The Fresh Loaf

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foodslut's picture

I've tried Bertinet's beer poolish bread in the past (also seen here), so I thought I'd try a bit of a variation on the theme - adding just a bit more non-white flour.

Here's the formula I ended up developing:

  • AP flour                85
  • WW flour                  5
  • Dark rye flour          5
  • Whole spelt flour     5
  • Water                    54
  • Beer                      14
  • Salt                        1
  • Instant yeast        0.5

Based on that formula, I calculated these figures (PDF) for 3 x 750g/24oz loaves of bread.  Here's the beer I used for the poolish, a darkish Alexander Keith's Red Amber Ale:

I prepared the poolish and let it develop at room temperature for 11 hours overnight, then mixed it with the rest of the ingredients and let it all ferment for about 90 minutes (it was about doubled in volume).  Shaped the loaves, let them proof another 90 minutes, slash, then into the oven - 500F with steam (ketchup bottle water squirt X 2 to the oven walls) for 5 minutes, then down to 400F for another 40 minutes.  Loaves came out with an internal temperature of between 200F and 205F.

Here's the results:

Nice grain flavour, with only the very slightest hint of beer taste.  Nicer crumb than I've had in similar breads I've done.  I'm planning on trying this toasted on a grill with raw garlic rubbed on it, followed by some olive oil and salt, with home-made pasta tonight.

breadbakingbassplayer's picture

Sorry for the late update of this post...  This is my attempt at a no knead ciabatta a la Jim Lahey.  It's basically his same ciabatta recipe at 87.5% hydration but with a little more salt, and some improvisations with technique.  I am very happy with my result except that I should have squished them down with my fingertips during the initial stages of the final proof to prevent the cavern that you will see in one of the crumbshots.  This result though is the most aerated crumb that I have ever gotten...  Ever...  I got a 28% water loss after bake...


400g AP

350g Water

10g Kosher Salt

1g ADY

761g Total



11:07pm - Mix all ingredients in bowl, cover.

11:54pm - Stir again, cover.  Go to bed...


8:15am - Dump dough out onto well floured surface, turn dough, place onto well floured iinen couche, cover and let rest.

8:40am - With a bench knife, cut the dough in half lengthwise, flour more, pull up couche to separate the two loaves, cover and let proof for 1 hr.  Arrange baking stones in oven along with steam pan.  Fill pan with water and lava rocks, Preheat oven to 500F with convection.

9:40am - Turn off convection.  Turn loaves carefully onto floured peel and place them into the oven directly on the stone.  When last loaf is in, pour 1 cup water into steam pan, close door.  Bake for 10 minutes at 450F, no convection.

9:50am - Take out steam pan, close door, bake for another 30 minutes, rotating loaves half way through bake.  Loaves are done when the internal temp reaches 210F, and are about 15% lighter than their pre baked weight...

Note: Here is my kitchen set-up.  I have a gas/convection oven, which vents out.  In NYC, we don't have exhaust systems that exhaust to the outside.  Instead, they exhaust into your face...  Fortunately my stove/oven is near the window.  I have a big fan that I point towards the outside.  When I start preheating the oven, I turn the fan on full blast...

10:10am - Let loaves cool before cutting...  At least 1 hour or so...  Notice the crackly crust, and the slug like shape...

Here are a bunch of crumbshots...

Oops!  That hole is big enough to put a sausage into...

Playing with bread...

Notice the crispy crackly crust...  This was so messy...  But really yummy...

Some more parting crumbshots...  Enjoy!


breadbakingbassplayer's picture

Hey all,

Just wanted to share with you this bake from 9/23/10.  It is a Tourte Auvergnate inspired by the recipe in Le pain, l'envers du décor by Frédéric Lalos.  His version is basically 80% rye, and the rest in white flour, which is made into a stiff levain.  I decided to make mine with 75% rye flour, and 25% AP flour.  I made the AP flour into a stiff levain, and then with some of the rye flour, I made a rye sour.  Here's the formula, process, and pictures.  Enjoy!

Overall Formula

750g Whole Rye Flour

250g AP

720g Water

18g Kosher Salt

1738g Total Dough Yield (approx)


Stiff Levain

250g AP

150g Water

50g Storage Sourdough Starter at 100% hydration

450g Total Stiff Levain


Rye Sour

150g Rye Flour

150g Water

8g Storage Sourdough Starter at 100% hydration

308g Rye Sour Total


Final Dough

600g Rye Flour

420g Water

18g Kosher Salt

450g Stiff Levain

308g Rye Sour

1796g Total Dough Yield Approx




6:30pm - Mix rye sour and stiff levain, cover and let rest on counter.

