The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

100% Rye

Elagins's picture
Elagins

100% Rye

As some of you know, I've fallen in love with rye flour because it's so different in chemistry and structure from wheat, and so challenging and rewarding to work with. Lately, I've been playing with different hydrations, fermentations and baking times/temps. This is my latest, a 70% hydration, 3-build sour (wild yeast only), using medium rye flour and baked at 250 for almost 3 hours. Apologies for the poor focus; I'll do better next time. (By the way, I used an electric food slicer to get those nice uniform slices):

Halloween 100% RyeHalloween 100% Rye

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Rye flour is something with which I have spent a good deal of time and it has taught me that bread like yours is not that easy to come by.  Very nicely done. 

As a side note I made a Borodinsky Rye yesterday with 85% home milled whole grain rye.

Jeff

staff of life's picture
staff of life

Hi Jeff:

How does your Borodinsky bread taste?  I hear it's very strong.  (But I like strong breads.)

SOL

staff of life's picture
staff of life

Have you made anything higher than a 70% hydration rye?  My understanding is that 100% can only be made in a loaf pan, but your bread is obviously free-form.  Did you have to wait a day to cut into it?  I'm very interested in the higher percentage rye loaves; I just haven't had time to work with them much yet.

SOL

Elagins's picture
Elagins

my 100% ryes tend toward higher hydrations -- say 75% to 80%. The trick is in the sour build ... by the third build, I've added 60% of the flour and 100% of the water, which allows the complex sugars to form long, flexible chains. I actually get much bigger spring out of the higher hydrations, which really makes sense when you consider that probably 80% of the oven-spring is from steam, and not yeast.

As for cutting, I baked those loaves on Saturday and cut them open on Tuesday. I generally like to leave my ryes uncut for at least 48 hours ...

Stan

staff of life's picture
staff of life

Hi Stan:

I think I have a pretty good grasp of what goes on during wheat fermentation, but my understanding of rye leaves a lot to be desired.  About this building of the sour: do you just take a small amount of starter and add in stages what will become most of the dough?  I thought that the breaking down of sugars in rye can turn the crumb sticky, and too much fermentation could cause that; could you clarify?  Also, how does the crumb compare to your higher hydration ryes?

SOL

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Rye is really cool stuff. Its chemistry is based on long-chain carbs called pentosans that agglutinate into gelatinous sheets -- very different from gluten. Thing is, pentosans are very susceptible to amylases, which break down complex sugars into simple sugars. However, acids retard the action of the amylases, thereby slowing considerably the breakdown of the pentosans. So the idea is to build the sour fairly gradually, to allow the lacto- and acetobacilli to produce lactic and acetic acids in sufficient quantities to hold back the amylases.

To further promote the formation of the acids, I also add a little salt to my initial build (10% of my total rye, 15% of my water, a dime-sized glob of my wheat sourdough starter). The salt inhibits the yeast, giving the bacteria more time to make acids. I generally let that first build sit 8-10 hours.

My second build uses 20% of the flour and another 35% of the water, and that also ferments for 10-12 hours or so (think overnight).

The third build uses 30% of the flour and the remaining 50% of the water, and at that point, should only need 3-4 hours for the sour to develop.

I then add the remaining 50% of the flour, enough salt to bring the total to 2% of flour weight, and mix with the paddle just to evenly hydrate the dough. Using the hook is pointless, since the dough doesn't stretch and flex like a wheaten dough.

Once the dough has doubled, I divide and shape it gently, put it on cornmeal-sprinkled parchment and let it proof for another hour or so.

I spray the loaves with water, peel them into the oven, and bake at 450 for the first 10 minutes with lots of steam to promote spring, then dial it down to 250 or so for another 2-3 hours. Brush or spray the loaves with water when they come out to soften the crust and don't cut into them for at least 2 days.

As for the crumb, I find that my higher hydrations produce a softer, more open crumb.

The trick to all of it is making sure there's enough acid in the dough to protect the pentosans. Rye is far more absorptive than wheat, so the higher hydrations work very well, as long as you treat the flour gently and respect the pentosans.

Hope this helps

goetter's picture
goetter

Bravo.

At what temperature do you keep your builds?

