Transcript of November 2012 #BreadChat (on Twitter)
Earlier today Chicago Amateur Bread Bakers [1] hosted the November 2012 #BreadChat [2] on Twitter [3]. Now in its tenth month, #BreadChat [2] is a Twitter [3] discussion hour for bakers of yeasted, artisanal breads.
During #BreadChat, @AmateurBakers [4] led the discussion through a handful of questions related to yeasted bread baking. During the November #BreadChat, we discussed pre-ferments, for example, sponge, poolish, biga, and levain. We began with the following questions:
Q1: Let's start by defining the pre-ferments: poolish, biga, sponge, levain. Temperature, %hydration, fermentation time for each? #BreadChat
Q2: What factors drive the choice of one pre-ferment over another? Flavor profile contributed to bread? Extensibility of dough? #BreadChat
Q3: Which pre-ferment is traditionally used with which bread? Why? E.g., biga in pizza, poolish in baguette, sponge in panettone #BreadChat
We were delighted to welcome back Eric Duhamel (@EricFrenchBaker [5]), Master Baker at Daylesford Organic, as co-host.
Below is the transcript of the chat. Please read from bottom to top, Twitter-style.
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ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @Edesiaskitchen [7] Happy you could join us today for #BreadChat [8]http://www.amateurbakers.org/p/breadchat.html … [9]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @cannyfradock [10] Experienced that, too. Easier to maintain a culture that's used regularly. Be sure to mark tweets w/ #BreadChat [8] so we hear you
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @nancybaggett [11] Yes, there's an endless amount to learn about bread baking, perfect for curious bakers. Happy to have you with us #BreadChat [8]
Eduardo Peirano @risedough [12] Thanks to @AmateurBakers [6] @ericfrenchbaker [13] @floursaltwater [14]@flour_and_yeast [15] @MortalGreenWhim [16] #breadchat [17]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @culinaryscience [18]@flour_and_yeast [15] @tiaingle [19] @hrunar [20] @Pricesthebakers [21] @stirthepots [22] À bientôt! #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] @culinaryscience [18]@flour_and_yeast [15] @tiaingle [19] @hrunar [20] @Pricesthebakers [21] @stirthepots [22] Bye for now. #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Shortly we'll post the next #BreadChat [8] date/time, as well as a link to today's transcript at http://www.amateurbakers.org/p/breadchat.html … [9]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] @culinaryscience [18] @flour_and_yeast [15] @tiaingle [19]@hrunar [20] @Pricesthebakers [21] @stirthepots [22] So happy you could join#BreadChat [8] today!
Eduardo Peirano @risedough [12] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] Dough Tests http://www.wheatflourbook.org/p.aspx?tabid=21 [24] #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] It was a pleasure to participate.#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @harbourhussy [25] @thebreadlist [26] @ShakeySemple [27]@turanobaking [28] Great questions & contributions today on#BreadChat [8]. Thanks!
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @realArtisan [29] @ArtisanF [30] @risedough [12] @thebreadlist [26] @harbourhussy [25]@Miquel_Saborit [31] @jbell54 [32] Thanks for chatting with us today on#BreadChat [8]!
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @risedough [12] @AmateurBakers [6]@MortalGreenWhim [16] They are uncommon in anglo-saxon bakery but are really important. #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Thank you very much! Always a pleasure to discuss bread with fellow bakers! #breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] And thank you to the many bread bakers who participated and listened in to today's #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] A big thank you to our co-host, Master Baker @EricFrenchBaker [13]#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] That's a wrap for #BreadChat [8].
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @risedough [12] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16]@EricFrenchBaker [13] The extensograph or alveograph are missing in here. #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @risedough [12] Sometimes, even with the tag, Twitter doesn't work properly... :-( #Breadchat [23]
Eduardo Peirano @risedough [12] @AmateurBakers [6] I am sorry I forgot to add the #breadchat [17] tag
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Oops, sorry. Wheat and Milling Tests referencehttp://www.wheatflourbook.org/p.aspx?tabid=64 [33] came from @risedough [12]#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @risedough [12] Be sure to mark each of your tweet with #BreadChat [8], so everyone can hear you.
