The Fresh Loaf

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solano's picture

Now that I've been able to protect the bottom of my loaves well, I'm trying to get darker crusts without burning the bottom.

I still work with weak flour, the two loaves were my usual recipe, 1000g dough, 100% white flour, 65.03% water, 2.19% salt, 18.58% levain (100% hydration). Final hydration, 68%. Temperature in my refrigerator was about 9 ° C and in my kitchen during the day ranged between 21-24 ° C.

1st bread, was made as follows:

- mix (flour, water and levain) - 30 min "autolyse"

- add salt and mix (rubaud)

- coil folds every 30 min (total time of BF, 3 and a half hours)

- put in refrigerator for 14 hours.

- remove, pre-shape, bench rest 30 min, shape

- Final proof for 3 hours at the counter and 5 hours in the refrigerator, straight to the oven, bake for 20 min with lid and 35 without lid, temperature was 250º C from start to finish.

I found it overproofed, the dough degassed a little when I cut, not much, but it was perceptible. The dough was strange when I took it out of the banneton, even though getting in the refrigerator was difficult to cut, it was kind of soft, very soft. The bottom held up well and did not burn, I thought it was even lighter than the rest of the crust, could have baked even more. I do not know if it made a difference in the taste, that bread went to my mother's house and I did not eat it.

2nd bread, was made as follows:

- mix (flour, water and levain) - 30 min "autolyse"

- add salt and mix (rubaud)

- coil folds every 30 min (total time of BF, 3 and a half hours)

- put in refrigerator for 8 hours.

- remove, pre-shape, bench rest 30 min, shape

- Final proof for 4 hours on the counter and direct to the oven, bake for 20 min with lid and 20 without lid, temperature was 250 ° C from start to finish.

A friend came to visit us this weekend and said that he wanted to eat bread, so I had to speed up this bread a little so that it would bake before he left, as this one was baked first than the other, I used it to test how much it was going to change the bottom if I left the temperature at 250 ° C all the time. I let it cool for 1 hour and we cut it, it was very yummy and the crust was really very crispy. This bread had this strange opening again, as in my last post.

Happy with the results and tests of this weekend, probably this week I will have strong flour again and there will be other tests.



not.a.crumb.left's picture

Hi friends,

I baked 80/20 mainly white loaves letting it go to 50% rise in bulk based on the recent thread discussing the difference between a 30% and 50% rise and considering the thoughts from Trevor and Maurizio....I realized that I probably was more a 50%ish it happens but also experimented with 30% rise in the past...

If you go 50% rise then this also affects retarding and 2nd proof and Trevor mentions this actually in his book at the very end....reading it yet again afresh....

Now, there is not that much difference in weight between the two of them but I am intrigued what different shape I get with the 25CM cane banneton (used with a cloth) and the 33Cm long pulp Brotform used just with rice flour.

Some people on IG say that the Brotform can dry the dough out more and decrease  chance of blisters...not sure what I think about this...

Does anyone have a preference in shape and type of banneton...I quite like the Laurel and Hardy on my bench! :D Kat

Oh, sadly no crumb shot as I gave both away!

Danni3ll3's picture


I always make a bit more Levain than I need because some sticks to the walls of the container and then I would end up short. This time, I guess I made a bit too much, and since I hate throwing away something I nurtured along, I figured a quick 1-2-3 bread with left over durum semolina and a touch of honey would do the trick. 


155 g mature Spelt Levain (100% hydration made with Spelt bran and sifted Spelt flour)

325 g water

90 g durum semolina 

375 g unbleached flour

11 g salt

10 g yogurt 

25 g honey


  1. Mill the durum semolina into a finer flour. 
  2. Mix water and levain well. 
  3. Add durum and unbleached flour. Mix well and let sit for 75 minutes. 
  4. Add salt, yogurt and honey. Mix in and do 75 slaps and folds. 
  5. Let rest 30 minutes, do 40 slaps and folds. 
  6. Let rest another 30 minutes and then do 10 slaps and folds. 
  7. Do 2 sets of gentle folds at 30 minutes intervals. Let rest 15 minutes. Dough should be bubbly and jiggly. 
  8. Place on unfloured counter and sprinkle with flour. Preshape into a round. Let rest 20 minutes and then shape into a batard. 
  9. Place seam side down in a rice floured banneton. Cover and retard in fridge for about 9 hours. 
  10. Heat oven to 475 F with granite ware roaster inside. 
  11. Place parchment paper on bottom of pan, carefully tip loaf into hot pot, score, cover and place back in oven for 30 minutes. 
  12. Uncover and bake a further 15 minutes at 450F. 