Elagins's picture
Elagins

OK, temperature is just room temp. Rye is sufficiently volatile so that it'll ferment under any circumstances.

As for retardation and acidity, etc. Specifically, according to Jim, my biochemistry PhD brewmaster friend and mentor, the effect of acid on amylase action is precisely why sours need to be acidic. I think that as far as retardation goes, the salt in the first build acts as a kind of retardant, slowing down the fermentation (i.e., digestion of sugars) while allowing the acidity to increase.

Interesting question about too much acidity. I've never had that problem, and I've fed sours for as long as 4-5 days before using them in bread. I think the fact that most breads call for a sizable addition of flour just before final fermentation would suggest that the sour, however acidic, is going to be diluted. The only place where I can think of a bread made exclusively of sour is Jewish corn rye, but even there, the final build only ferments for a couple of hours or so.

The bigger problem would be the overfermentation and degradation of the complex carb chains if you let the sour get "too acidic", i.e., let it sit for a long time, since acid only *slows* the amylases; it doesn't neutralize them entirely, and I'm not sure, nor is Jim, the extent to which different levels of acidity influence the amylases. In my opinion, the overfermentation and corresponding increase of amylase degradation of the complex carbs is sure to create a breakdown in the chains and result in a gummy, dense crumb.

So, a long-winded and inconclusive answer to a couple of really interesting questions.

Stan

staff of life's picture
staff of life

Hi Stan:

I appreciate your taking the time to type up that explanation.  I have two questions still:  Am I correct in my understanding that unlike a wheat starter, a rye starter that's really sour will help with the structure?  I think I read that in one of my books, although I can't find which one.  Secondly, can a rye dough get too acidic? I notice that rye doughs are never recommended for retarding, and I'm guessing it's for that reason?  If a rye dough can get overly acidic, what happens to the structure/crumb?

Thanks for helping me understand rye better!

SOL

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

For me a first, I retarded my rye dough.  Roughly 70% rye and 30% bread wheat flour.  The last stage contained 500g rye starter, 1000g water, 750g Rye flour, 400g wheat, 30g salt.  Half the water was scalded with 80g Cream of Wheat and 100g of the rye flour, spices and 30g of roasted assorted flours.   A two stage rye.  Normally I let this stand in a banneton after 4 hours then watch it rise until I bake, 3-4 hours later.


Instead, I divided the dough into two lumps (about an hour after mixing) kneaded lightly (about 2 minutes adding more water) added walnuts to one, and put them together with a divider (bench scraper) in a rectangular lightly oiled plastic container.  They sat on the counter top 4 hours and had 1/3 additonal height when I tucked them into the refrigerator.


It is thaw out time...  Now as my oven can only bake one loaf at a time, I'm leaving one loaf in the fridge another hour.   The dough is very stiff and I'm thinking about... what now?   It has doubled.  I think I will flatten it out warming up the dough and then roll it up, shape and put into the banneton to rise.   The scalding gives a little edge on handling although still very sticky.


How did your retarding of rye come out?


Mini

Elagins's picture
Elagins

i routinely retard my 100% ryes. without getting into too much detail (publishers and all ...) i build my 100% rye breads in 4 stages and generally retard overnight after my stage 3 feed/ferment. I find it works best for me when i make sure it gets a complete ferment after stage 4 and then *carefully* shape it so as to keep degassing to a minimum, then let it proof for another 60-90 minutes, then bake in a gradually reducing oven from 400-250 for about 6 hours.

I use whole-grain dark rye and coarse rye meal and that bread gets BLACK!!!!, dense and very very sour. takes me back to the bad old days in the ghettoized villages of Russia and Poland!

yours sounds much more interesting.

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Not too happy with these, the crust color looks orange, like pumpkin bread and the loaves just couldn't contain themselves!  A crust lover's temptation to rip off chunks.  But hey!  This isn't a fluffy loaf! (<repeat)  It's supposed to be rather dense and tight.  I want to know... Who the crumb bonkers told my rye it was liberated?  Does this look like a 70% rye to you?