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] @ericfrenchbaker [13] Great to dig a bit deeper though. :)#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] RT @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Wheat and Milling Tests http://www.wheatflourbook.org/p.aspx?tabid=64 [33] #BreadChat [8]
Eduardo Peirano @risedough [12] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Wheat and Milling Tests http://www.wheatflourbook.org/p.aspx?tabid=64 [34] #breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] #BreadChat [8] will be wrapping up shortly. If you've been listening in, please say hello!
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] But if you dig a bit, it's common to have this kind of consideration. #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] Ona daily life, maybe not... #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @MortalGreenWhim [16] Thank you for the references, Eric! #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] Thank you, Sonya! Wonderful to have you with us again for #BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] Otherwise, some websites like http://www.campden.co.uk [35] and others... #Breadchat [23]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @AmateurBakers [6] @ericfrenchbaker [13] will look for a link - recent broadcast on BBC featured lab. Thank you so much for #Breadchat [23]Goodnight
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] If you speak French, I'd recommend the INBP web site : http://www.cannelle.com [36]. #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Don't think those things are actually important on the daily life of a baker. :)#breadchat [17]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @AmateurBakers [6] It was good to be available to chat with you guys for once! First time I have been at home for #BreadChat [8] hour.
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @realArtisan [29] Nice to have you with us on today's #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Where can we learn more about flour/yeast labs/equipment? Any references would interest us. #BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @realArtisan [29] Have a good night. Cheers ! #Breadchat [23]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @AmateurBakers [6] and everyone.Must go now as up at 5.Damson-powered sourdough Rye with linseeds is rising slowly right now!#BreadChat [8] G'night!
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14]@flour_and_yeast [15] Some can also do leaven analysis. Everything's possible ! #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14]@flour_and_yeast [15] Some labs are specialised in flours analysis.#Breadchat [23]
Miquel Saborit Vilà @Miquel_Saborit [31] Sponge is a fermented, normal paste used in brioche, panettone, part of the ingredients of the final recipe, fat sugar free salt#breadchat [17].
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @AmateurBakers [6] @ericfrenchbaker [13] @floursaltwater [14]@flour_and_yeast [15] although there are some cool sourdough and yeast analysers #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @hrunar [20] Indeed, flashy colours are usually bad signs. :-) #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @flour_and_yeast [15] Thanks for chatting with us #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @floursaltwater [14]@flour_and_yeast [15] Do you have a lab where you can send samples for analysis? #BreadChat [8]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @floursaltwater [14]@AmateurBakers [6] there's a lot I should learn. Night all #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @floursaltwater [14] @flour_and_yeast [15]@AmateurBakers [6] Talking about analysis, falling number is only the beginning...#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @hrunar [20] Warning: if you see any wild colors: black, green, orange indicates undesirable mold/bacteria. Throw away and start over.#BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Other pre-ferment that is making the pages on the interwebs is "yeast water". Fruit or flowers + water, let steep for some days.#breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @hrunar [20] Chop petals finely, that helps. In few days, you should see bubbles in jar (fermentation). Add flower water+bread flour#BreadChat [8]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @hrunar [20] Should start to ferment in 2or 3 days.Feed Org.white flour and water over 3 or 4 days more and then make first dough.#BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @floursaltwater [14] @flour_and_yeast [15] @amateurbakers [6] Ah yes! Have a very good miller, phew.#Breadchat [23]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] Goggles! And Google!#Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] Already, the pre-fermentation is quite a geeky subject as it is simple and very complex at the same time.#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @hrunar [20] Welcome! In clean/sterilized jar, add elderflowers+water. Cover loosely. Set away from draft at room temp. #BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @flour_and_yeast [15] @amateurbakers [6] Or you get a good miller that fixes that part with falling numbers for you ;)#breadchat [17]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @hrunar [20] Hi. It's simple.1 cup elderflower petals 1x5ml spoon malt syrup dissolved in half cup warm water. Put in jar covered#BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] Need a bread lab and lots of new high tech equipment, and googles #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] That's it, if the malt is active. Otherwise, it brings only "fast" sugars. #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] A thing we didn't discuss: what's a sponge?! Another term for poolish? A part of the final dough that's autolysed? No clue#breadchat [17].
