The Fresh Loaf

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copynumbervariant's picture

Having found that cider doesn't seem to add much flavor to bread, and worrying its alcohol may have hindered fermentation, I thought I'd try milk. I was curious if the milk would curdle from the acidity of the dough, and if that would matter. When mixed into dough, is curdling even something that milk does?

The fat may be the more significant part of milk in bread. The crumb turned out tighter and more tender, less chewy. There's a definite milky aftertaste, that mucusy feeling like after eating a bowl of cereal. This loaf is basically granola as bread.

Because they weren't whole oat grouts, but "quick steel cut", I felt like my blender wasn't going to have a hard time breaking them down. I treated the toasted oats, soaked in milk overnight and then blended, as part of the flour in the recipe. It seems like oats absorb quite a bit more liquid than wheat, because I ended up adding another 120 g of milk--about the same weight as the oats. Without the extra milk, the dough felt like 60% hydration or possibly lower (the intent was 75%).

8:00pm toast 110 g oats, soak in 340 g milk, refrigerate

8:30pm mix levain 51 g starter, 59 g bread flour, 59 g water


8:00am blend soaker -- measured 425 g, 25 g missing

8:00am mix autolyze 371 g bread flour, blended soaker -- added 13 g more milk, 17 g more bread flour

9:00am knead together autolyze, levain, and 10 g salt -- added another 80 g milk, dough was stiff

9:40am -- kneaded in another 40 g milk, dough was stiff

10:00am S&F

10:30am S&F

11:10am S&F

12:00am S&F

1:00 S&F

3:30pm shape, coat outside with oats

8:00pm bake covered

8:20pm uncover

9:05pm done

solano's picture

We had a holiday last Friday, so a longer weekend, I've never made so many breads! Still testing weak flours and also a new recipe with a little wholemeal flour. There were 6 breads, the picture above is only 5 because one had already given away to friends. There were 3 different methods, 2 loaves each, I'll explain each one briefly and put the results photos.

This weekend I tested a tip from Doc.dough in the other post, as he explained, I took an aluminum foil and kneaded it in a ball, opened it again and folded it in 4 layers, I placed it in the oven rack to protect the bottom of the pan . It worked very well! The bottom of my breads improved a lot. Thank you, Doc!

These breads were my usual recipe, 1000g dough, 100% white flour, 65.03% water, 2.19% salt, 18.58% levain (100% hydration). Final hydration, 68%. The two that are not 100% white flour are the same %, only 10% of the flour is whole. Temperature in my refrigerator was about 5 ° C and in my kitchen during the day ranged between 24-26 ° C.

The oven and the pan were preheated to 250º C, the breads baked for 20 minutes with the lid of the pan and another 25 minutes without cover and oven at 230º C. It is longer than I left before, was trying to get a darker crust, could have baked for even longer, the bottom held up very well and came out not burned on all the loaves.

The first loaves were made according to an idea that Doc.dough gave, the method I used that time was asking for 14 hours of refrigerator, so he wondered if it would really take all this time and what would happen if it was reduced to 4 hours.

Basically it was this.

- mix (flour, water and levain) - 30 min "autolyse".

- add salt and mix (rubaud).

- 4 stretch and fold every 30 min.

- after 2 and a half hours of the mix, put in refrigerator for 4 hours.

- remove, pre-shape, bench rest 20 min, shape.

- final proof at the counter was 4 hours for first dough and 4 hours for second, the second dough was an hour more in the refrigerator.

Bread 1 result (this opening, shape problem?):


Bread 2 result:

The next batch was the breads with a little whole wheat flour.

The method was as follows.

- mix (flour, water) - 30 min autolyse.

- add levain - 30 min rest

- add salt and mix (rubaud)

- stretch and fold every 30 min, 6 times.

- Rest 1 hour.

- pre-shape, bench rest 20 min, shape. It was 6 hours of bulk fermentation.

- 1 hour rest at the counter and then put in the refrigerator for 14 hours.

- I removed it straight from the refrigerator to bake. The second dough stayed for an extra hour in the refrigerator.

Bread 3 result (why did it open more on the top? shape problem?):


Bread 4 result:


The last batch were 100% white flour bread, same method from my last post.