7:00pm - Put stiff levain into refrigerator.


9:00pm - Weigh out all ingredients, and place into large mixing bowl in the following order, water, levain, rye sour, rye flour, salt.

9:15pm - Mix for 5 minutes starting with a rubber spatula and switching to wet hands as the dough gets harder to stir.

Switch to wet hands and knead dough.

9:20pm - After mixing and kneading, cover and let bulk ferment for 1:30...

10:50pm - Dough after bulk ferment.  Notice the poke in the top part.

10:55pm - Divide and shape.  I made 3 relatively equal size boules.

Place in floured bannetons seam side down.

Cover and let proof for 1 hour.  Place 2 baking stone/stones in oven with steam pan filled with lava rocks and water.  Preheat to 550F with convection.

11:55pm - Turn off convection. Turn boules on to floured peel/flipping board and place in oven directly on stone.  When last one is in, pour 1 more cup of water into steam pan, close door and turn oven down to 500F no convection.  Bake for 10 minutes at 500F.


12:05am - Take out steam pan, turn oven down to 420F.  Bake for 20 minutes.

12:25am - Rotate loaves around, or between stones.  I am baking on 2 stones, starting them off on the bottom, transfering them to the top.  Bake for another 20 minutes.

12:45am - Take one loaf out to check weight and internal temp.  Should be at least 15% lighter than prebaked weight, and internal temp should be about 210F.  Turn oven off, and leave loaves in for another 10 minutes.

12:55pm - Take loaves out and let cool at least 24hrs before cutting and eating to let the crumb stabilize and dry out a little.

8:00am - I was a little impatient so I cut into one so I could see the crumb...  Slightly gummy as I had expected, but after a little toasting and butter, it was all good...  Enjoy!


breadbakingbassplayer's picture

So my friend sent me this link to check out:

I need to figure out if this will make it to the theaters here in NYC...

sourdoughboy's picture

I'm lucky enough to work with foodies whom I like to share bread with. So in between more ambitious weekend bakes, I'm trying to find a way to bake a nice loaf in the hour or so I have in the morning, to take to work. I found some inspiration on TFL here and here, with the old no-knead influencing my thought-process.

Tried two tactics: a slow overnight proof and an AB-in-5-ish method.


Sourdough with Rye Experiment One: The Auto-Loaf

Slow proof/cold start/auto-oven for bread when I wake up


From Wild Yeast Recipe for Norwich Sourdough, I'm targeting a final dough with: 540 g white flour and 60 g rye flour @ 65% hydration + 11g salt



80 g 100% starter

500 g KA bread flour

60 g Hodgson rye

368 g water (600*.68=408; subtract 40g water from starter)


1. Mix all together. Autolyse for 30. (7:30pm)

2. Add salt, work until gluten is moderately developed (I was feeling super lazy and used a handheld mixer).

3. Fold at 50, 100 minutes.

4. Form into boule. 

5. Put in ceramic pot. Brush with oil to prevent drying out. (10pm)

6. Set automatic oven to 450 for 1 hour, starting at 6am. Pray.

7. Wake up at 7am, take out of oven. Take to the office. Share. Eat.

Result: Funky dinosaur egg-like exterior. Shocked that the timing worked out to a tee. I really liked this loaf. It's an odd looking duck, but it's hearty, with a tight crumb, thin but solid crust, and great flavor. Very good soup companion. And convenient for me. Will be doing it again, with a variation or two.

Experiment 2: AB in 5 Sourdough style rye... deferred

AB in 5 should not be blamed for this disaster. I saw that AB in 5 runs at about 83% hydration, so I simply went for an 83% hydrated dough, but substituted my sourdough starter for the yeast. There was plenty of fermentation but...


500g KA AP

100g Hodgson Rye

480g water

200g 100% white sourdough starter

1 tb coarse salt


1. Stir everything together.

2. Let rise/fall at room temp for four hours. Refrigerate.

3. Next morning, I took a peak and found it was completely unshapeable. 

4. So I added another 100g or so of KA AP, kneaded until the dough semi-workable. Formed into boule, put in oiled bowl to proof in refrigerator.