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Let's forget the falling test, maybe we're getting too geeky :)#breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @realArtisan [29] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] It's the Hagberg's falling test.#Breadchat [23]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] #breadchat [17]yes I've lost this thread completely lol
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] Is that why some do use malted wheat or barley? Faster fermentation and maybe better colour? #breadchat [17]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] Wow! Will be spending the rest of the week reading text books & not baking just to keep up#Breadchat [23]
Miquel Saborit Vilà @Miquel_Saborit [31] I use natural type biga ferment with fermentations at high T in short periods and followed and with sugar bath, for Panettone#breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] Falling number is influenced by amylases activity. #Breadchat [23]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] Oh Dear! I'm so not a technician. I had no idea there was a test for it! #BreadChat [8]
Runar Svendsen @hrunar [20] @realArtisan [29] Hi from Asker, Norway! How do you make starter from elderflowers? Or syrup? @floursaltwater [14] #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Yes and no. High diastasic activity will speed up the fermentation but not always loosen the dough.#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] Så klart! We can believe it. #BreadChat [8].
ImLeeBro @cookies_r_hench [37] #BreadChat [8] got any dough to buy a pizza
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] What factors contribute to falling numbers? Something to do with age of flour, or %gluten? #BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Trivia of the day: It was actually a Swede that invented the falling number test! #breadchat [17]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Resulting bread is usually very gummy and hopeless… #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] It can help but ... not always. This is a very tricky question. A low falling number would increase the time. #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] High amylase activity, starches are converted too rapidly into sugars and bread looses structure. #breadchat [17]
Turano Baking Co. @turanobaking [28] We're heading out — thanks for all the awesome and informative Q&A's. @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6]#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] What are "falling numbers" in flour? #BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] You can usually change a pre-fermentation but you will change the effects in the recipe.#Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] I'll just throw in a question regarding falling numbers in flour. Can low falling number be helped with pre-ferment? #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] Indeed ! Also, bacteria have more proteolytic activity than yeasts which changes the effects of the fermentation.#Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] Gud'day !! #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] The official #BreadChat [8] hour is up, but we'll continue on for another 20 minutes or so. Join us!
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] No worries ! #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Yes yes, once again.. so many variables! :)#Breadchat [23].
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] In fact, it's not only about acidity but also about enzymatic activity. #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @jbell54 [32] Nice chatting with you today on #BreadChat [8]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @amateurbakers [6] #BreadChat [8] please do! Thank you for brilliant bread chat today D'Day for now down under out ;)
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @tiaingle [19] Thanks for being with us on today's #BreadChat [8]
Janice Bell @jbell54 [32] @AmateurBakers [6] #breadchat [17] signing off now. Lots of food for thought!
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] As you joined us a bit late today, would you like to stay on and chat until 9:20pm UK time? #BreadChat [8]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @AmateurBakers [6] Do you have Elderflowers over there? They will give you a very mild flavoured wild starter but very active.#BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] I could advice what I've done for croissants in Auz : liquid leaven fermented at high temperature. #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Official #BreadChat [8] questions have been asked, time to open the floor for other questions on topic of pre-ferments.
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] #BreadChat [8] have to sign off now need to get kids ready for school catch up rest on transcript hopefully. Great stuff!
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] Acidity has been known to strengthen gluten strands, I guess. #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] Sometimes, you can get the opposite effect actually ! #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] In fact, all the pre-ferment can bring extensibility. But, this depends on the way you use them.#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Have you advice on developing a sweet wild yeast culture to use in, e.g., panettone? Tried many times & failed#BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Maybe, I'm no expert in the matter and sometimes I do confuse both :D #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] Biga for elasticity, how dough stretches+snaps back Poolish for extensibility, how far dough stretches b4 tearing#BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] It depends on the effects you want and your constraints as well. #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Talking about prefermentation is endless ! It's so various... #Breadchat [23]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] #BreadChat [8] is that with different types of flours or hydrations or what?
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] I do believe it comes to that and as you long as you get the kind of bread you want. #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] It was for technical purpose...#Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] When I was in gastronomic restaurant, I was using 2 preferments as well. #Breadchat [23]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @stirthepots [22] Exciting journey though #Breadchat [23]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @floursaltwater [14] @amateurbakers [6] #BreadChat [8] v interesting never tried it!