- mix (flour, water and levain) - 30 min "autolyse"

- add salt and mix (rubaud)

- 4 stretch and fold every 30 min

- put in refrigerator for 14 hours, second dough was an hour more.

- remove, pre-shape, bench rest 20 min, shape

- in the final proof I had to improvise, I had to leave for a lunch, then the dough that was the longest outside the refrigerator and was well developed, I put back in the refrigerator, the second I decided to leave on the counter and bake first when I returned, it was a total of 5 hours at the counter until baking. The one that went back to the refrigerator was 3 hours off, another 4 hours in the refrigerator and straight into the oven.


Bread 5 result (stayed on the counter directly):


Bread 6 result (returned to the refrigerator):

It was very difficult to fit so many loaves into my holiday and weekend schedule, but I succeeded and was very happy with the results. The first batch was very dense, so I think actually the 14 hours in the refrigerator make a lot of difference, at least when I use weak flour. The other breads were very good and especially the 6th bread I found it was even better than the others.

Sorry for the long post. I hope it did not get too confused.


The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Please turn your attention to Hollands' North sea coast, Friesland, one of the Netherlands' northern provinces. Alongside world-famous Dutch cheeses like gouda and edam, there is the signature Frisian Gingerbread. This 100% "quick" rye bread, was often times steamed in a water bath rather than cooked in a dry oven. Here is my interpretation of

 Stanley Ginsberg's formula

Visit The Pie king at the link below for more information and photos.


Good Cooking for the Heart and Soul




Yippee's picture


This is probably the easiest post I've ever written...








One for you, one for him, NONE for me 


Bye Bye babies...

Hope the uncles will treat you well...

At least take a crumb shot that's not out-of-focus and not too fuzzy


I hope these are my graduation loaves for Borodinsky

I really want to move on to Rus's next bread

Pataqueta's picture

A warm greeting to all the people those passionate about the art of the bakery and pastry.

With the due permission of the administrators of, we would like to ask you to support our project, which is exposed in the crowdfunding platform Kickstarter, with the intention of raising the necessary funds to be able to carry it out.

It's an innovative attachment that will radically change for the better the way to knead bread at home.

The attachment is designed to fit comfortably and quickly to the head of the stand mixers for domestic use, and as they say, an image is worth a thousand words, here we leave one with all the important details.

And finally to say you that we would greatly appreciate your collaboration, either contributing some money, and / or sharing the link of our crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter platform through the leading social networking and other media, related to the bakery and pastry.

Thank you very much in advance.

The Kn-Tool team


P.S. It's in your hands, in those of everyone's lovers of the bakery, that this project sees the light or stays in the book of oblivion forever.

leslieruf's picture

I am still jet lagged after 2 longhaul flights but we were running out of bread.  so over the weekend I dug my starter out of the refridgerator, refreshed it and then built enough 100% hydration levain for 2 loaves.  I used some bran left over from earlier bakes as well.  My brain isn’t yet upto much so I stuck with the 1:2:3 formula making 1 all white loaf and 1 loaf with 25% rye.  

After 30 minute autolyse I added levain to the rye dough, mixed it a bit then did 100 SLAFs. Dough was quite sticky but came together well enough. At this point I left it to rest and repeated the process on the white dough.  The white dough was very soft but easy to work with. 

Now I went back to the rye dough, added salt with about a tspn extra water and did another 100-110 SLAFs.  Dough much better now, not so sticky and the little extra water helped with the texture.  Left to rest while I repeated the process with the white dough but did not need to add any further water.  

During bulk ferment I did 4 sets of coil folds 30 minutes apart then left dough to did it’s thing.  Once dough was looking a bit poofy, I decided I had to risk it as the jet lag was kicking in again so I preshapped and bench rested for 30 minutes. I tried extra hard with shaping - trying for good structure so dough would hold it shape. Planned on bench rest of at least and hour after shaping but at 45 minutes I hit the wall and needed to go to bed.  so popped both lots into he fridge and baked them early this morning. Preheated oven to 250°C but turned it down to 225° C with convection, 15 mins lid on DO and 15 mins lid off.   Really happy how they came out of the oven.  Cut one for lunch too.

