Going with the usage of these terms in Reinhart, where they have about the same hydration, and a pate fermentee has salt but a biga doesn't (and perhaps a bit less yeast), how does using a biga vs a pate fermentee affect the outcome of a recipe? Will taking a recipe that calls for one and using the other (adjusting for the salt difference in the final dough) change the result in any noticeable way? Has anyone experimented with this?

Eric

Does anybody know the answer or can refer me to any resource that will explain why yeasted and flat breads have markedly different geography? Does it have anything to do with properties of yeast?  Or possible effect of yeast on the body and health?

I was trying to make the Pugliese from the Bread Bible, page 360 and I'm not sure what happened to my crumb. It's the same bread that is on the cover of the book. Any suggestions?

Hi there !!!

these forums were a big surprise , a good one . There are tons of info in these forums and i am just starting to go through them but i have some unanswered questions to which i hope more experienced members can shed some light .

I understand , i hope , what is the difference between a sourdough starter  and a pre-ferment . Over here ( i live in Athens, Greece ) there is a process that i have seen used that i am not sure in which category it falls in. Let me explain :

This is a bread recipe that my grandmother  used to make .

Combine 1/2 cup of wheat flour with water to make dough that is close to 60% hydration.Knead it and place it in a bowl , cover it with a towel and leave at room temperature for 24 hours. Next add 1/4 cup wheat flour and water to 60% hydration , knead it and leave it covered for 24 hours. Repeat the process one more time.

Was that a starter?

Bread ingedients

• 1 part luke warm water
• 3 parts wheat flour (my grandmother used some variety of durum wheat endemic here )
• salt (1tsp for every lb)
• honey(1tbsp for every lb)
•  our starter (????)

In a large bowl mix the starter(?) with some of the water to make until it  looks milky . Add most of the flour keeping some for when kneading.Knead until dough stops sticking to hands. Continue kneading for 10-15 min more. 

Take a portion (...My grandmother never used measurements , her recipe was that she wanted a piece of that as big as a small orange for 2 lbs of dough ....)off the dough and refrigerate it . This will be used as our pate fermente(?) for the next time we make bread.  Store it in a covered bowl that has a pinch of salt and some oil  in the bottom of the bowl. It can last up to 15 days .

Now is that pate fermente ?

Take the dough , cover it and let it rise in a warm spot of the house for 8-12 hours until boubled. Shape as required , let it rise again  and bake.

----------------------------------------------------

Now i have been reading for the past 6 hours these wonderfull forums and i still cant figure out exactly what is this process? Is it a sourdough bread? Is it a bread using apre-ferment ? A combination maybe ?

HEEEEEELP !!

didn't work for me obviously did something very wrong mixed up flour and water and left for 20mins came to mix in the rest put in tin then warm spot and it hasn't budged an inch have I wasted the whole lot please

having tried hand kneading and the bread has not worked out (long time ago now) I have read to be heavy handed with it some say be soft with it all my recipes says knead for at least 5mins will give it another go today but what are the tried and true methods please at the moment I am using my machine to knead and finishing in the oven thanking you in advance

I stumbled upon this earlier.  I thought it was really interesteing!  This is reprinted from:  http://www.motherearthnews.com/Relish/Temperature-Influences-on-Bread-as-it-Bakes.aspx

Enjoy!

Temperature Influences on Bread as it Bakes

10/19/2007 12:00:00 AM

By Tabitha Alterman

Tags:

If you've been frustrated by trying to bake bread at home, learning something about what is happening as a loaf cooks can be helpful. The following chart is from Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes by Jeffrey Hamelman, director of the Bakery and Baking Education Center at King Arthur Flour. (You can read my recommendation of the cookbook here.)