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] I like too sometimes. It's also a French habit ! ;-)#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @Pricesthebakers [21] Welcome to #BreadChat [8]. We're on question 3: http://www.amateurbakers.org/p/breadchat.html … [9]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Either that or each one will contribute different properties? Best of both worlds? Who knows. #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] Hee, yes. We Americans like to show off :-) #BreadChat [8]
Peter Cook @Pricesthebakers [21] Blimey. Just come in and found myself in the middle of#shropshirehour [38] and #breadchat [17] at the same time. #confusinghour [39]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @stirthepots [22] Recent bread history in UK is based exclusively on yeast. The renewal's started but it's a long way.#Breadchat [23]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @Miquel_Saborit [31] #BreadChat [8] nice crust and good holes
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @realArtisan [29] @ericfrenchbaker [13] @stirthepots [22] For barm bread you need some real ale which is not pasteurised or just the wort.#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] Interesting question! #BreadChat [8] Layering different flavor profiles, perhaps?
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] If it is the case, it's because of the balance, efficiency and to show off a bit as well... ;-) #Breadchat [23]
Miquel Saborit Vilà @Miquel_Saborit [31] @tiaingle [19] Ciabatta with Biga, baguettes with poolish... It depends on what you're looking for a bread... #breadchat [17]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Yes, sorry for the typo. Too few characters avaiable in Twitter :) #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] Firm levain + levain ?? What do you mean ? Stiff + liquid ? #Breadchat [23]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @stirthepots [22] @ericfrenchbaker [13] this is why the English don't have sourdough in recent bread history! Couldn't stop using beer#Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @Miquel_Saborit [31] Bacteria and yeast have their main fermentation ways which differs. So, this influences the effects. #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @Miquel_Saborit [31] This subject is very complex because extremely vast in diversity. #Breadchat [23]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @realArtisan [29] @ericfrenchbaker [13] poolish good for beer bread too - seems to preserve the flavour of both the sourdough and beer#Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Why is it so popular in the US to use several pre-ferments in a bread? US Team in Coupe du monde used Firm Levain + Levain #Breadchat [23]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @Miquel_Saborit [31] #BreadChat [8] what sort of recipes do you use for each ?
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @stirthepots [22] Barm is just the traditional English word for yeast.Originally obtained from brewers ale barms.#BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @Miquel_Saborit [31] In fact, pre-fermentations bring some comparable effects but plus or less on some aspects depending on their type.#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @jbell54 [32] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Almost any bread w/ pre-ferment can be made without using straight dough. Some flavor may be sacrificed #BreadChat [8]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] #BreadChat [8] potato water is good in preferment action
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Of course @stirthepots [22]! Thanks! But you can always adjust the hydration after the pre-ferment! #breadchat [17]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @stirthepots [22] @ericfrenchbaker [13] it's great to use one dough for pâté fermentee and mix with a different flour dough the next day.#Breadchat [23]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @Miquel_Saborit [31] #breadchat [17] great thank you. Makes sense
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @stirthepots [22] A "barm" is made including some ale in the recipe. #Breadchat [23]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] #BreadChat [8] a wet poolish / sponge seems to be good for sourdough rye
Miquel Saborit Vilà @Miquel_Saborit [31] The Biga adds gluten strength and push it in the oven. The Poolish extensibility to gluten, thin crust and flavorful bread #breadchat [17]
Janice Bell @jbell54 [32] @EricFrenchBaker [13] #breadchat [17] so do you always use a preferment?