Crust feel a bit hard so I wonder if I overbaked it. It is 3 am so I will see in the morning. 

Danni3ll3's picture

 This won’t be much of a write up because I used the same recipe and method as my last bake except for the following:

1. I used Roger’s Oats with Ancient Grains instead of plain large flake oats. 

2. I added all of the water at the beginning which made for easier mixing. 

3. I threw in an extra fold but kept the total fermentation time at 3 hours and 45 minutes. 

4. I retarded the loaves for only 8 -9 hours and baked directly out of the fridge. 

5. I tried baking for 30 minutes with the lid on and 17 minutes with the lid off. 

The last one is because I feel that sometimes the loaves seem to lose some height when I switch the pots from top rack to bottom rack and vice versa when baking 6 loaves at once. I thought that maybe baking a tad longer with the cover on would strengthen the structure of the loaf so they would be more able to handle the move. Seemed to have worked as they came out just gorgeous!

Once again, I am really happy with what is coming out of the oven. I was definitely over bulking and over proofing my loaves! 

dmsnyder's picture

Ten years ago, in October, 2008, I first converted George Greenstein's recipe for Jewish Sour Rye from volumetric to weighed ingredients. I posted my formula here, and I make this bread with some frequency. I recently noted that I apparently never did document the baker's math for this formula, which makes it more challenging to scale up or down. So, after making a 3 pound loaf of this wonderful bread today, I worked out the baker's math, and I will share it, along with a more heavily annotated set of procedures.


Jewish Sour Rye Bread

David Snyder

Total Dough




Wt (g)

Bakers' %

Medium rye flour



Bread flour*






Sea salt



Instant yeast



Altus (optional)#

1/2 cup


Caraway seeds

1 tbsp


Polenta for dusting loaf bottom

1-2 tbsp


Cornstarch glaze #






* Traditionally, the wheat flour used in Jewish Sour Rye is First Clear Flour. Bread flour (13-14% protein) can be substituted. The flavor will be slightly different. If higher protein flour is used, some increase in hydration would be needed to achieve the proper dough consistency. All Purpose flour (10-11.5% protein) can also be used, but hydration may need to be decreased. See below for more details.

# See Ingredient Notes

Rye Sour (Levain)




Wt (g)

Bakers' %

Medium rye flour






Active starter (rye or wheat), 100% hydration







Final Dough



Wt (g)

Bread flour




Sea salt


Instant yeast


Altus (optional)

1/2 cup

Rye sour


Caraway seeds

1 tbsp

Polenta (to dust loaf bottom)

1-2 tbsp





  1. Two days before you are planning to bake the rye breads, active your rye sour and build it to sufficient weight, as described below.

  2. One day before you are planning to bake the rye breads, soak your altus, if using. The cornstarch glaze can be made a day or two ahead or at the last minute, while the loaves are proofing (Step 10., below).

  3. In a large bowl or the bowl of an electric mixer, dissolve the yeast in the water, then add the rye sour and altus, if using it, and mix thoroughly with your hands, a spoon or, if using a mixer, with the paddle.

  4. Stir the salt into the flour and add this to the bowl and mix well.

  5. Dump the dough onto the lightly floured board and knead until smooth. If using a mixer, switch to the dough hook and knead at Speed 2 until the dough begins to clear the sides of the bowl (8-12 minutes). Add the Caraway Seeds about 1 minute before finished kneading. Even if using a mixer, I transfer the dough to the board and continue kneading for a couple minutes. The dough should be smooth but a bit sticky.

