The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Double knot roll

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

Double knot roll

with all the flour i bought i  cant just let it sit there so i made two dozen of these . i gave one dozen to a friend and this is the other

knot1

knot2

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Norm.

Those look delicious.

Do you use the same formula as for the onion rolls for the dough?


David

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

this formula is a soft crust roll not the same as the onion roll

ovguide's picture
ovguide

Hi,


 


Thank you for your recipe! 


 


Here is my questions:


1).How long should I roll out the dough before I make the knot.


2).What does it mean "alow 3/4 proof "?


3). How to you make egg wash?


4). How long do I bake for 2.5 oz dough?


Thank you!


 


Thank you!


 




 



dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I assume by "how long" you mean length, not time. You roll out the pieces to 12".


"3/4 proof" means the rolls are allowed to expand to 1.75 times their original size.


There are many ways to make an egg wash. The simplest is to just lightly beat an egg. You can add a tsp or so of water. You can add a pinch of salt. You can add an extra egg yolk. I generally go with the simplest. 


They should bake in about 15 minutes, but watch them.


Hope this helps.


David

ovguide's picture
ovguide

Thank you for your answering my questions!

Elagins's picture
Elagins

gorgeous, Norm. my wife saw them and a big smile blossomed on her face. Egg glaze?

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

in a word Yup

Patf's picture
Patf

Those look lovely, could just eat one now with my boiled egg.

I like the sesame ones best.

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Oh these look so delicious - is the formula here somewhere, or could you post it for me please? 

 

thanks in advance - 

 

Lynne

 

janij's picture
janij

Please!

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

suger 2 oz or  1 oz sugar and 1 oz honey for better freashness

salt 1/4 oz
shortening or butter or some kind of fat 1 1/4 oz
skim milk powder 1 0z

whole egg 2 oz (one large egg)
water 8 oz

patent (12.5% proten) bread flour 1 LB
fresh yeast 1oz or dry yeast 1/2 oz

one bulk rise and cut into 2.5-3 oz ( i get one dozen from this formula cut down from the bakery size of course)

mix well in a KAid or other mixer this dough will take 15-20 minutes but will come clean from the mixer using a C dough hook whold back from adding extra flour just let the mixer work should be a soft dough like white pan bread

shape into knots and alow 3/4 proof before washing them with egg wash wait 2 minutes and wash with egg wash a second time and bake at a low oven 350- 375-

do not alow full proof or the rolls will fall during washing and baking.

janij's picture
janij

A must try.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Sliced Thanksgiving turkey, mayo and lettuce.

I'm gonna do it!

Hmmm ... I figure 3.5 oz rolls?


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Norm,

I have 3 questions on this.

First do I understand that this is a 50% (plus the fat and egg) hydration dough? 1 pound of flour and half a pound of water? Using 2oz for the egg and 1.5 oz fat that would be a total of 63%, yes?

Second do you have a photo or description of the double knot for a graphically deficient beginner? I'm sure it's simple but I can't picture it.

Third, just to be sure the egg is in the dough and the wash is another egg? 

Thanks,

Eric 

keesmees's picture
keesmees

@ eric, double knot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oISBKnbjH_o

 

@ norm, yumm. nice ones.

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

yes the egg wash is a second egg

if you want to call me i could talk you through the shape which would make it very clear.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric.

In addition to the video already suggested, both Hamelman and Greenstein have line drawings and written directions for making up rolls like Norm's.

But a warning: Hamelman's instructions are in his section on braiding. There is a serious risk of getting sucked into a vortex of possibilities. But, apparently, he provides a mere sampling. He talks about learning from an old German bakery manual with "hundreds" of braiding patterns.


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David,
I saw that in Bread. I just thought maybe Norm would have a slant on doing the braid/knot that would be traditional. I do 6 strand Challah but I'm usually drooling by the second from neural overload:>). You gave me a good idea for Turkey day. My absolute favorite part of Thanksgiving dinner is the sandwich later and next day. I'll bet that dough would be good for those.

I'm just wrapping up a post on JH VSD with additional whole grain flour (Bread, Pg. 156). If you haven't tried that one, you should give a go word for word. It's very good and nice and tangy without the overnight retard. Quiet a surprise.

Eric 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric.

I'm betting Norm uses exactly the same technique. I think it is very "traditional." But, we'll let him comment.

I have and have not made the Vermont SD with Increased Whole Grain. I haven't made it from "Bread." However, in reading it, I find it is almost identical to the "pain de campagne" alias "San Joaquin Sourdough" I make. Mine uses 10% whole rye rather than Hamelman's 15%, and I retard the dough during bulk fermentation. Even the proportion of pre-ferment is the same.

That is so interesting, since my formula was developed experimentally as Janedo and I fiddled with Anis Bouabsa's baguette formula.


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Hi David,

When I was working on my rye formula, after all the fooling with the amounts and times, I discovered that I had arrived at Greenstein's/Hamelmans recipe. It was enjoyable getting there and I learned quite a bit in the process so what the hey. :>)

Lately I have been thinking about how much I enjoy the progress I have been making. My breads are starting to come together well and look as good as they taste. I've only been baking for a couple years and just now I'm starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. I'm beginning to appreciate the more subtle changes that seem to have a large effect on flavor.

I prefer to not extend the baking cycle to 3 days by using an overnight retard phase. For me it's just to hard to stay on task and find time to follow through. So many distractions with home/kids and computer support. Everybody has an emergency. I'm sure you know of what I speak. My oldest daughter thinks it's weird I plan my schedule around "bread". Hahaha!

Eric 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric.

The emergence of skills and increased sense of competence is an upper, for sure.

