: 1st refreshment at 28 degrees

1 pm: 2nd refreshment at 28 degrees

5 pm: 3rd refreshment at 28 degrees

9 pm: mixing of the first dough

All these feedings were at the ratio of 1:1 (levain:flour). 

I don't have a PH meter but I often smelled and even tasted the pasta madre during the process. It never tasted too acidic (excess amount of acetic acid) or bitter (excess amount of lactic acid). Neither did it taste bland (trait of a LM too weak). It had a pleasant fermented taste, so I thought I was on the right track. Also, I always made sure that it tripled each time at 28 degrees within 4 hours, which it did. 

One final word about the pasta madre's hydration. I have noticed that the typical hydration is usually below 50%, more like between 40% and 45%. I decided to use a 50%-hydration pasta madre because it seemed to produce the right consistency for my flour. I tried 45% hydration before and it took forever to achieve a smooth dough, it just seemed too dry.

As for PM conservation method, I opted for the "dry method", that is, not bound in cloth and not kept in water. Instead, I would keep in in a glass jar. I know that PM maintained via this method has the tendency to develop excess acidity. That's why I performed bagnetto often. The other two methods seemed too complicated for an occasional baker like me.

I have recently bought a KitchenAid Professional 5 Plus, which is a decent mixer but could be more efficient when mixing panettone dough. Hence, my mixing times came out to be much longer than those recommended in the formula. I mixed the first dough for 50 minutes, and the second dough for 1 hour and 15 minutes. Luckily, my kitchen is cold (16 degrees Celsius), so the dough didn't heat up much. 

I let the first dough rise for 14 hours at 24 degrees. I wanted to make sure it indeed had tripled, that's why I went a little longer than 12 hours.

After mixing the second dough, I let it rest for 30 minutes, then divided and preshaped, then another 30-minute rest, then final shaped and placed in the molds. They rose for 6 and a half hours at 28 degrees, then baked for 1 hour at 350 F (176 Celsius). 

Being this my first real panettone, I am very pleased with the results. The dough came together very nicely during both mixes, with a definite windowpane at the end each time. The ovenspring was also quite big, although I think I should proof them maybe a little less next time, as they spread also sideways, not only upwards, creating a mushroom-like shape which I was not going for. The resulting crumb is very soft and fluffy, really light. The taste is amazing, and no sour notes!

I hope that people will read this post and give me opinions and suggestions on how to make the next bake even better. I do have one question regarding the formula, and I hope someone can answer.

Giorilli is very specific about finishing the second mix with a small dose of melted butter after incorporating all the soft but not melted butter, just before adding the fruits. What is the purpose of the small dose of melted butter? I did it the way he suggested, and it worked well, but I also saw many videos in which they don't finish off the mix with melted butter, but only soft butter. Any ideas?

I also want to thank Michael Wilson panettone expert on TFL, who gave my invaluable insights and suggestions on pasta madre management! 

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

I have decided to try Mr. Hamelman's miche formula from his book Bread. I followed the formula and recommended procedure to the letter. I had to scale down the quantities to the total flour of 700 grams, so I would get a loaf of a little over one kilo, which is enough for me and my wife for about a week. Not having access to high extraction flour, I followed Mr. Hamelman's recommendation, and substituted it with a 60/40 mix of whole wheat flour and bread flour.

This is truly an excellent bread with great deep flavor and a soft and moist crumb. I was quite satisfied with the bake, except for two things. My scoring didn't open up much, and when slicing the baked loaf, the crumb felt a little bit sticky, even little pieces stuck to the knife. I let the dough cool after the bake for 18 hours before slicing it, so it was definitely cool enough. 