The first loaf, I slashed and stashed into a steamy hot oven.  The oven seemed too hot  (often reported with scalded flour) so I had to turn down the temp to finish baking the loaf.  The second one went in sprayed dripping wet at a slightly lower temp with steam and no slash. But it was not to be outdone or contained and ripped itself open busting its gut to impress me.  If it was darker, it would look to me like a giant popped chestnut.


Underproofed?   I will cut them tomorrow to see what's going on with the crumb...


Elagins's picture
Elagins

I find that explosive spring and cracking are also a problem with my 100% ryes, but nothing like yours. The polysaccharide chains in rye, as far as I can tell, simply don't have the elasticity to hold and break the way this one did, so clearly, that 30% shot of wheat carried enough gluten to provide that nice break (which suggests to me that a> you're probably right about the oven temp, and/or b> another 30-60 minutes of proof might be in order).

FYI, I don't have any pics of my black breads just yet, but, trust me, they come out of the oven looking like dry riverbeds. Has anyone here solved that problem?

Beautiful loaves, nonetheless.

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I have a hard time thinking the above loaves were under-proofed as they warmed up 5-6 hours before baking.  They passed my poke test.  Maybe a higher hydration is needed.  Can't help but think the gelled wheat cereal in the exploded loaves is what gave them their stretch. 


The loaves I did before these two were not retarded and did not have scalded yeast but high gluten wheat flour instead of bread flour.   This one still did a tearing number but not as much.  Hydration being about the same.



When I use a colander, I get more of this, the dry surface...  possibly creating too much tension on the crust.   When I just let it rise in a form, which I tend to cover with thin plastic, it is smoother.  The pattern is from the microfiber cloth used.  Snowflakes!  Maybe I should shorten the time in the colander/banneton.


Did you cover your black breads while baking?


Mini

Elagins's picture
Elagins

cover them, but use very high hydration, >110% and lots and lots of steam for the first 10-15 minutes. it's a tricky exercise, and one that i'm sure my ever-hungry peasant ancestors would find absurd, but that's the luxury of having enough to eat and baking for pleasure!

and lovely crumb. that 30% gluten sure does make a difference.

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I guess it looks better cut.  This is the second loaf from above, my hubby sneaked off with the first one.  This one has some nasty looking bubbles on the surface caused by the retardation and they are not at all appetizing.   Discovered the walnut loaf missing 30 min after he left when I was ready to cut it open and photograph for you all.  I planned on also freezing these as they are the last loaves before I pack up to fly this weekend.  I just might be baking another loaf....



I had pages put in my passport and wandered around the royal palace grounds in Seoul until it was ready.   Got lots of exercise.



Mini

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Mini,
what a fantastic bread!

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

The Borodinsky is fantastic.  I have made it a number of times and always find it to be a great bread.  It is strong and wonderful.

Jeff

Elagins's picture
Elagins

i don't know it. do you have a recipe?

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

I do have a recipe and I will post it soon.

Jeff

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Here is the recipe that I use for this bread.

----------------------------------------------

Makes one 2 lb. loaf

Mash:

2.65 oz  rye flour
8.5 oz   water @ 200 F
.9 oz    rye malt
A pinch freshly ground coriander
Cover bowl and put in 150 F oven for 2 hours, then let cool 3 hours

Working Starter:

2T + 1t  rye storage starter
1 oz     rye flour
3T       water
Mix and ferment 3-4 hours @ 80 F

Sponge: 

Add to the
Working Starter and Cooled Mash
6.15 oz rye flour
knead 10 minutes in bowl with wet hands

ferment:  3 1/2 – 4 hours @ 84 F

Dough:  Add to the sponge:
3.5 oz rye flour and
2.65 oz wheat bread flour

2t salt and
2T sugar in 1.75 oz water

1T + 1t black molasses
a pinch ground coriander

Knead 10-15 minutes (wet hands)
Rise 60-90 minutes in bowl @ 84 F

For the last rise put the dough in a bread pan, sprinkle with coriander and rise for about 50 minutes @ 90 F (In a humid environment)

Preheat oven to 475 F
Reduce immediately to 425 F
Bake to 205 F internal temp, about 50 minutes

Immediately water top or smear with 3% potato starch solution

---------------------------------------------- 

I have always used home milled whole grain flour and this flour requires a bit more liquid than called for in the recipe.  I sprout rye, mill it,  and then use it for the malt called for in the recipe.

