The Fresh Loaf

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trailrunner's picture

I haven't posted in ages . Been baking but no time these days to get on the computer. I had to post this though. I used Lildice's Ciabatta crust recipe from the pizza forum...she posted it in 2007. All I can say is...a picture is worth a 1000 words. Her inst. are perfect and this is the best pizza I have ever eaten, let alone made. I will never use another crust.

Photobucket Photobucket

dmsnyder's picture


When Shiao-Ping showed us the “Pain de Tradition” of James McGuire, I knew I was going to make it. The bread she made was gorgeous and good to eat. The techniques used were very congenial to me, since I have really had good results from “stretch and fold in the bowl” mixing with other breads. Besides, the one bread attributed to McGuire I've made (repeatedly) – the “Miche, Pointe-à-Callière” in Hamelman's “Bread” - is a wonderful bread.

I immediately thought of making this bread as a sourdough. Shiao-Ping and then Eric beat me to the draw. Here is mine.

I followed Shiao-Ping's formula. My starter has some rye and some whole wheat flour, but I used KAF Bread Flour exclusively to make the dough. I did add 2 gms of Instant Yeast, although my feeling was, like Eric's, that less would be better, particularly since my kitchen temperature was around 80F.

As I did the repeated stretch and folds, I felt the dough was not developing as well as I was accustomed to using this technique. So, for the last two sets of stretch and folds, I folded 15-20 times, rather than 8-10 times. At the end, the dough was still very loose. My inclination would have been to do a tight pre-shaping, but I stuck with the directions and just transferred the dough to a floured board to rest for 15 minutes under the bowl. I shaped a boule by gathering the edges of the dough to the center and sealing the seams. I then transferred the loaf to a well-floured, linen-lined banneton to proof.

I proofed for about 40 minutes, at which time the loaf had expanded no more than 50%. I transferred it to parchment on a peel and loaded onto my pre-heated baking stone. The rest of the baking procedure was as Shiao-Ping described.


This is the lightest-colored loaf I've baked in years. I might like this bread baked darker (by baking at a higher temperature), but the light-colored crust sure shows up the yellow pigments in the flour. Others have remarked on how yellow or “cream”-colored the crumb is on this bread. Well, my crust was too!

I baked the loaf to 210F internal temperature, then baked it 5 minutes more, then left it in the oven for 10 minutes more with the oven off and the door ajar. The crust still softened as the bread cooled.

The crumb is classic sourdough - randomly scattered holes of varying size. The mouth feel is cool and tender yet chewy. When first tasted, completely cooled, it has a lovely aroma and flavor. It is actually more assertively sour than expected.

This is a lovely bread. I'll make it again. I'd like to try it with a darker crust and a thicker one. 





Pablo's picture

I wondered how much abuse this method could take.  I had ~200g 50% hydration starter in the 'fridge from a few days ago.  I used no yeast.  76g of the flour was rye.  The dough temp was 96F.  I did 3 fold sessions per schedule then put it in the 'fridge overnight.  Today I did the remaining 2 fold sessions, proofed for an hour at 85F room temp and baked 65 minutes per instructions (450/350).

Looks reasonable above, but camera angles can hide things.

Kind of a split personality.

Open, moist crumb.  Taste-wise what struck me was that it was sweeter than I generally get.  No idea why.  I think the folding technique coupled with the long, relatively low bake temps are worth exploring.  This bake used the last of my non-rye starter.  I dried them and put them in the freezer and I'm devoting myself to rye for the foreseeable future.


ehanner's picture

Today I made a second batch of the Multi fold, no knead bread Shiao-Ping as been working on and posting. I decided to make a few changes in concept to suit my style.I started with her SFSD post HERE and except for the yeast and flours and baking temp, followed that method.

First, instead of using yeast to rise the dough and sourdough starter to flavor it, I used a scant 1/4 teaspoon of yeast and relied on my robust starter to provide leavening. So it was a true sourdough loaf. Next time I'll skip the yeast totally.

Second, I added 5% rye flour to the dough mix. In the past I have found that even a small amount of rye helps the depth of flavor greatly. In this case I added 25g of whole rye.

Third, I found I needed an extra 30 minutes ferment time for the dough to feel right, so call it 4.75 hours ferment time total at 73 degrees F. That was also the dough temperature.