  6. Form the dough into a ball and transfer it to a lightly oiled bowl. Cover the bowl and let it rest for 15-20 minutes.

  7. Transfer the dough back to the board and divide it into two equal pieces for 1.5 lb loaves. (Can be baked as one 3 lb loaf, with adjustments described below in Step 13.)

  8. Form each piece into a pan loaf, free-standing long loaf or boule.

  9. Dust a piece of parchment paper or a baking pan liberally with cornmeal, and transfer the loaves to the parchment, smooth side up, keeping them at least 3 inches apart so they do not join when risen. Alternately, transfer the formed loaves to floured bannetons/brotformen. If using a basket for proofing, place the loaves smooth side down.

  10. Cover the loaves and let them rise until double in size. (About 60-75 minutes.)

  11. Pre-heat the oven to 500ºF with a baking stone in place. Prepare your oven steaming method of choice.

  12. When the loaves are fully proofed, uncover them. Brush them with the cornstarch glaze. Score them. (3 cuts across the long axis of the loaves would be typical.) Turn down the oven to 460ºF. Transfer the loaves to the oven, and steam the oven.

  13. After 15 minutes, remove any container with water from the oven, turn down the oven to 440ºF and continue baking for 20-25 minutes more. (If baking one 3 lb loaf, turn the oven down to 425ºF rather than 440ºF and bake for another 35 minutes rather than 20-25 minutes.)

  14. The loaves are done when the crust is very firm, the internal temperature is at least 205ºF and the loaves give a “hollow” sound when thumped on the bottom.

  15. Transfer the loaves to a cooling rack. Brush again with the cornstarch solution.

  16. Cool completely before slicing.

This is a 3 pound loaf, twice the size of the Jewish Sour Rye I most often make. It was made for a "deli night" at my synagogue. It should keep a good-size portion of corn beef well-contained. This bread was made with Central Milling'a Organic Medium Rye and Breadtopia's Organic High-gluten Bread Flour.

For your interest, the slices are approximately 5 inches across and 4 inches high.

Notes on Ingredients

Flours: Jewish Sour Rye Bread, often called “Deli Rye” or “New York Rye Bread,” is traditionally made with white rye flour and First Clear Flour.

White rye flour is rye flour from which the bran and the germ have been removed during milling. It is comparable to all purpose (wheat) flour. It is pretty bland in flavor, which is fine, if you don't like the flavor of rye. However, I do like rye, and I prefer to make this bread with either “Medium Rye Flour” or stone ground whole rye flour.

First Clear Flour is a wheat flour made from what's left after the central part of the endosperm has been removed. The latter is used in so-called “Patent Flour,” which is the whitest (and blandest) of wheat flours, short of the bleached varieties. First Clear was regarded as somewhat inferior to patent flour in the past and was presumably relatively inexpensive. I would guess this is why it was used by the New York Jewish Bakeries for their rye breads. First Clear Flour is more flavorful than all purpose and has more color. Its flavor is distinctive. Chemically, it is relatively high in minerals, which is a good thing for both the organisms in the rye sour and for the human consumer. It is also high in protein, although the gluten is said to be of relatively poor quality. Today, First Clear is hard to find and is costly. I find that it does contribute to the authentic Jewish Sour Rye flavor, but the difference in flavor when a white high-gluten flour is substituted is pretty small.

Altus: “Altus” comes from the German/Yiddish word for “old.” In the baking context, it refers to bread – generally rye bread – from a previous bake that is soaked in water. The absorbed water is squeezed out and the altus is incorporated into a new batch of dough.

Altus was originally a way for a baker to re-cycle bread that had not sold the day before. Bakeries had a slim profit margin, and they could not make a living if anything was wasted. However, the practice of using altus became so prevalent that the German government eventually set a limit on how much altus a loaf of bread could contain. In truth, rather than detracting from the quality of rye bread, the use of altus – at least in small proportions – actually enhances the flavor and texture of the fresh-baked loaf.