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Q3: Depends on the traditional recipe.You can use any pre-ferment you want in a given recipe as long as u get the result u wanted #breadchat [17]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @AmateurBakers [6] Sorry guys . Looks like I jumped ahead on the question. #BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] A yeasted pre-ferment will bring mainly yeasts and an alcoholic fermentation.#Breadchat [23]
Jeremy Shapiro @stirthepots [22] @EricFrenchBaker [13] What about barm? #breadchat [17]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] @flour_and_yeast [15] #BreadChat [8] the effect seems to be speedier fermentation
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] However, depending on the type, you will get different effects.#Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] For doing it simple, a prefermentation will act like a natural improver. #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] It's very successful tonight but a bit difficult to follow... ;-) #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] I believe it's poolish, my readings say biga gives more strength to the dough. #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] @flour_and_yeast [15] A poolish and a leaven don't ferment the same way, so they have different effects. #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Q3: Which pre-ferment is traditionally used with which bread? Why? E.g., biga in pizza, poolish in baguette, sponge in panettone#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Let's move on to question 3. #BreadChat [8]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Poolish does give the bread that freshness and the nutty smell. Worth using for flûtes and baguettes I feel.#BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @realArtisan [29] @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] That's why I prefer to refer to a natural leaven, like in French : "levain naturel".#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] In your experience, which provides greater dough extensibility: poolish or biga? #BreadChat [8]
Jeremy Shapiro @stirthepots [22] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @EricFrenchBaker [13] I incorporate grains into ferment overnight and finish with remaining flour.. #breadchat [17]
Turano Baking Co. @turanobaking [28] RT @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] Biga is the Italian word for a yeasted pre-fermentation. #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @flour_and_yeast [15] Don't think so, for instance with 100% hydration sourdough you do get different properties than with poolish.#breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @realArtisan [29] @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] In English, traditionnally, a sourdough should be spontaneous but not always.#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @tiaingle [19] @flour_and_yeast [15] Wow, 40+C must put a strain on yeast fermentation, too. 27–32° C optimum range for yeast to grow#BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @stirthepots [22] @ericfrenchbaker [13] pâté fermentee can be dough mixed 12-16 hours (or so) before mixing with final dough #Breadchat [23]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] #breadchat [17]. So the wetter the preferment the bigger the extensibility
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Love working with poolish, love doing baguettes with poolish very fun to shape! #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] Biga is the Italian word for a yeasted pre-fermentation. #Breadchat [23]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] More about pre-ferment affecting dough properties, I do believe poolish gives a bigger extensibility to the dough. #Breadchat [23]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @flour_and_yeast [15] @ericfrenchbaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] As far as we are concerned a sourdough should be wild yeast only.No levure. #BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] Poolish is a French expression for a liquid yeasted pre-fermentation.#breadchat [17]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] @ericfrenchbaker [13] #BreadChat [8]was once told levain was also referred to as "Chef"
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] #breadchat [17]. So a sourdough
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] A "levain-levure" is a yeasted stiff pre-fermentation. #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] A "pâte fermentée" is just a fermented dough, usually yeasted. #breadchat [17]
Miquel Saborit Vilà @Miquel_Saborit [31] @floursaltwater [14] #breadchat [17] not sorry.
Jeremy Shapiro @stirthepots [22] @EricFrenchBaker [13] What about old dough, from previous batch? #breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @floursaltwater [14] A natural leaven is a spontaneous fermentation which is developed and sustained by refreshments. #breadchat [17]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Lalos who wrote "Le Pain: L'envers du décor" says that pre-ferments contribute differently to dough properties. #breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Pate fermentee is simply old dough. What is levain-levure? Haven't heard that term before#BreadChat [8]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] @flour_and_yeast [15] #BreadChat [8] are you sure? I think there is a big effect when the temperatures rack up to+40C here
Janice Bell @jbell54 [32] #breadchat [17] @flour_and_yeast@amateurbakers@EricFrenchBaker are all these terms interchangeable depending on their origin?
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @flour_and_yeast [15] @AmateurBakers [6] Hydration influences as well the speed, and so the taste. #breadchat [17]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @EricFrenchBaker [13] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] #breadchat [17]. Cool, so I'm mo interested in what difference it makes to end result the wetter
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @EricFrenchBaker [13] What are the differences between a levain-levure and a pate fermentee? Salt? #breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Q2: What factors drive the choice of one pre-ferment over another? Flavor profile contributed to bread? Extensibility of dough?#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Let's move on to question 2 #BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @flour_and_yeast [15] @amateurbakers [6] Probably right. I use a sourdough biga for ciabatta which is a similar to my sourdough levain #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @flour_and_yeast [15] @AmateurBakers [6] The hydration influence the way of fermentation. #breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @tiaingle [19] @flour_and_yeast [15] Ambient humidity is a factor, for sure. But it's a small factor, on the order of 1-5%, usually #BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Biga: "low hydration helps develop acidity, which helps when you're deling with weak local flours." from theFreshLoaf forums#breadchat [17]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @flour_and_yeast [15] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] Indeed, a biga seams to be a generic word in Italy for yeasted pre-fermentation#breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @flour_and_yeast [15] Standards are few in bread baking, it seems. Bakers deal more in ranges, and accumulated experience#BreadChat [8]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @flour_and_yeast [15] @amateurbakers [6] #BreadChat [8] % would be depend at on the ambience of the environment one is working in don't you think?
