Hello everyone!

I've been lurking on the site for about 18 months now (ever since I was given Peter Reinhart's Bread Bakers Apprentice and developed an obsession for artisan bread), and have finally plucked up the courage to ask for some advice from the wonderful community here.

I have been using a sourdough starter (he's called George) to make bread almost every day, and I'm generally really proud of my loaves.

But for the past few days I have been trying to branch out into regular yeast bread, and they just aren't coming out right. I just got a loaf out of the oven that went completely flat during baking- I don't think I have been getting enough surface tension into the dough while shaping them? This one was shaped freeform on a baking tray, but even when I do the final proof in a banneton my yeast  loaves tend to always go flat in the oven. I stretch and fold as I normally do for my sourdough loaves, and kneaded this one by hand for about 15 mins until the dough reached the windowpane stage. I shaped it according to Reinhart's instructions (usually I do my sourdoughs slightly differently- I flatten, fold the corners then the ends into the centre, bring one side in, then fold the other side over the top and pinch at the seam), and follwing his recipe I didn't slash the top as I usually would have.

The crumb structure is just passable, but the texture is too dense, and despite the shape it took too long to bake so the crust is quite hard and a bit thick imo. The strange thing is that I'm really happy with my enriched sweet yeast buns (lemon buns, Finnish cinnamon buns, cream buns)- they hold their shape well and have the right soft texture.

At a bit of a loss about where I'm going wrong- do sourdoughs and yeast loaves require a totally different technique? Or am I just making some stupid mistakes?

Thanks for your help. Rose

Note: I used Peter Reinhart's Multigrain Bread Extraordinaire recipe, but used a mixture of 300g wholemeal bread flour and 125g white bread flour (sorry for metric- I'm in Australia)

Recipe:

13.5 oz bread flour

4 oz milk

6 oz water

.38 oz salt

.33 oz instant yeast

1.5 oz brown sugar

1 oz cooked rice

1 oz honey

After letting the white basic bread dough raise until doubled I have problems with the dough going flat while shaping.  I mix the dough in a KitchenAid and let it raise in a oiled bowl until doubled. During shaping it it goes flat and does not raise in the bread pan while baking.

Can it be the work surface is too cool? This time I plan to use a wooden surface.

I have watched numerous YouTube videos and so far can not decern what is wrong. Do you have a suggestion?

I've been trying dmsnyder's Pugliese a few times - it really is a lovely loaf!

My challenge is that I can't get the shaping right for the seams to open.  My first one sealed the seams completely - probably too long proofing with the seams underneath in the banneton?  My second one was a bit better, but a bit like a volcano - pointed top with a bit of an explosion!  No photos of either, they didn't look "right" - but they tasted wonderful :-)

Another try this weekend - the seams opened fine (I used quite a lot of durum flour to dust before shaping the edges in, and proofed I think for about an hour)

So - the seams opened fine - but the overall shape was a real mess!  I didn't get enough of a boule i think before the final shaping - so it pancaked a bit (even stuck to the stainless steel upside down bowl!) and then splodged outwards.  The base is a real mess, I couldn't even get it off the peel properly (on parchment) so the base is folded and wrinkly...  Still a good taste, but I want to improve the shape!

Here's the crumb: (sorry for poor quality photo lighting - it's the iPhone, it's not really that yellow!)

Any suggestions from anyone please on improving shaping?

I did find this thread

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14612/fragile-sting

which has some great discussion - I think I should probably use rye flour (+ rice?) rather than the durum, and perhaps shape in 2 stages, firstly a tight boule as normal, then flattening and folding before proofing?  If anyone has mastered this upside-down-loaf style, I'd really appreciate some advice!

thanks
Salilah

This is an illustration of Shaping a dough into a ball (Boule). I learned this technique from San Fransisco Baking circle.

David (dmsnyder), was the first to demonstrate this shaping method here.(thanks David!). I thought of illustrating the method, and share it with all of you.

This is an illustration of Shaping a batard i thought i would share with TFL memebers.

I Hope this helps new TFL members with shaping skills.

I'm getting ready to make some brioche a tete, and I'm debating between two shaping methods:

1. The "deep pocket" method (start at 0:50)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiSTcIrI-eA

2.The "poke-a-hole" method (start at 1:35)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeCEHU9toqU

Does anybody have experience with both these methods? It seems that method 2 results in excellent definition of the tete, but that the bottom of each brioche doesn't sit in the mold all the way. The outcome seems to be a misshapen bottom (if you see the part in video 2 toward the end, where he places the brioche on the cooling rack, you can see the uneven bottoms).

Has anyone had success with method 1?