If I have part of a rye loaf that is not going to get eaten before it gets stale, I wrap it in plastic wrap, put it in a food safe plastic bag and freeze it. Then, the night before I am going to be making rye bread, I take it out of the freezer to thaw overnight. The next morning, I cut the crust off of thick slices and cut the bread into 1” cubes. I place these in a bowl and cover it with boiling water. After an hour or so, I remove the bread in handfuls, squeeze out the water and set the altus aside to incorporate into the rye bread dough I will be mixing.

Cornstarch glaze: Jewish Sour Rye Bread is customarily brushed with something before and/or after baking to make the crust shiny. It could be brushed with egg white, water or cornstarch. I think cornstarch is most common, and that is what I use.

To prepare the cornstarch glaze, whisk 1-1/2 to 2 Tablespoons of cornstarch in ¼ cup of water. Pour this slowly into a sauce pan containing 1 cup of gently boiling water, whisking constantly. Continue cooking and stirring until slightly thickened (a few seconds, only!) and remove the pan from heat. Set it aside.

Care and Feeding of a Rye Sour:

“Rye Sour” is the term used for a sourdough starter fed with rye flour. Whether you have a healthy rye sour already or are going to be making yours by converting a wheat-based sourdough stater to rye, I recommend building the sour up to sufficient quantity over three “builds.” This involves starting with a small amount of rye or wheat sourdough starter, feeding it water and fresh rye flour, letting that mix ferment, feeding it again and repeating this process a total of three times to end up with sufficient rye sour for making your rye bread dough. The rule of thumb is that, each time you feed a rye sour, you should be at least doubling its total weight. So, for example, to make the rye sour for the formula given above, I would proceed as follows:

First feeding (makes about 80g)

  1. Place 20g of rye sour (or wheat-based sourdough starter) in a small bowl.

  2. Add 30g of warm water and mix to dissolve the sour in the water.

  3. Add 30g of rye flour and mix thoroughly. This will make a fairly thick paste.

  4. Smooth the past out and cover it completely with additional rye flour sprinkled over the surface in a thin layer.

  5. Cover the bowl and let it ferment until it is ripe. The sour is “ripe” when it has increased in volume to form a shallow “dome” which pushes the dry flour on the surface apart to form widely spaced “islands.” (Depending on how active your seed sour is, this may take anywhere between 6 and 16 hours. I usually starter with a sour that hasn't been feed very recently, so it needs to be “activated” by this first feeding. I generally do this before bedtime and let it ferment overnight.)

Second feeding (makes about 280g)

  1. Transfer the rye sour into a clean, medium bowl.

  2. Add 100g of warm water and mix to dissolve the sour in the water.

  3. Add 100g of rye flour and mix thoroughly. This will make a fairly thick paste.

  4. Smooth the past out and cover it completely with additional rye flour sprinkled over the surface in a thin layer.

  5. Cover the bowl and let it ferment until it is ripe. (Since the sour is now more active, this “build” usually ripens in 6-8 hours. So, I might do this feeding in the morning and expect to do the third feeding mid-afternoon of the same day.)

Third Feeding (makes about 800g)


  1. Transfer the rye sour into a clean, large bowl.

  2. Add 260g of warm water and mix to dissolve the sour in the water.

  3. Add 260g of rye flour and mix thoroughly. This will make a fairly thick paste.

  4. Smooth the past out and cover it completely with additional rye flour sprinkled over the surface in a thin layer.

  5. Cover the bowl and let it ferment until it is ripe. (Since the sour is generally very active by now, I expect it to be ripe in 4-7 hours. If I have fed it in the mid-afternoon, it will be ripe between my dinner time and bed time. At this point, I usually refrigerate the rye sour overnight, tightly covered. This overnight “retardation” will result in more acid building up in the sour and a more sour flavor in the bread. I happen to enjoy that. If you don't like your rye bread as sour, you need to work out your feedings so the third feeding is ripe at a convenient time for you to proceed. This could include a shorter period of cold retardation, if that is more convenient for you.)