Forth, I gave the proof time 40 minutes. I'm not certain that I didn't over do that by a few minutes. The crust expanded well but the cuts got all weird like a cat fight happened on top. As usual scoring is my Achilles heel and the first thing to go.

Lastly, I wasn't happy with the chewiness of the crust yesterday baking for an hour  at 350F. Today I used 450F for 10 minutes, steamed and lowered the temp to 430 for another 20 minutes. The crust would have been more crisp had I left it in the oven for 5-10 minutes to dry. I may get a tattoo reminding me to stay on checklist. I like the crust much better today.

Overall, the flavor of the sourdough is mild and the overall taste is great. It is remarkable how creamy yellow the crumb is and how well the dough feels using only a plastic scraper to fold a few times. I think it is a safe statement that our mixers are oxygenating the dough and do nothing for flavor. Simple hand mixing and gently folding will develop gluten and deliver to your hands a very luxurious and satiny dough. I didn't pull a window pane but I assure you that this dough is the essence of gluten development.

I like the schedule of this bread. I started it at 8 AM and I'm eating it at 4 PM. My other Sourdough breads I usually start in the evening after dinner and get them in the oven around 10 AM. -12 PM. That's OK but I like the one day aspect. When I have time, I know I can make a good loaf on the day I think of it.

That's it. One day SF SD. Not the best bread I've ever made but pretty darn good for a one day project. No Mixer needed!


Shiao-Ping's picture

First of all, I have to say that I feel uncomfortable every time when I refer to MacGuire's set of procedure Pain de Tradition procedure.  As I indicated in my first post that, in the Winter 2006 issue of The Art of Eating magazine,  Nos 73+74 (note: a 20th Anniversary Double Issue) where I got this method, it is entitled "A Full-Flavoured, Minimum-Kneading, All-Included Recipe for a Round Loaf with Many of the Advantages of the Baguette."   I said that essentially this is an old-style straight-dough, super-hydrated formula which can also be used for baguette.  I call it Pain de Tradition because, from reading MacGuire's 10 page article entitled "The Baguette" about Prof. Calvel, I understand it to be a bread using the traditional method seen in Prof. Calvel's younger days, ie. slow & gentle mixing and long cool fermentation (but of course the actual steps that I relayed were developed by Mr. MacGuire).  The article is beautifully written and extremely informative.  I don't want to mislead anybody or misrepresent Mr. MacGuire and I would encourage anyone who is interested in more details to visit Edward Behr's The Art of Eating website and get a back issue.   

Another very important point which I did not mention in my first post is the choice of flour.  MacGuire is very careful of what flour he uses for his straight-dough baguette.  He does it only if the flour is "right."  He dedicates a big section in his article about the differences between French and North American flours, which is a familiar topic for TFL users here.  Suffice to say that, for want of a basic French flour (the type 55), MacGuire uses King Arthur's All-Purpose Flour instead.   (It may not be acceptable to him but nothing says we cannot experiment with any flours we like - this is the prerogative of home cooks.)   

That said, I had a load off my chest.  Phew!  Now I can get on with the important stuff of this post.   

I love fruits and nuts in my breads.  (How interesting - sorry to go back to my inspiration again - that MacGuire reveals that Calvel "retained his generation's disdain for whole-wheat flour, saying, 'Just as we peel oranges, wheat's outer layer is removed'" and that Calvel "insisted that the bread he ate in his youth was as white as today's."  Furthermore, he adds, "Except for walnuts or raisins, he (ie, Calvel) disdained such non-grain ingredients in bread." !!)  

Ever since I learned how to operate a bread machine some 6 or 7 years ago, I've been quick in trying to make my own walnut and raisin breads.  It is like someone who can barely walk properly, already tries to run.   I love to add all sorts of fun stuff into my breads, and I am very greedy too - I love to add a lot of it vis-a-vis the flour quantity.  For some reason I have never had great results with walnut and raisin breads though.    

Armoured with the new found procedure from master baker James MacGuire, I thought I'd give it another go. 

My formula follows:  

230 g starter @75% hydration (ie, 132 g white flour & 98 g water)

318 g KAF Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour (On hindsight, All-Purpose flour would have been better; the crumb may even be more open.)

257 g water

100 g walnuts (I was going to lightly toast them, but my bag of walnuts is new and the walnuts tastes crisp, so I didn't.)

125 g mixed fruits (Predominantly sultanas, there are also raisins, citrus peels and currants.  I did not soak them because they taste moist.)