Regarding the latter problem, the bread was definitely not underbaked, as I baked the loaf for an entire hour at 440 F for the first 15 minutes, then at 420 for 45 minutes. These are the exact times and temperatures in the formula for a loaf twice as large as mine. So, it must have baked fully. The color of the crust also suggests that it was well baked. I am wondering whether or not this particular bread is supposed to have a crumb that's a bit sticky, given the high hydration. I would love to hear from members who have experience with this bread. Otherwise, I suspect slightly overproofing, which would also explain the scoring problem. I followed the exact timeline for the bulk and the final proof, and my kitchen temperature was spot on at 75 degrees, so I am not sure how I could be overproofing. I highly doubt that I have a more active starter than the starter they use at the King Arthur Bakery, for which the formula was created! In any case, I would appreciate any insights!

 

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

Here is another ciabatta experiment I made yesterday. I have been seeking a slightly more complex flavor than ciabatti made with yeasted preferments only, but not as sour as in a typical sourdough-only formula. Thus, I made both a biga and a levain for this dough. Both were stiff at 60% hydration, both had 20% prefermented flour, so the total prefermented flour in the recipe was 40%. I added an additional 0.3% instant yeast when mixing the final dough. This time I also included 3% olive oil in the formula. Salt was at the standard 2 %. Overall hydration at 80%. Entirely hand-mixed.

I think this is my favorite ciabatta I made so far. I really like the slightly more acidic flavor the levain brought to the bread. I enjoy sourdough on the milder side, not a huge fan of overly sour bread. In this formula, I think the biga and the added yeast were the ones responsible for the rise, and the levain gave a more complex flavor profile. I wonder if the biga contributed to the flavor in this case, since levain was also used, it may have simply overpowered the more subtle acidity of the biga. Next time I will try and see what happens if I leave out the biga altogether. 

The only thing I was not completely satisfied with was the shape of the baked loaf. This time I was aiming for a taller, more barrel-like shape, so I shaped the dough combining methods of Ciril Hitz and Scott MeGee, inspired by Alan (alfanso). Although the dough had a nice oven spring and the crumb was very light and open, it didn't hold its shape that well. My guess is that I might have overproofed the dough either at the bulk stage or at the final proof.

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

Hi everybody,

I joined TFL only a few months ago, this is my first blog entry. I am a musician by profession, baking is my hobby. Recently I have been obsessed with ciabattas. This is the last one I baked today. It was all hand mixed (I don't have a mixer), containing 80% biga. After reading Alan's blog entry about his fabulous results (see here), I needed to try it myself. However, I had to make a few changes to the formula due to the absence of a stand mixer. I reduced the yeast significantly to 0.14 percent, so the dough was allowed to have a longer fermentation and develop gluten through time. I like to experiment a lot in baking, so I thought I would raise the hydration up to 85% and see what happens. I didn't include oil because prefer 100% lean ciabattas. So, I ended up with this formula:

100% KA AP flour

80% prefermented flour in biga (60% hydration, fermented overnight with 0.06% IDY)

85% total water

2% salt

0.14% total IDY (including yeast in biga)

3-hour bulk fermentation, 2 stretch & folds during bulk at 45 and 90 minutes

1-hour final proof on couche

In order to incorporate the biga into the final dough by hand, I cut it up into small pieces with my bench knife. The incorporation took about five minutes of intense mixing. Then, I kneaded it for about 15 minutes using the Rubaud method. The result was a smooth dough, although it didn't demonstrate a lot of strength. But I hoped time and folds would develop the gluten further.

After the second fold, the dough felt much stronger than the beginning. It more than doubled in three hours.

By this experiment, I was surprised by two things. First, the dough moved surprisingly fast, given that I used only 0.14% instant dry yeast in the entire formula. My kitchen temperature was not crazy hot either, it was only around 74 degrees. Second, I wouldn't have thought that I could actually get away with 100% AP flour at 85% hydration, let alone the hand mixing! I know that King Arthur's All Purpose Flour is a high-end AP flour, but still. In retrospect, I think maybe keeping it down at 80% would have worked slightly better, as after the 1-hour final proof the dough felt kind of week and spread out a little, but I might have also overproofed it a little bit. Next time I might try it with only 80% water and maybe a slightly shorter final proof.

Any comments and suggestions will be appreciated!

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