Crumb shot. left hand one is 25% rye.

Happy with the crumb on both. Yes they were both simple loaves but I paid extra attention to several things.

 Maturity of levain - not sure if I understood this right, will reread but the overal levain weight had dropped by 2 grams and it certainly looked good to use.

The number of slap and folds. Last bake I did 300 SLAPs  but felt it was too many so dropped back. I think it is better this time.

Timing of salt addition. Normally I would add salt when I add the levain. This time I did it i. the middle of the SLAPs and I could see the dough tightening up.

Shaping - really keen to get good volume and height and minimize spreading. The white in particular had come out well with nice rounded shoulders. The rye one a little flatter but not too bad.

Final proof - my fridge is colder these days and I think fermentation is slowing a bit to fast. I think the bench rest after shaping before retarding is helping.

So still much to think about, but overall this was a good bake.  It is sooo good to bake again.

Bake happy everyone.




Elsie_iu's picture

A simple formula that’s perfect for busy days.


20% Germinated Red Rice Oat Porridge Sourdough


Dough flour (all freshly milled):

150g      50%       Whole spelt flour

90g        30%       Whole white wheat flour

60g        20%       Germinated red rice flour


For leaven:

5g        1.67%       Starter

20g      6.67%       Bran sifted out from dough flour

20g      6.67%       Whey


For porridge:

15g          5%       Extra thick rolled oat

30g        10%       Hot water


For dough:

280g     93.3%       Dough flour excluding bran for leaven

165g        55%       Water

100g     33.3%       Whey

45g          15%       Leaven

9g              3%       Vital wheat gluten

5g         1.67%       Salt



302.5g      100%       Whole grain

287.5g     95.8%       Total hydration


Sift out the coarse bran from the dough flour, reserve 20g for leaven. Soak the rest (I got 19g) in equal amount of whey taken from dough ingredients.

Combine all leaven ingredients and let sit until doubled, around 3 hours.

Pour the hot water over the oats and leave it aside, covered, for at least 2 hours.

Roughly combine all dough ingredients except for the salt, leaven, and soaked bran, autolyse for 20 minutes. Knead in the reserved ingredients and oat porridge. Ferment for 3 hours longer.

Preshape the dough then let it rest for 15 minutes. Shape the dough and put in into a banneton. Retard for 10 hours.

Preheat the oven at 250°C/482°F.

Score and spritz the dough then bake directly from the fridge at 250°C/482°F with steam for 15 minutes then without steam for 25 minutes more or until the internal temperature reaches a minimum of 208°F. Let cool for at least 2 hours before slicing.

The crumb is pretty open for 100% whole grain porridge bread though the dough was probably over-proofed. 

This bread has a nice balance between sweetness and sourness, with the unique aroma of red rice coming through. It is moist and soft thanks to the porridge.


Stir fried glass noodles

Pea pesto pasta salad

copynumbervariant's picture

8:30pm toast 68 g oats, soak in 133 g cider and 3 g salt, refrigerate

9:00pm mix levain: 28 g starter, 33 g bread flour, 33 g water

9:00pm mix autolyze: 85 g oat flour, 340 g bread flour, 282 g cider


7:30am remove oats from fridge

8:15am knead together autolyze, levain, oats, and 9 g salt

8:50am S&F

9:30am S&F

10:15am S&F

11:15am S&F

12:25pm S&F

1:25pm S&F

3:50pm shape, coat outside with quick oats

7:20pm bake covered

7:40pm uncover

8:20pm done


Bob's Red Mill steel cut quick oats for the soaker (they're still fairly coarse), regular quick oats for the crust.

The crumb is a bit tight, possibly because of the oat flour? The flavor of oats definitely comes through, but I couldn't taste apple or anything else from the cider, which was Portland Cider Company Apple.

I followed dabrownman's instructions and used parchment paper to get from banneton to combo cooker, which made scoring less stressful.

Yippee's picture



was one of the best things that ever happened!!!




Rus's Borodinsky 1940






A perfect birthday gift for mom....slicing birthday bread for son (the baby in my avatar, the one who called me "evil mom")...


















 Tartine Country 


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