Like other rye breads I find that completely cooling this bread before slicing is essential.  I spray the top of the loaf with a fine mist of water when it leaves the oven.  Failure to do this will result in a hard top crust that will only soften when the loaf is about two days old. The final loaf is fairly dense and LOADED with flavor.  This bread will appeal to you if you like dark full flavored whole grain bread but not if your taste leans towards the white flour experience. 

I love this bread, let me know what you think if you make it.

Jeff

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Thank you so much, Jeff, and Eric, thank you too for the centerfold. I'll be trying it out soon! In the meantime, I baked another 100% rye yesterday, which I'll upload in a separate post.

Stan

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I have been working on this bread for 4 Months and the fact I haven't posted it yet is a testament to my respect for the process. The recipe I use is similar to Jeff's above and the bread is loaded with flavor regardless of how it looks. Here is a web site if you are interested in seeing some of the history behind it. It's a very popular loaf in Moscow.

This is what it's supposed to look like. I have been close to this nice a few times (mostly by mistake). This is a rye worth learning. I had thought I would learn to make this bread and give a few loaves to the Russian social community here in Milwaukee for the holiday's. I'm still working on the schedule but it needs a little work yet.

Eric 

BorodinskiBorodinski by Mariana

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Last time, I posted a 70% hydration rye, which was very dense, with a tight crumb. Last night, I baked a couple of loaves of 80% hydration, using the same three-build sour and the same proportions: 10-20-30% medium rye flour and 15-35-50% water, with the remaining 40% of the flour added, along with the salt, just prior to final ferment.You can see that the crumb is much softer and much more open.

I made a couple of significant changes, however: first, I didn't punch down the dough after ferment, but tried to keep as much of the structure as possible; second, I baked it for 10 minutes at 475 (lots of steam) to get maximum spring, and then 2 hours at 325 to get a darker color. I cut the bread this morning, less than 12 hours after it came out of the oven, and was surprised to find how not gummy it was.

However, the higher temperature and relatively thinner loaf produced a very hard, thick crust that didn't soften much, despite generous brushing with water right after the loaves came out of the oven. I docked the loaves to avoid cracking, but didn't do very well on this one -- obviously because of the shock of the dough hitting the hot stone, despite parchment and cornmeal in between. Not sure how I'm gonna solve that one: anyone have any suggestions?

Nonetheless, I'm a lot happier with this loaf than I was with the 70%; I think I'm gonna try 95% next.

I love rye!!! Here's the result:

100% Rye 80% Hydration100% Rye 80% Hydration

alexandrasakurets's picture
alexandrasakurets

Elangis, this bread looks EXACTLY like the kind I used to eat as a little girl in the Ukraine.  For the past 22 years I have not been able to find the same kind of bread in the US (Minnesota).  I have sooo missed eating this kind of bread!!!  I have never baked bread, but am a good cook and can follow directions.  Would you be so kind as to share the recepie with very detailed explanations.  I plan on joining the St Paul Bread Club, members of which directed me to this web site.  My direct email is alexandrasakurets@yahoo.com  With deepest gratitude,


                                                 Alexandra

jasong's picture
jasong

Very glad I found this thread. I currently have a 100% sourdough rye in the oven. I used a very active starter, and kneaded the dough well, and was rewarded with a dough that actually rose appreciably! (My first effort did not rise all that much, although it was quite tasty). Maybe on my next try at rye I will be brave enough to try the 3-step process. This current effort was only a one-step process.


I have taken some cues from this thread regarding methods. For now, I did about 10 minutes at 400 with as much steam as I could reasonably generate. I then turned it down to 325. I will take it out at around the 2 hour total mark. This keeps it in line with the recipes from which it was bastardized.


I look forward to future contributions to this thread!

jasong's picture
jasong

Smells great just out of the oven. Slight cracking on the top from drying and expansion during the rise. Spritzed the top just after taking out. Will slice tomorrow and advise how it is. Don't know if I can wait two whole days :)


Thanks again everyone!

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi,


I love rye bread and I've been trying various recipes.