5 g sesame oil (or one tsp)

1 tsp of cinnamon powder

9 g salt

sesame seeds and fine psyllium husks for dusting the banneton and the shaped loaf  


total flour = 450 g  and  total hydration (including oil) = 360 g; ie, dough hydration = 80%  

nuts and fruits = 50% of flour, which is higher than Hamelman's fruits & nuts based bread and/or sourdough recipes (ranging from 25 - 32%) but a lot less than Reinhart's Cinnamon Raisin Walnut Bread recipe (80%) which David rendered beautifully in his June 22 post here.  



      Sourdough Walnut & Sultana Bread - using James MacGuire's pain de tradition procedure  


                      the crumb  


                                   and the close-up  


the calculation of water temperature when sourdough starter is used  

When there is a sourdough starter, there is one more element to consider in the calculation of water temp for the final dough.  I did not mention this when I posted my San Francisco Sourdough Bread.  I use the mid-range temp of 71 - 75 F (22 - 24 C) for the ideal dough temperature, ie, 73 F (22 C), as a base to add to the figure we already have, that is 216 F, to arrive at the new starting figure for calculation.   

216 F + 73 F = 289 F

289 F - room temp - flour temp - starter temp - 5 =  water temp (bearing in mind this is for hand mixing)  

This may not be correct in the strictest sense, but I get a rough gauge as to what water temp I should be aiming for.   (Susan's Wild Yeast blog may have something more accurate, but I cannot remember.)  

mixing and fermentation  

With this bread, I didn't want to bother with the two-step mixing that most recipes would have you do, ie, mixing the flours with the water first, autolyse, then mixing in all the fruits & nuts.  I basically gave the flour a reluctant stir in the starter/water mixture for no more than 5 - 10 seconds, added the fruits and nuts straight away, then at this point I did a good stir for a minute or two.  Autolysed for 10 min as in MasGuire's instruction, then performed my first set of 8 - 10 folds.  

By the time I finished all 5 sets of  8 - 10 folds, it was half past 11 last night.  I shaped the dough, rolled it lightly in a mixture of sesame seeds and fine psyllium husks (a bit like very fine bread crumbs).  I dusted the benetton lightly again with this sesame seeds mixture, placed the shaped dough in there, covered the whole thing in a plastic bag, and chucked it into the refrigerator for retardation.  Brought it out to room temp this morning at 7 and baked it at 8:30 for 50 minutes.      

the result  

My husband is no expert in breads, or sourdough for that matter.  But, hey, we are here to please our family.  By no means are our family's standards those of professionals.  But, if our family is happy, we are happy.  

My husband said the bread is just brilliant!  He said the flavors are well balanced, you cannot discern any individual flavor, nothing is dominant that you can pick up.  He alone had 1/3 of the loaf with morning tea!  

Don't we love a biased family member.  



p.s.  My daughter, just home from school, was munching a piece of this bread.  I showed her my draft, she goes, "No, you are not there to please family members, you are there to please yourself!  Isn't that what you've always told us!"   Ahh, that is my girl.


Nomadcruiser53's picture

Well, I've been pressed for time lately, but can't bring myself to buy too much store bread. So I whipped up a couple of SD sandwich loaves. I used a half cup of starter for each loaf plus a 1/2 tsp rapid yeast. The dough had good rise in a couple hours. I then divided and put in pans. Nice rise in the pans, but it fell some putting them into the oven. I misted 3 times in the 1st 10 mins and Now I can make toast and sandwiches once again. We had SD waffles this AM and I must say, they are always wonderful.

That was it for me today. Not pretty, but very tasty. Dave

ehanner's picture

I was interested in this one day bread that is reported to be a flavorful and beautiful direct ferment dough. I followed Shiao-Ping's formula precisely, even to the point of obtaining a bag of King Arthur flour. I figured if she can spring for it in Brisbane, I'll dig deep here where it's only 3 times the cost of my usual bread flour.

I was pleasantly surprised at how nice the dough felt as it proceeded through the folding stages. It was a thing of beauty by the last stage. All of the times and temps were right on. I planned for a 72F dough temp and it stayed there all through the ferment. At 4-1/2 hours I shaped and let it rest on the counter as advised. I wanted to skip the banneton, the gluten was well developed and I think it would have stayed in shape for 45 minutes. Surprising for an 80% hydration dough.