Several years ago I embarked on research and development of fun shaped buns.   The doughs I use are:  whole wheat, sweet roll, cheese, oatmeal, and caraway rye.  For the eyes I use currants, raisins, olive slices, a date slice filled with a craisin.   For fins and feet I sometimes roll out and cut pieces, other times I make a ball and cut toes in.  I use an egg white for the glaze and for some designs sprinkle with sesame seeds. 

Here are the tools I use: 

Dough cutter to divide the loaf, rolling pin, two scissors, bamboo skewer, chopstick, exacto knife, miscellaneous cookie cutters, and individual cue cards.

After the dough has risen the first time, I cut it into the number of wedges according to the number of buns I am making that day.  I found that working with wedges helped immensely to get the proportions correct for each bun.  I made a cue card for each design to show me how many pieces each design required and how to best cut the wedge to get the pieces.  I also added helpful notes from previous attempts. 

I like to make several different designs in one session.  That's where the cue cards come in handy.  Since you are working with a living organism working quickly is necessary.  I found it best to make a mix of easy and difficult designs so as to fit within the time frame I had.  I kept all pieces covered with lightly oiled clear wrap so as to prevent a crust from forming.  I found that making the bodies first then adding the smaller pieces worked the best.  I would shape the body, press it down to secure it on the pan then move on to the next body.  I would then start adding the smaller pieces, then the eyes and slash in details.  The bamboo skewer blunt end is used to make indents in the dough for the eyes and noses.  The chopstick is good for larger designs and also for cupping the ears of the bear.  The scissors are for the hedgehog and cat. 

 The cookie cutters are for the fish, grape cluster, and rose. 

Right up until the time they go in the oven I continue to check on them and push the dried fruit in, etc. if they start to fall out of the rising dough. 

At first I thought I had to pinch the pieces together but found that simply tucking them under slightly held them together just fine.

Just before baking I continue to make small adjustments, redefine slashes if necessary, then brush on the egg white.  If any egg white pools in the eyes I dab off the excess with a corner of a paper towel.

My failure rate is very small.  It seems that with a little diligence the eyes stay put and the pieces stick together.

After years of baking bread I started making fun shapes.  My first attempts were using the entire batch of dough to make one large "Fun Bun". 

I made a frog for the neighbor girls.

Then a mouse for my backdoor neighbor.

I tried a pig next.

Then a lizzard???

For Easter . . .

Decided to try bread stick dough and came up with an octopus and starfish, using sesame seeds for details -

Using sweet roll dough, dried fruits, and frosting, came up with Mr. Caterpiller.

I used caraway rye dough to give the color and texture I needed for Super Bowl Sunday.

Then a grand daughter asked for a monkey.  For this I used a regular rye bread dough and the caraway rye bread.

Can't forget Santa . . .I took a picture of the before baking and after to show that some distortion occurs during rising.

For the ladies I needed a flower.

My daughter-in-law likes a glass of wine so I created a cheese bread "grape cluster" for her.  I really like this one because #1 you can make different sizes and #2 the bun is so tasty that you don't need anything to go with it. 

So, these are my edible centerpieces.  I have since gone to making as many as 12 "fun buns" out of one 3 C. (flour) dough recipe.  I'll post pictures of those and then share how to's.

I've recently bought Tartine Bread book, and am trying the basic sourdough loaf

The stretch and fold seems to go fine, though I have needed to use a bit of flour for the pre-shaping / rough shaping, and for the final shaping.  The final shaping seems fine - quite a nice ball!  I've then proofed this in a linen-lined basket and it rises OK (if not that much).  The proof time feels short to me - I've poked it to the stage when it doesn't spring back fully...

The problem is when I turn it out - it loses all its height and makes a bid to ooze off the peel!  I've almost no time to score it, it's such a rush to get it onto the baking stone before it completely flattens (last night it tried to ooze off the stone!)...

The bread rises beautifully in the oven, the crumb is nice (if a bit over-proofed perhaps, with a bit of a flying top), it doesn't break through the scores much, but does rise upwards - however, it is still quite a low profile

I tried reducing hydration a bit last time - and if anything, it oozed more!  I'm using quite a high gluten flour (Waitrose Canadian Spring)

Any suggestions please?

The "Taste-and-Tell" is a monthly event held by the Chicago Amateur Bread Bakers.

Today we announced the focus for our April "Taste-and-Tell": Basic Shaping. For more information, and to join the group, please visit us at http://www.meetup.com/Chicago-Amateur-Bread-Bakers/

As a special treat, and a follow-up to last month's focus on basic scoring, one of our bakers will bring a bucket of dough and some lames to the event, so that we can practice scoring.

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Chicago Amateur Bread Bakers is a not-for-profit group of avid home bakers of yeasted, artisanal breads. We get together in-person to share our experiences and learn from one another. We strive to support and inspire those actively baking bread at home.