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] In France we can use a "yeasted leaven" (levain-levure), close to the biga, which is a stiff yeasted one.#BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @realArtisan [29] Interesting. Maybe biga is just the word in italian for pre-ferment or "old dough". Any Italian there? #breadchat [17]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @AmateurBakers [6] #breadchat [17], assume there is no standard then? As everyone seems to have a different view or %s
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Poolish, biga, levain, we leave all of these for 12-16 hours at room temperature. #BreadChat [8]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @floursaltwater [14] Our Biga Acida starter for Pane Rustica is at least 100% hydrated. Tremendous flavour! #BreadChat [8]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] A poolish is liquid (100 % hydration or more), a leaven can be stiff or liquid.#BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @realArtisan [29] thanks will take a look. Trying not to feel guilty for ignoring the joys of cabbage #Breadchat [23]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @EricFrenchBaker [13] #BreadChat [8] is there any importance in type of hydration medium?
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @Miquel_Saborit [31] Are we discussing hydration in pre-ferments?#breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] is Twitter having problems where you are?#BreadChat [8]
Miquel Saborit Vilà @Miquel_Saborit [31] @floursaltwater [14] agree with you... But the % of water will vary according to the protein in the flour... #breadchat [17]
Janice Bell @jbell54 [32] #breadchat [17] I understood bigs to be a thickish dough thus less wet than poolish.
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] Biga, from what I've seen is a medium hydration.#BreadChat [8]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @MortalGreenWhim [16] The sauerkraut has a positive effect on the texture too. Choucroute Alsacienne is our favourite. #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] Good questions! Yes, these ideas coming up in question 2 , after covering some fundamentals :-) #BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] I do the same but have to account for seasonal temps by adjusting yeast or s/dough culture & time #Breadchat [23]
Turano Baking Co. @turanobaking [28] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Welcome! #BreadChat [8]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @realArtisan [29] @amateurbakers [6] #BreadChat [8] biga as I understand is Italian in origin an fairly wet
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] We're on question 1, will re-tweet it for you.#BreadChat [8]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] #breadchat [17] sorry jumping ahead
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] Welcome to our co-host! #BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @flour_and_yeast [15] IMHO they do cause different behaviours in the dough, extensibility, strenght, etc. but that's question 2 #breadchat [17]
Turano Baking Co. @turanobaking [28] Good Question! MT @floursaltwater [14] what diff. does each 1 make to the end result? #breadchat [17] or is it simply different means to the same end?
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] We leave our pre-ferments at room temperature: poolish, biga, levain. #BreadChat [8]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @floursaltwater [14] what difference does each one make to the end result? #breadchat [17] or is it simply different means to the same end?
Turano Baking Co. @turanobaking [28] RT @AmateurBakers [6] It's actually the other way around, poolish is wet (100% hydration), the biga firm (say 60% hydration)#BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @harbourhussy [25] I tried courgettes and cheese a few times. Needed a whiskey to recover from dealing with so much alien slime :) #Breadchat [23]
Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker [13] Good evening, Sorry, I'm a bit late for #BreadChat [8]... Appologies !
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] @culinaryscience [18] #BreadChat [8] what about sponge & levain?
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @EricFrenchBaker [13] seems to be having technical problems. We'll push on until he can join us :-) #BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] For me: Biga 40% Hydration, Levain (Firm SD): around 60% hydration, Poolish: 100% hydration #Breadchat [23]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @realArtisan [29] Sounds amazing. Could be tempted...#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @culinaryscience [18] @tiaingle [19] It's actually the other way around, poolish is wet (100% hydration), the biga firm (say 60% hydration) #BreadChat [8]
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Some people (the french) can define levain as being a firm sourdough and levain chef as the "regular sourdough".@EricFrenchBaker [13] #BreadChat [8]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @AmateurBakers [6] Definition could get a bit cheeky: wet, stiff, frothy, French! #Breadchat [23]
David Mason @culinaryscience [18] @floursaltwater [14] ah I stand corrected, my apologies #BreadChat [8]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @culinaryscience [18] @amateurbakers [6] #BreadChat [8] higher hydration r what?
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] @MortalGreenWhim [16] We make a nice light rye with lots of caraway and Sauerkraut . #BreadChat [8]
Lisa Brunton Stocks @harbourhussy [25] @MortalGreenWhim [16] I certainly use many local beers,we have a whisky distillery 7 miles from us,I love onions,leeks,oats & barley#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @realArtisan [29] Welcome to #BreadChat [8]!