5. Next morning, was ready to pop in oven Ab in 5 style. But it hadn't proofed at all. So I heated a cup of water in the microwave, and then stuck the bowl in there, to proof for about an hour.

6. Preheated oven to 450, with cast iron pizza pan.

7. Slid boule in, splashed cup of water on oven floor. Baked for about 30 minutes.


8. Late to work.


The result: more spread than poof, as could be expected. My co-workers really enjoyed eating it. The crust was, as they say on Top Chef, very toothsome. With the funky proof et al., the crumb is predictably uneven. I was happy that i was able to salvage the failed experiment.

Look forward to making more Auto-Loafs next week! Maybe with a little less total flour (too much for the ceramic pot I have), AP instead of bread, and kneading the AP before adding the rye.




RonRay's picture

Calculating Recipe File 

(update 100928-4 PM *** I finished and sent out copies to those who had made a request - Ron)

After posting the Conversion Calculator Example - -
I thought that there seemed to be some who would find an expanded version helpful, as well. At my age, it is easy to have great ideas - the trick is remembering them tomorrow. I find that my computers are my most reliable reminders of the ideas I have been fooling with. So, quite naturally, I have accumulated a lot of computer aids to my baking activities. Without a doubt, the way I "think" about any bread formula that I'm interested in, would be considered overkill by most others, but hey, it is my kitchen and my time, and yes, my pleasure. The result of this line of thought was a watered down version of what I use to think through a bread's formula. I cut out some - like calorie considerations and overall percentage calculations - and added in aids for those who are not that used to baker's percentages and hydration levels. I hope it may help in seeing how they fit into the overall recipe/ formula.

Here is a peek at what I came up with as a "Calculating Recipe File". The first image is an example of how someone might use it to examine bread formula. The second image is what they could maintain as their Master file, from which they would use a copy for creating recipe files.

For me, one of the greatest benefits is that I can have two, or more different files on the screen at the same time for comparisons (not true in Excel) because the spreadsheets in the free Open Office program permits multiple spreadsheets to be open at the same time. Not only can they be open, but you can copy material from one into another. For example, the last time you baked a loaf, you were less that totally pleased. You save a copy with a new name "2nd try" and open that beside the original. Make your considered changes in the new file - even note what your reasons were. Print a copy out and go start the your bread making efforts.

The 1st 4 columns permit you to indicate which of 4 categories the ingredient belongs in - Ref. Only, Flour, Water, Other. Notice that this allows you to parse the sourdough into the flour and water categories for hydration level information by only referencing the total strater entry. The 4th and 5th columns are where you name the ingredient and provide its weight reference - in grams per cup. The cup, Tbs, and tsp columns are where you play to create the value you want in the M (grams) and N (ounce) columns - Note ounces are only for info, and not used. As you run down the ingredient entries, the last 6 columns and the Percent Hydration Level (%HL) are calculated for you so that when the last entry is made, you already have the categorized amounts columns and the Bakers percentages in two sets of 3 column pairs - the 1st 3 by in grams, and the last 3 in Baker's Percentages. I think I would have been very pleased to have some tool like this when I was first trying to wrap my head around all of these considerations.

These images have been updated 100926 15:05 to show the Excel version after modifications.

This is just an example of what one might enter into a file.  The Master Blank is shown below, and that is what one would start from in using this form of Calculating Recipe File.  The Master Blank should have its [Properties] option changed to set the [Read Only] option as ON. Then one opens the Master and saves it with different "new work" file name. If you forget and attempt to modify the Master, you will be reminded that it is Read Only. Thus, you are much less likely to find that you have accidentaly destroyed your only Master Blank.


These images are in the Excel screen format, but if viewed in Open Office, there would be still be horizontal lines in the areas with background shading. For anyone using the free Open Office Spreadsheet, this program is available Open Office as well as Excel, and preferred by me, as it permits multiple files to be opened at the same time for cross referencing.

********* Updated 100928-4PM

I have finished the "Getting Started" write-up for "Calculating Recipe File". For those wishing a copy, send an e-mail with "TFL-CRF" in the subject line to - .

I will send you the following collection of files:

1/ [Excel] "Ounces per Cup Baking Calculator": It just might be useful with the others - at times, so it is included.

2/ [Excel] "Grams per Cup Baking Calculator": It just might be useful with the others - at times, so it is included.