Anyway I watched the proofing progress as advised and at 40 minutes it was right according to my floured digit. After a sloppy pineapple slash into the oven it went. Yes, a scant 1/4 Cup of water in the steam pan.

I have never baked a white flour loaf for an hour and was hoping it would look right. I read Shiao-Ping's note about how the author suggested up to 70 minutes but I wasn't that brave. 60 minutes of oven time, the last 50 being at 350F was my plan.

You can see the crust is nicely browned and not overly thick all around. I got a nice oven spring and the shape is about what I would expect. The crumb is reasonably open and has a nice chew.

For a short 4.5 hours of floor time this is a nice bread. It isn't the best direct bread I have eaten but it's very good considering the time it took to make it. I did think the crust was more chewy than crispy. Perhaps the additional 10 minutes in the oven would fix that.

I plan to make this again or rather the Sourdough/yeast  version tomorrow. I'll probably add a little rye in the flour mix just to try to maximize the flavors. If the dough feels as good as it did today, I'll do a free style bake and proof in a couch cloth. I might split the dough and make a baguette also.

We are going to a dinner party Sunday with some friends who like to think they are well traveled. I want to take some baguettes that will make them beg for the source and then tease them with the name of a fictitious new bakery. It will drive them nuts for a while trying to find it. Lol I was planning on doing the Anis method but this is in the running.

So that's it. Thank you Shaio-Ping for your inspiration to try this formula and method.


xaipete's picture

I really like Norm's method of using re-hydrating dried onions. They tasted fabulous on the rolls. The dough was very stiff and tight when I removed it from the mixer for bulk fermentation, but when I went to shape it was amazingly light and easy to work with. I don't know why I expected the finished product to be bagel-like. These rolls are light, tender things with a mild onion and poppy seed flavor, and nothing like bagels! I couldn't help myself and gobbled one down before they were even cool. Thanks, Norm, for sharing this terrific recipe with us at TFL.

I think these rolls would also make great hamburger buns too either with or without the onions.

The original thread is here:

Ready to proof

Out of the oven

Being eaten

My interpretation of Norm's formula and method:

The onion mixture

Rehydrate 1/3 cup dried, minced onions in about 1 1/2 cups of boiling water. When the onions have absorbed all the water that they can, drain them (I pressed them with a spoon when they were in the strainer to make sure I got most of the water out), and add a little salt (I added 1/2 teaspoon kosher), 1 tablespoon of canola oil (I forgot to add the oil so I just dapped a little on the top of each roll before baking them), and 2 teaspoons of poppy seeds to the mixture. Refrigerate until ready to use. Norms says that you have to used dried onions to get the authentic taste of these rolls.

The roll dough

21 g sugar
7 g malt syrup (I used 14 g by accident because I was pouring from the bottle and it got away from me)
7 g salt
21 g egg, beaten
21 g vegetable oil
454 g bread flour
227 g water
7 g instant yeast

Place all ingredients in the bowl of your mixer and mix with the paddle until everything is incorporated, about 1 minute. Let dough rest 5 minutes to hydrate. Change paddle to dough hook and knead on speed 2 for 10 minutes until dough is quite smooth. Norm cautions that this is a very stiff dough and that you should keep an eye on your mixer so that you don't overheat it. I think this dough might knead very well in a food processor; of course it would probably only require a couple of minutes of kneading.

Place dough in a bowl, cover and let rise until double, about 2 to 2 1/2 hours.

Gently deflate dough and cut into 2 to 4 ounce pieces (I used 3 ounce pieces for my rolls), form pieces into balls, cover with plastic wrap, and let rest for about 10 minutes.

Meanwhile, dump the onion mixture onto a lipped cookie sheet and spread it out.

When the 10 minutes are up, pick up the relaxed dough balls, turn them over onto the onion mixture, and press them flat with the palm of your hand. You want to balls to be flattened to about 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

Place the rolls onion side up on a baking sheet, and preheat your oven to 450º.

Cover the onion rolls lightly with plastic wrap and let fully proof, about 1 hour. Just before they are ready to go into the oven, press down in the center of each roll with your thumb to make an indentation.

Bake for about 20 minutes on the middle oven rack until nicely brown and crisp, spritzing them with water once a minute during the first 5 minutes of baking and rotating the pan 180º after the first 10 minutes. Watch them closely near the end of the 20 minutes because they can burn fast--I caught mine just in time. (Next time I make these I might try 425º for 25 minutes.)