David Mason @culinaryscience [18] @tiaingle [19] @amateurbakers [6] I believe a biga is more wet than a poolish #BreadChat [8]
Simon Thomas @realArtisan [29] #BreadChat [8] Good evening Breadfolks!
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] @AmateurBakers [6] #BreadChat [8] what is the difference between polish biga etc
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @harbourhuss Lots of onions and other local produce: beer, herbs, cheese, fruit. Not moved to make cabbage bread yet! #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Q1: Let's start by defining the pre-ferments: poolish, biga, sponge, levain. Temperature, %hydration, fermentation time for each?#BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @ArtisanF [30] Welcome to #BreadChat [8]!
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Breadchatt-ers, let's get started with question 1 #BreadChat [8]
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] #BreadChat [8] G'Day everyone got kookaburras serenading for us out there this morning in the #Riverland [40]
Artisan Foodworks @ArtisanF [30] @AmateurBakers [6] #BreadChat [8] Hello from Lancashire!
Lisa Brunton Stocks @harbourhussy [25] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @amateurbakers [6] hmmmm,not so sure!!!!!Lincolnshire has great veg,do you put any in your breads?#Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @risedough [12] @thebreadlist [26] @harbourhussy [25] @Miquel_Saborit [31]Welcome to #BreadChat [8]!
Janice Bell @jbell54 [32] #breadchat [17] forgot to say I'm in Worcestershire.
Miquel Saborit Vilà @Miquel_Saborit [31] Hello everyone!! #breadchat [17]
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @harbourhussy [25] @amateurbakers [6] I'm inside don't worry. No mud in here #Breadchat [23]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @culinaryscience [18] Welcome to #BreadChat [8]!
Bruce Ezzell @thebreadlist [26] i'm here for once. #breadchat [17]
Eduardo Peirano @risedough [12] Hi all, from Montevideo, Uruguay #breadchat [17]
Lisa Brunton Stocks @harbourhussy [25] @MortalGreenWhim [16] @amateurbakers [6] not stood in muddy fields like Sonya!!!!Hello from the North East of Scotland,let the #Breadchat [23]begin!;-)
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @jbell54 [32] @ShakeySemple [27] @turanobaking [28] @MortalGreenWhim [16]Welcome to #BreadChat [8]!
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] @AmateurBakers [6] Söderbergs Bageri with Mattias Wallmark from the Swedish national baking team (4th on Coupe du Monde Boulangerie) #BreadChat [8]
Janice Bell @jbell54 [32] #breadchat [17] looking forward to an interesting hour.
David Mason @culinaryscience [18] I'm here #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @floursaltwater [14] Hejsan Paulo! Welcome to #BreadChat [8], happy you could join us. At which Stockholm bakery are you an apprentice?
Sonya Hundal @MortalGreenWhim [16] @AmateurBakers [6] so happy to be breadchatting again #Breadchat [23]I'm in muddy fields in Lincolnshire UK
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @flour_and_yeast [15] Welcome to #BreadChat [8]!
Turano Baking Co. @turanobaking [28] Loving all things bread from Chicago, IL #BreadChat [8]
David Semple @ShakeySemple [27] @AmateurBakers [6] good evening from CoDown #BreadChat [8]
Janice Bell @jbell54 [32] #breadchat [17] signing in
Paulo Sebastião @floursaltwater [14] Howdy from Stockholm, Sweden! Bread lover here and recently turned "weekend" apprentice #breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] We're thrilled to once again have @EricFrenchBaker [13] as our co-host, today chatting about pre-ferments. #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] When you come online, please say hello and tell us where you're tweeting from (even if you'll be listening in :-) #BreadChat [8]
Simon @flour_and_yeast [15] @AmateurBakers [6] I'm here #breadchat [17]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] @tiaingle [19] Welcome to #BreadChat [8]! Thanks for waking up early in Australia to join us!
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] Welcome to #BreadChat [8] -- welcoming bread bakers, both amateur and professional, from around the globe!
Tia Ingle @tiaingle [19] Think I'm up on time for #BreadChat [8]
ChicagoAmateurBakers @AmateurBakers [6] #BreadChat [8] in 5!