So far the recipes that gave me the best results is this:


http://www.siteground217.com/~westonap/food-features/494-sourdough-rye-bread


but made with only rye, with parts of the grains grossly milled by me and cooked with the pan enveloped in aluminum foil.


 


Yet my goal is to get a bread as close as possible to this one:


http://www.germandeli.com/pemclasryebr.html


a bread that I don't know how to classify: surely it's not pumpernickel. Can you help me? Is there a recipe?


 


I also have a couple of doubts:


-when sprouting rye, when do I have to stop? How long should the roots be?


-scalding... after much reading I still can't totally understand how it works (and indeed it _does_ work). I mean, if hot water is used to block amylase activity, wher does the sweet flavour come from? After all, sugars come out as an effect of amylase, right? Also, what effect does the gelatinized starch has on the bread?


-raising... my leaven (made with medium rye, it seems to be a mixture of wholemeal and white rye flours) is very active and triples when fed at ~100% hydratation, yet when I do loafs that I can knead by hand (~70% hydratation) they don't rise, thus I have to increase the water amount to at least 80%. Is it normal? Do I have to use all wholemeal flour to increase sourness?


 


Thanks a lot and congratulations for those marvellous breads.

sphealey's picture
sphealey

You might want to read Peter Reinhart's recipe for volkornbrot in his _Whole Grain Breads_, including the discussion of malting therein.  Reinhart's receipe tends to get a lot of abuse when discussed here, but I think it tastes good and is very similar to the packaged German breads I get at the import store (like the one in your link).   (you might want to reduce the molassas and cocoa powder - at the class I took with Reinhart even he thought the molassas flavor was too strong, although it does recede after 36 hours).


sPh

Beabarba's picture
Beabarba

Hallo,


i'm from Germany and often baking with rye. I know the pema bread well, you can buy it in every supermarket here. I think it isn't possible to copy such a bread at home. It's made only from rhye, sourdough, salt and water, nothing else, no molasses or cocoa (brrrrr). The dark colour and sweetness is coming from a very long baking time with a lid and a special oven.


You can try the recipe from Jeffrey Hamelman in his book "Bread" named Vollkornbrot. It comes near to the pema bread.


Greetings from Bavaria Beate

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi,


rye (flour and grossly ground), water and rye sourdough are the only ingredients I regularly use; lately I've been removing even salt and of course I never used cocoa, coffee, beet, molasses, honey, malt or sweeteners/colorants. I never used yeast, either.


Can you confirm that pumpernickel is a totally different beast? How would you describe the difference in flavour and consistence?


Thanks for the replies.

Beabarba's picture
Beabarba

Hi,


pumpernickel (the stuff you can buy in Germany, not like some recipes you can find in the net) is not sooo different from the pema roggenvollkornbrot (by the way: pema sells also pumpernickel). Pumpernickel is darker and full of sweetness because it is baken with  a low temperature  about 24 hours. If you have somebody who can translate from german, read this recipe:


http://www.der-sauerteig.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4478&highlight=pumpernickel


I think its authentic (but I didn't try so far, I prefer buying pumpernickel)


Beate

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Thanks, I'll ask a friend to translate it.


 


BTW, a fancy idea has been tormenting me for several days: reading the percentages of rye in the ingredients list (~53% most of the time) and considering that during baking  the dough generally loses 10% of its water, a bread like that starts with approximately equal amounts of  rye and water: 53 %rye, 2%salt and 55% water (that amounts to 110% that falls to ~100% after baking); also, since that bread is jelly just like the hot soaker, I wonder what could come out of a bread made with 80% of soaker, like this:


-prepare equal amounts of rye flour/meal and boiling water plus salt, let to do its business for 12 hours as usual


-at the same time prepare a small amount (20% of the above rye flour, as I read in a patent) of rye sourdough with 100% hydratation, let to ferment for 12 hours, too


-mix the two after the 12 hours and let rise


-cook at 140°C for 2 hours as an industrial producer told me to do


 


Does this method have any chance of creating a good bread resembling the one I'm seeking?

Beabarba's picture
Beabarba

Hi,


I just found this.


http://theinversecook.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/schrotbrot/


this could be a good recipe for you (without the seeds).