3/ [Word] "Getting Started with Calculating Recipe File": Hopefully with enough information to get you on your way in using the Calculating Recipe File.

4/ [Excel] "Excel_Master Calculating Recipe File": This is the Excel version of the Bread Formula program. It differs from the next file only in some additional background colors not being used in Excel.

5/ [Open Office] "Open Office_Master Calculating Recipe File": This is the Open Office version of the Bread Formula program. It differs from the previous file only in some additional background colors being used that are not in the Excel version.

end update ========== 100928.


*** Next blog:  101010



SylviaH's picture

These loaves are from  The recipes can be found on Teresa's Blog.  The Mill Grain @100 was so delicous and disappeared so fast, lots of lovely grains, poppy seed, sesame seed, whole oat berries, millet, rye flakes, wheat flakes, flax and sunflower seeds, from KAflours, is the grains I used and they are just delicious, this time I made 2 loaves, still to warm to be sliced.  I would like to try this mix in a JH formula for his mix grain loaves...whats a few extra grains! 

The Rye Sourdough with Roasted Cracked Wheat, is my first attempt.  I made 3 small loaves and had to slice into one as soon as it cooled.  I cracked my wheat and it toasted up very nicely and smelled so good.  The flavor is delicious without being bitter or sour, a lovely complex flavor with a sweetness of the wheat and little added soft chew with some larger pieces of the cracked wheat thoughout.  I thought the loaves a little flattish looking but the crumb seemed nice for these small loaves. 



                                               Rye Sourdough with Roasted Cracked Wheat


                                                             2 large Mill Grain loaves and  3 Rye Sourdough loaves w/roasted cracked wheat



                                               Crumb of Rye Soudough w/RCWheat



                                                                  Added crumb of Mill Grain loaf









wayne on FLUKE's picture
wayne on FLUKE

This is the 3rd recipe I have baked out of Peter Reinhart's Artisan Bread Every Day. I followed the recipe quite closely, choosing to go with 1 cup of buttermilk and the rest no-fat milk (from instant powdered milk). I used white sugar and canola oil for sweetener and fat. The only real change I made was to add 1 Tablespoon of Hodgson Mills Vital Wheat Gluten (first time I ever used this).

I refrigerated immediately after mixing as suggested and am glad I put it in a larger container cause it way more than doubled overnight. I made one loaf from about 900 grams of dough (9x5 pan) and 3 rolls at 75 gr and 3 rolls at 100 gr. Egg wash and seeds on everything.

Here are some pics.


And here is a close-up.

Close Up

And an extreme close-up.

Extreme Close-Up

And now the crumb. Love my Presto slicer!

Close up.

Crumb close up

And one artistic shot (well, it is artistic for an old engineer!)

Soft Whilte artistic shot2

I will try to remember to update this with some comments on flavor and texture after we eat some. Hopefully it will be soft as decribed by Peter.

Comments always welcome, wayne

TASTE UPDATE (Sat 9/25): We had some of the rolls for lunch today for deli meat sandwiches. Very pleased with texture and taste. Will definately make these again.


breitbaker's picture

Hi everyone...I've been MIA the past few months...certainly not from baking, but mostly from commenting on this site. I still consider this an invaluable resource though!

Somehow, summer overtakes.

I have begun blogging at a separate domain though, so come on over and see what I've been up to! It's my adventures in the kitchen along with snippets of the things I grow and create....

See ya there!

Cathy B.pane siciliano.JPG

breadsong's picture


I tried a half-batch of Hamelman's Baguettes with Poolish, to make four half-size baguettes. I'm fairly certain these don't qualify as baguettes, due to appearance! as well as size...!
I tried Richard Bertinet's mixing technique and found this made a good strong dough.
I don't have a couche cloth, so proofed on a floursack (tea-type) towel. I didn't flour it enough and the dough stuck a little bit when trying to move the loaves to the peel.
I also wasn't careful enough when transferring one of the loaves to the peel so two of the loaves ended up sticking together, for their complete length! That was dicey, trying to separate them without deflating them.
I found my dough to be hard to score this time, with a lot of pulling and dragging on the dough. After shaping, the loaves proofed for one hour, loosely covered with plastic wrap, and the room may have been a bit on the warm side.
I don't think they were overproofed though but this is something I'm having a difficult time judging.

I look forward to any suggestions regarding what went wrong!  They taste good though; we tucked in for breakfast.

Regards, breadsong



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