  6. You can save the leftover rye sour for the next time you bake, if you want. If so, put it in a clean small bowl with a tight-fitting cover, and keep it refrigerated. This will stay healthy for a couple weeks at least. If you want to keep it longer without using it to make bread, just do a First feeding, as described above, and refrigerate that without letting it ferment at room temperature.

Ripe Rye Sour, illustrating the dry rye flour divided into "islands" by expansion of the ripening sour.

Happy baking!


Ru007's picture

Hello friends! 

This weeks' bake was fun for me, tried a few new things. Second time doing coil folds for gluten development (I like it), first time using a "young levain" (I don't like it), first time using a stencil for my design (I like it!)


160g 100% hydration levain (73% whole wheat, 27% rye), used after 5 hours. [Normally, I'd use it just after it peaks, 10ish hours after feeding. The dough felt a bit different this time, really soft and not as tight. It wasn't terrible, just not what I'm used to.]

294g water 

315g white bread flour

55g whole wheat flour

40g toasted mixed seeds soaked in 40g water overnight.

11g salt


1. 2 hour autolyse. 

2. Mix in levain, seeds and salt using regular folds with 10min rest in between each fold for an hour. 

3. 4 coil folds, during bulk 45mins apart, leave to finish bulk fermenting for about 2hours or until there's loads of bubbles. 

4. Preshape, rest for 30min, shape and rest for another hour. 

5. Retard overnight. 

6. Bake @ 250dC with steam for 20mins and then 23mins without steam. 

I'm happy with the spring on this one: 

I didn't handle the dough very well when I was getting it out of the container to preshape, had I done better, I think I could have gotten a better crumb. I'm not too bothered though, the taste and texture are great. The crumb is much softer than my seeded loaves usually are. Maybe because of the less acidic younger levain? 

I loved making the stencil, it was so relaxing and therapeutic.

Credit for the design goes to @sourdough_nouveau (link:

I did tweak the pattern a bit to make it more "me". 

I almost got super clean lines, but then I smudged the flour as I took the loaf out of the oven, so close... LOL!! 

Happy baking everyone, and have a great week :)


Elsie_iu's picture

This bread is similar to another bread I baked some times ago. However, this version is, without a doubt, at least 10 times better than that one!  


5-Grains Black Sesame Parmesan YW Sourdough…with a Kick


Dough flour (all freshly milled):

75g       25%       Whole red fife wheat flour

75g       25%       Whole spelt flour

60g       20%       Sprouted white wheat flour

60g       20%       Sprouted durum flour

30g       10%       Toasted buckwheat flour


For leaven:

5g        1.67%       Starter

20g      6.67%       Bran sifted out from dough flour

20g      6.67%       Yeast water


For dough:

280g     93.3%       Dough flour excluding bran for leaven

168g        56%       Water

100g     33.3%       Whey

45g          15%       Leaven

9g              3%       Toasted black sesame seeds, coarsely ground

9g              3%       Vital wheat gluten

6g              2%       Alt altus, powdered

5g         1.67%       Salt



30g         10%       Parmesan, cubed

4g        1.33%       Black mustard seeds, popped



302.5g      100%       Whole grain

290.5g     96.0%       Total hydration


Sift out the coarse bran from the dough flour, reserve 20g for leaven. Soak the rest (I got 7g) in equal amount of whey taken from dough ingredients.

Combine all leaven ingredients and let sit until doubled, around 3 hours.

Roughly combine all dough ingredients except for the salt, leaven, and soaked bran, autolyse for 20 minutes. Knead in the reserved ingredients than ferment for 15 minutes. Fold in the add-ins and ferment for 3 hours longer.

Preshape the dough then let it rest for 15 minutes. Shape the dough and put in into a banneton. Retard for 11 hours.

Preheat the oven at 250°C/482°F.

Score and spritz the dough then bake directly from the fridge at 250°C/482°F with steam for 15 minutes then without steam for 25 minutes more or until the internal temperature reaches a minimum of 208°F. Let cool for at least 2 hours before slicing.

The crust is extra crispy thanks to the fats of the cheese. The bread bloomed well in the oven since it was not over-proofed this time.