Makes 9 three-ounce rolls

Salome's picture

I could withstand the Leader's "Alpine Baguettes" and decided to give Hamelman's "5-grain levain" a try. I thought that there can't be anything wrong with a bread that Hamelman himself describes as "one of the most delectable breads".

It's made of whole-wheat flour, bread and high gluten flour, and it includes a soaker (sunflower seeds, flaxseeds, chopped rye and oats.) In my case it includes as well some sesame seeds as I was running low on sunflower seeds and had to substitute some of them trough sesame. The fermentation process is speeded up by a little addition of yeast. I can't get high-gluten flour here in Switzerland, therefore I added 12 grams of Vital Wheat Gluten to the flour.

While I was letting the dough ferment for the first time, I was thinking about how I should shape this batch of bread. I felt a little bit bored by my "standard shape", the round loaf baked in the iron pot. I remembered the special Couronne shaping that I discovered a long time ago on and that I had on my to-do-list for a long time. So I gave it a try. Thank you Susan, You're a great inspiration to me and your directions are clear and easy to follow, thanks for that!

Well, my Couronne doesn't exactly look as perfect as Susan's. It's a little bit out of shape because my "proofing banneton" was probably a little to big, so the balls didn't form a tight unit and moved around when I slided them into the oven.

That's the way I constructed my "banneton", inspired by Susan's description. I used the lid of my scouting cooking pot and a newspaper-ball. (I'm sorry for the bad image quality, all the good cameras are out today and I had to use my old camera, bought in 2002.) I covered this "banneton" with a well floured towel to prevent dough from sticking.

I had about 1.1 kg of dough alltogether, so I used 750 grams as recommended for the Couronne and made a small boule out of the rest.

To shape a couronne like the one above, divide the 750 grams of dough into six pieces of 100 and one piece of 150 grams. Shape the pieces into balls and let them rest for about 10 minutes. Roll the 150 gram - ball into a flat disk, about 15 cm wide. Place it over the newspaper ball, then arrange the other six balls seamside up around it. Then you have to cut a "star" into the flat doughpiece in the mittle with a sharp knife (look below or read Susan's instructions) and fold the "star-edges" over the balls.

Then let it proof as usual (cover it with a towel while proofing) and bake as you'd bake your recipe normally, maybe slightly shorter, because this shape is not as compact as a normal boule or batard.

I just tried two slices of the small boule - I planned on giving the couronne away, but now the person who was supposed to receive it isn't at home, therefore I put it into the freeze and I'll have it another time when more people are around. Right now, I'm not able to eat 750 grams of bread on my ownin a reasonable time. (as I said, everybody's gone, like the cameras . . .) I'm better off with 300 grams . . .

The flavor of the 5-grain levain is very good, as far as I can say right now. The bread is still somewhat warm. Nearly every bread tastes great while it's still warm. But I'm optimistic that the bread will taste great tomorrow for breakfast, as well.

I'm planning on baking this one again. Not only because it seems to be a tasty bread, but because I've got the feeling that I could simply do better. It was a hot day today, so the fermenting and proofing was difficult to get right, especially because the dough turned out to warm as well.

I'm sure that I'll shape Couronnes again. But then I'll probably scale the "banneton" a little bit down. The newspaperball more like 9 and the "pot lid" around 23 cm in diameter.

Yippee's picture

This was the most difficult formula I've encountered.  I'm somewhat discouraged by the outcomes of my breads.  Even though I've tried it twice, I still didn't get that confident feeling I normally have with my dough. 

In this trial, I used all the 10% rye flour to make a water roux starter.  The reason that prompted me to use a roux starter was that, even though at a lower % of rye (10%) flour than my 090602 sourdough rye (20%) bread , the dough in my first trial of this formula , at which I used KA organic AP flour and no rye roux, turned out to be much messier and the crumb was very gummy.   Without going through the heating process of making a roux starter, the amylases, which contribute to the gumminess in rye dough, remain actively alive.  The combination of lower gluten flour (AP) and the presence of lively amylases, I believe, was the culprit to the failure of my first attempt. 

In my second experiment, in addition to the rye roux starter, I also sustituted AP with bread flour.  I made baguette and batard so that I could practice different forms of scoring.  The crust was very crackly and the taste was good. However, I did not get as much oven spring as I'd hoped for.  Well, I can always give it another try.  We'll see.




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