I think it is necessary to use some cracked rye or whole rye flour in the dough, not just mix starter and soaker. This would be too sticky and wet.


Beate

Davo's picture
Davo

You could also try this.


The recipe doesn't give a prove time but I tried about 2.5-3 hrs and it worked pretty well...


http://sourdough.com/forum/topic/930

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

I'd like to have the best of both worlds: the sweetness and blackness of a long slow cooking and the dryness of a quick and very high temperature cooking.
With the first method the crumb is always a bit too moist for my taste.
So far I could get only get each of the two features separately, but how to get both at the same time?
Maybe cooking at 140C for a couple of hours and then raising the temperature to 210C for an hour or so?
I'm not sure it would work, I'd like to have opinions.
Thanks.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I especially like the one you didn't slash. Kind of like the beautiful seam side up loaves hansjoakim creates.  It is a little surprising that you have such a spring in a 70%rye loaf.


Stan: I'd like to see some of your dark rye if you have a picture available. I read where you have a black rye that is full flavor. Do you have those rye's available in the store? I'm determined to make a good dark, full flavor rye that doesn't have a crust like a hard scape and also pumpernickel.


Eric

Elagins's picture
Elagins

i really haven't been happy with the results, but I think I'm gonna try again this weekend and will take photos for sure

janra's picture
janra

I found this via a google search as I've been looking for a recipe for a 100% rye bread. I know it's a few years old...

I tried an 80% hydration all-rye bread with my sourdough according to the 3-build process Elagins described in one of the comments above. The three mixes where water was also added bubbled and grew nicely, but on the last mix where I added only flour and salt, it doesn't seem to have expanded at all, and it certainly didn't double in size. I gave it three hours; this doubling step was the only one that didn't have a time attached to it in the description. The dough was very stiff and while getting it out of the bowl, it fell apart into a few pieces which I pressed gently together while shaping the loaf. I marked the parchment paper for its size - it not only didn't grow noticeably in proofing, it barely spread out either! This is not at all how the 80% hydration loaf was described above. It didn't grow with oven spring either when I put it into the 450F oven.

I weighed my ingredients and it was 80% water/100% flour (400g and 500g respectively) plus 2% salt. From the photos, it spread even less than the 70% hydration loaf that started this thread. Which, on looking at it again, was made with "medium rye flour"; my local supermarket only carries dark rye flour. Was it too dry? I have heard that whole wheat is thirstier than white wheat flour, but I don't know to what degree that would apply to rye.

I just pulled it out of the oven and it smells good. We'll see what the taste and crumb are like in a couple of days.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

after this thread.  Unless you can beef up a rye starter,  I think a 100% rye will give you problems with rising.    

If using Rogers dark rye, yes it is very absorbent and I find myself adding more water to the recipe.  Aim for 85% hydration.   And Rogers suggests using some lemon juice in the liquids as well.

janra's picture
janra

I did finally get it to rise in the proofing stage at 100% hydration. That was a tasty loaf and baked nicely on the stone.

I recently tried 110% hydration just for fun and it was a sloppy mess (which I put in a loaf pan because it would have made a pancake on the stone) but it had some nice oven spring and even a little bit of cracking on the top side. (Next time I try 110% I'll try slashing the top -- I was afraid I'd deflate it.) I took the bread out of the loaf pan and put it directly on the stone after 2hrs at 250 (when the oven had almost cooled to 250) to finish baking for the last hour.

I must have exceptionally dry or thirsty flour.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'm always a little scared to slash the top.  Try just poking or docking with a wet wooden toothpick to get any large bubbles.  

Rye typically tears itself and scoring/slashing might be begging for a frisbee.   Ryes have memories often slashed before the final rise, the crusts will open during baking, even if scores appear to have risen shut or smoothed over with wet fingers.  Same if one sticks together chunks of dough so you can control the cracking if you want to.  

My loaves done back up this thread in 2009 were not pure rye and baked in a frying pan (handle removed) or they would have gone flat.  My oven was small and could not fit a frisbee without being a disaster for the oven.  Pretty sure of that.  