Considering the addition of parmesan and powdered black sesame, the crumb is relatively open. It is moist and chewy with some crunchiness from the mustard seeds.

Using my favourite combo, cheese and black sesame seeds, the flavour doesn’t disappoint. Mustard seeds add a pop of spiciness that keeps things interesting. Toasted buckwheat flour, especially when freshly milled, contributes a ton of flavour to this bread. It’s highly aromatic even when it accounts for 10% of total flour only. Sprouted white wheat, durum, spelt and red fife all provide sweetness, which pairs nicely with the slight bitterness of black sesame seeds.



An Indian meal comprised of potatoes and peas pulao, eggplants, cabbages and tomatoes saute and baked tandoori chicken drumettes

Stir fried glass noodles with cabbages, eggs, fried shrimps and pickled red onions

My parents stayed home for lunch today because of the attack of super typhoon. Spicy Daoxiao Noodles 刀削麵 with mixed veggies, mussels and sausages.


Pequod's picture

Recently acquired a Mockmill and decided that Maurizio’s 50% Fresh Milled Whole Wheat Sourdough at 84% hydration would be my first attempt at using fresh milled flour. I stayed pretty close to Maurizio’s procedure, rebalancing the formula a tad for a liquid levain.

Milling organic hard red spring wheat:

And the result:

Very happy with this result!

copynumbervariant's picture

Why not just use the flour of six grains? I guess for the same reason one mills flour fresh, but also I think the mediocrity of my blender is working with me here by creating variation in the size of particles. I get some noticeable bits, along with some flour soup.

I accidentally made a very high hydration dough (80%? 85%?), because I forgot that whole grains don't puree the way that quick oats did. Possibly oats are just especially thirsty. I began with more water to compensate for what I thought would be a lot of absorption, and then added more flour when I saw how soupy everything was. I didn't want to overdo the flour, since I was going by feel, and ended up with a much wetter dough than I've worked with before. The stretch and folds were easier, and the shaping went fine, but scoring made it spread very quickly to a diameter slightly wider than the combo cooker. When I placed the loaded parchment paper into the combo cooker (which is much trickier when the dough is this loose), the edges wrinkled to the contours of the wrinkled parchment. The loaf looks wonky, but I'm really pleased with the flavor and crumb (airy, with a little bit of that soaker-like moisture).

Next time I'll use less levain and warmer fermentation, so that a higher proportion of pureed grains can be incorporated. Another option would be to add some starter to the grains as they soak, but I'd have to watch things pretty carefully because I'm not sure exactly how much further along in fermentation this would get the dough once mixed. Also I doubt it, but I wonder if the blender would somehow harm the sourdough culture?

8:00pm 18 g each rye, spelt, barley, oats, red wheat, and kamut; soak in 320 g water

8:00pm mix levain 100 g starter, 100 g bread flour, 100 g water

8:20am puree soaker

8:20am mix autolyze 305 g bread flour, pureed soaker

9:10am knead together autolyze, levain, and 10 g salt

9:30am - 12:15am six stretch and folds

2:45pm shape

7:00pm bake covered

7:20pm uncover

8:00pm done

not.a.crumb.left's picture

This was a bit of an starter peaked in the evening and we needed bread but I realized that a full bulk would mean a late night and I was tired....

so after the baguette and ciabatta approach to bulk I let it bulk for 1 and 1/2 hour with 30 min coil folds until it was bubbly and showed life and then put the dough in the 5C wine cooler for the night.

At 7AM the following morning, I took it out and put it for 2 hours in 75F proofer to warm up and get a little bit more bubbly and lively...I gave it a gentle fold but left it mostly alone...

After that I did a pre-shape and the dough looked like holding shape nicely, 45 min bench rest and final shape of that 'to be named' fold on Trevor's IG.

Then I decided, as we really needed bread, to go for room proof and took dough 2 hours in the sun...

Sadly one stuck to the cloth and I had a close shave with this one.....

Scoring this wet dough at room temp was a 'drag' and surprised I got the ear after all....


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