Regarding 3-day baking cycles and retardation: Besides the impact on flavor, I find that retardation gives me more flexibility in time allocation for baking. It does require planning ahead, but it sure is easier for me to plan a 4 hour block of time than an 8 or 12 hour block.

Whichever, there are still times when the bread's demands stress other necessities.


David

Eli's picture
Eli

Those look great!!! I have to try this one!

Thanks Norm!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have the dough fermenting for a batch of these rolls, destined for leftover Thanksgiving Turkey sandwiches.

The dough came together nicely in 15-20 minutes, as Norm said it would. However, as I was mixing, I realized that, as comfortable as I feel with lean sourdoughs, I am still a novice when it comes to enriched doughs.

So, I'm asking: What is the best technique for combining the ingredients for a dough like this? Assuming machine mixing (KitchenAid, for example), can you just dump all the ingredients in the bowl, mix with the paddle, then knead with the hook?

Here's what I did, but I wonder if I made more of a fuss than was necessary:

1. Measured out each ingredient separately.
2. Mixed flour, salt and milk powder in a bowl.
3. Mixed water, sugar and yeast in the mixer bowl. Let it sit for a few minutes.
4. Added the flour-salt-milk mixture to the water-sugar-yeast and mixed.
5. Added the shortening and mixed. This was very dry.
6. Added the egg and mixed. This was now a wet dough.
7. Switched from the paddle to the dough hook and kneaded for about 20 minutes, scraping down the bowl a couple of time.

At this point, the dough cleaned the sides of the bowl but was sticking to the bottom, kind of like a 67-70% hydration lean dough would. The dough had good gluten development and was smooth but tacky.

So, was the mixing in stages a waste of time or not?


David

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Hi David,

Don't know if there is a right or wrong, but this is how I mix enriched doughs and it always seems to work fine.

Since I use active dry yeast, rather than instant, i hydrate the yeast in the water/milk and the dissolved sweeteners

Mix together the shortening and egg in a separate bowl

Blend the dry ingredients (flour, salt, etc.) with the paddle for a minute or so at low speed

Add both the water-based and fat-based liquids at the same time with the beater going and mix to blend before switching to the hook

I find that by adding the wets to the drys, I get a better, smoother dough, without any lumps.

Hope this helps, Stan

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder


David

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

I have nothing to add and no questions, yet, but want to follow this thread and be notified when something new is added.

 

Great rolls Norm.                                                                               weavershouse

Eli's picture
Eli

I just added flour and yeast (IDY). Then I beat egg with liquid ingredients and I did add the sugar at that point  and folded in flour. I added shortening when I had most of the dry incorporated with liquid. Then kneaded.  I don't normally use a mixer and it came together easy by hand.

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

i hope i can cover every body in this first the mixing you can add everything to the bowl at once with no problems with the one rule

if using fresh yeast like i do just crumble the yeast into the flour and add it last. if dry yeast follow the instructions on the yeast is active dry then put it in the water and add the water last on top of the flour  is instant yeast just add it to the flour and add the flour last.

mixing in stages is not needed just use the hook (for soft doughs like this a c shaped hook is best) the dough should be developed in about 20 minutes and come clean if not add maybe a 1/2 ounce more flour yours might have absorbed some moisture from the air.

as for shaping a knot just role a strip (we callit a stripe) about 9 to 10 inches long , take the right end if your right handed and make a loop de loop so that the right end is once again pointed to the right and the stripe now looks like the script letter e

pust the left end through the loop from the top down and the right end through the loop from the bottom up and thats it tour knot is formed

for a figure 8 put the stripe so one end is closer to you and the other end is pounted away. take the end closer to you and lopefrom right to left and press it into the middle of the stripe so in looke like the number 6 take the top end and push it through the loop so it is pointed to the left then take the bottom look and gige it a halv twist to the left and then take the losend and push it through the lobe .

yes i know ill make another bideo this week it is easer than it sounds

Cvincent's picture
Cvincent

Hello, I also tried this recipe and my question is at what speed do i mix this on with a mixer. I followed above and on kitchen aid mixer i initially started at a speed of 2-4 then once everything was incorporated i turned it up to 6-8.  At around 8-9 minutes later the dough started to pull away from the bowl and was kneeding nicely.  But if i slowed it down the gooey dough would then spiderweb out around the bowl and become a sticky mess.  I kept it going for the whole 15 minutes and ended up with very sticky stretchy dough that I just through in the trash as unable to use.  any tips?

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Norm(nbicomputers) is no longer on the forum. Unfortunantly, he passed away a couple of years ago.

What brand and type of flour are you using? I suspect you just needed to add a little more flour to adjust for the desired final dough consistency. One will often need to do this for almost any recipe.

Good luck.

ovguide's picture
ovguide

Should I use 8 oz cold or warm water?


Thanks!


 

melmo31's picture
melmo31

I just tried making these today.  This is my first post here too, so please don't critique too hard :)  I just thought this recipe was so nice to follow and I think mine came out pretty goodhamburger rolls

highmtnpam's picture
highmtnpam

Norm,


Those are beautiful and keep their shape after baking. Going to practice them for Thanksgiving.  Thank for recipe


Pam

Larzyo's picture
Larzyo

I made these the other day and ate them with some pulled pork. They were delicious.

 

I used half honey and half white sugar to sweeten it, and straight up butter for the fat. I also used 2% milk instead of the water and milk powder.

Robb1's picture
Robb1

they look great I will try them this weekend, I love these sort of posts but when there is a picture of rolls, cookies or something like that I just wish there was some sort of size key/guide so I know if mine are smaller then by how much.