A 100% rye loaf just barely holds itself together.  I love the way they crackle rip when baking.  Don't let a pure rye loaf double it's size in the final rise.  It just can't do it.  (all comments welcome who have experienced differently)

I will try a 110 % hydration pure rye and we can compare notes.  What flour are you using?

Mini

janra's picture
janra

I'm using Rogers Dark Rye.

I'm not sure if it exactly doubled in the last rise (where the instructions way at the top of the thread say to double it) but the 110% hydration version came a lot closer to doubling than the 100% hydration version did. (For my flour, for my environment. As I mentioned in my first post, my 80% was way drier and rose less than the original recipe's 70%.)

The only modification to the original recipe I made other than more water was to add some of that extra water in the last stage, where the instructions say to add only flour and salt.

Maybe I'll try slashing before the final rise to give it a good tear line when it hits the oven.

(Rye bread seems so fussy to bake in modern times. I bet when the various recipes were developed they were very practical for that situation, but I don't eat enough bread to bake a loaf every day -- so I can't split the dough and cook half and feed half for tomorrow's bread, which I assume was part of the process.)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Which recipe?    I still have 2 rye loaves in the freezer.  Will be a little while before I'm baking.  I hate fussy recipes....

janra's picture
janra

The recipe from above (yeah, there are a couple aren't there?) that I originally copied down was:

total = 70-80% water, 2% salt

1st: 10% of total rye flour; 15% of total water, salt -- 8-10 hours

2nd: 20% of total flour; 35% of total water -- 10-12 hours or overnight

3rd: 30% of total flour; 50% of total water -- 3-4 hours

4th: 40% of total flour; salt -- double, shape, proof on parchment ~1h,

slash top, peel into oven on a baking stone, cook 10min at 450F with steam then 250F for 2-3 hours.

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The recipe that I most recently used was: (all other instructions the same, only percentages differ)

total = 110% water, 2% salt

1st: 10% of flour, 10% of water, starter, 25% of salt

2nd: 20% of flour, 30% of water

3rd: 30% of flour, 40% of water

4th: 40% of flour, 20% of water, 75% of salt.

I allowed 4 hours for doubling and it may have come close to actually doubling. It certainly grew a lot.

I think it was just shy of an hour (maybe 45 minutes) for the final proof in the loaf pan. It grew a bit there, though nothing dramatic. The oven spring was visible; the dough climbed maybe a half inch up the side of the loaf pan.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

after the last addition of flour.  

Now to try something different, lets divide that into 2 hrs bulk and 2.5 hrs final proof and go with that.  I think shaping was done too far into the bulk rise.  

That seems to be also consistent with my faster rising times with Rogers Rye flour.  Also lets squeeze half a lemon into the water before weighing it.  That sour kick ought to help us out. (as suggested by Rogers)

after reading this, you may see why I suggest changing the rise times.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23226/mini039s-favorite-rye-mostly-happy-has-questions

janra's picture
janra

Of course, rise time depends on temperature, too :)

I learned that between summer and winter, my rise time can double. (I have no air conditioning, so my place gets warm = fast rising in the summer, and in the winter I sometimes rise in the oven with the light on for the first hour.)

My understanding was all that salt in the very first step inhibited the yeast so the acid-producing bacteria could go to town and get a good sour going that way.

Next time, I'll try moving the dough to the bread pan earlier in the final rise/proof time. I'd also like to figure out how early I can get the bread out of the pan so the sides aren't noticeably paler than the top, without the bread collapsing *and* without cooling off the oven too fast due to opening the door!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to inhibit yeast growth.   Plan on checking the salt % later.  

Sides being paler than the top might have more to do with the location of the loaf in the oven or the reflective qualities of the pan.  I head for the darker, duller pans for rye.    Bread collapsing can be over-proofed or left in the pan too long after leaving the oven.  Covering the top with foil can slow down top browning while the sides brown.  

My first reaction is to get the loaf lower in the oven with the next bake, get the heat source under the loaf.  Perhaps the stone is too high and needs lowering.   

An oven that cools down too much with door opening: turn up the heat before opening the door, turning it back when the temperature evens out.  If the problem is the fan blowing out the heat, turn off the oven and wait until the fan stops turning before opening the door.  Usually takes about half a minute.  :)