77˚ to 122˚F (25˚ to 50˚C):Rapid increase in yeast fermentation; increase in enzymatic activity; beginning of crust formation; starch swelling; accelerated gas production and expansion contributing to oven spring

122˚ to 140˚F (50˚ to 60˚C):Rye starch begins to gelatinize; bacteria die; enzymes in yeast are inactivated; yeast reaches thermal death point (at about 140˚F)

140˚ to 158˚F (60˚ to 70˚C):Wheat starch begins to gelatinize; loaf expansion slows; coagulation of gluten begins; amylase enzymes reach maximum activity

158˚ to 176˚F (70˚ to 80˚C): Gluten coagulation is complete and dough structure is formed; enzyme activity decreases; rye starch gelatinization ends

176˚ to 194˚F (80˚ to 90˚C):Wheat starch gelatinization is complete; enzyme activity ceases

194˚ to 212˚F (90˚ to 100˚C):Maximum internal loaf temperature is reached; crust coloration begins

212˚ to 350˚F (100˚ to 177˚C):Maillard reaction develops crust color; ketones and aldehydes form, eventually contributing to flavor and aroma

300˚ to 400˚F (149˚ to 204˚C):Further crust color and flavor development through caramelization

So I have a question for you. I love having a small, fresh loaf of sourdough on the counter to cut into anytime I want. But the process to make just one at a time is sooo time consuming. What if I were to make several small uncooked boules ready to go into the oven, but instead, put them into the fridge ad every other day baked up one of them, do you think this would work? Have you tried this before? Thanks! Jean-Paul

Last week marked our official one-year anniversary of being licensed and open to sell.  I thought those of you thinking about starting your own bakery or supplementing your income through baking might be interested in hearing about the process a little bit and how we've progressed throughout this year.  Both the production schedule and strategy has changed in the last 12 months, but these are basically the different ways that we make income without an actual storefront and while baking out of our 'bakery at home'.

1 - Selling directly to restaurants / retailers.  These customers are regular buyers or larger quantities of breads/pastries.  They buy everything at a wholesale (reduced) rate, which, although less lucrative for me, creates an outline for me to work my daily baking schedule around. Since they buy the product outright, they choose what they want and when they want it -provided I have enough notice.

2- Retailers providing a space for me.  Basically this is a typical arrangement for a bakery selling their product in someone else's store.  I bring goods to a retailer who provides shelf space for me to sell my stuff.  By viewing what's selling, I decide what to bring each day.  The products I bring are based on my regular customers above.  If it sells, they make a commision on it, if it doesn't sell, then I'm stuck with it.  Of course this isn't an ideal situation, but it's a way to get our product out there, plus it provides a location for people to pick up their special orders.  Breads that don't sell here are frozen and sold to other restaurants at a reduced rate for use in sandwiches  / panini.

3- Farmer's markets.  Just like some of you already do, here we sell directly to customers at our regular rate.  We currently sell at two farmer's markets a week.  Together with our regular business, this keeps us pretty busy for 6 months of the year.  We take advance orders via email and phone and also reserve items for people who can't make it to the farmer's market early.

4- Special cases.  Orders for special events or holidays are sold directly to customers at retail price.  If it's a small order, it needs to fit into the already existing baking schedule ('Can I get two loaves of rye on Friday?');  If it's a larger order ('Can you make appetizers for 150 people?'), then it'll require adjusting the baking schedule to work around it.  Also, it will undoubtedly require more working time in the morning or prep time in the afternoon.  Since these are guaranteed sales, however, it's usually worth it. 
In addition, as the farmer's market season ends, i'm hoping to create a system similar to a typical food/vegetable co-op subscription so I can continue to sell directily to customers.

Before this bakery began, I decided that the two most important aspects in building this business were quality and consistency - at the expense of speed (and sleep).  Most of the work I've been doing myself, with help from my wife and interns from here too.  I think we've established a very nice reputation in the area and kept all of our regular customers / wholesalers very happy in the process.  Of course this has meant turning down other accounts (especially recently) in order not to expand too quickly and risk a decline in quality.

Anyway, that's a little recap of our strategy in practice, and I hope some of you will find this helpful or at least interesting.  I'll be blogging soon about some of the more fun aspects of the last year.

-Mark

http://TheBackHomeBakery.com

I use a recipe similar to Dan Lepard's for focaccia.

• 100% flour (obviously)
• 35% sour starter (100% hydration)
• 0.74% yeast
• 2.5% salt
• 65% water
• 5% extra virgin olive oil 

When it cools, it's extremely light and fluffy, with HUGE holes in it. The closest you'll ever get to eating clouds. But for some reason, it goes tough and hard within 24h despite being kept in an airtight plastic box.

WTF?! Should I store it differently?

When I make 'dry' bread (i.e. without oil) it stays nice for days on end... sometimes up to a week.  But this is no doubt because it's already dry, so it doesn't matter so much that it's getting drier every day...