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Pain a l'Anciennes/Gosselin

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allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

Pain a l'Anciennes/Gosselin

Bakers of America

 I'm trying to find the original (2003) 'message' that Peter Reinhart speaks of in his book : Bread Bakers Assistant - concerning Philippe Gosselin's account of how he makes the now famous Pain a l'Anciennes.  The 'message' was sent by Peter to an internet mailing list detailing Gosselin's description of how he prepares the l'Anciennes. I'm having trouble finding this 'message' on the net : anyone point me in the right direction?

Regards from the UK.

 Allan  

Floydm's picture
Floydm

I think this is it.

Scroll down and find "bread-bakers.v103.n006.9".

allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

Thanks for your help on this one. 

 

Allan  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Allan.

I made baguettes more or less according to Gosselin's method as he related it to Reinhart. Here is the link to my effort:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8524/philippe-gosselin039s-pain-à-l039ancienne-according-peter-reinhart-interpretted-dmsnyder-m

If you make this formula, please do share your results with us on TFL.

Thanks.


David

Soundman's picture
Soundman

Another like-minded baker. I have been chattering about that recipe for around 5 months or so.

Oh yeah, Hi allanwiggins, and if you're new to TFL, welcome aboard. I second dmsnyder: let us know, if you bake this, how it turns out. And don't forget the pictures. Make sure you read the FAQ about uploading pix, here:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2960/posting-photos-faq

Soundman (David)

allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

New to this game so bear with me.

Overnight ferment : 200g T550 flour - 120g of water (60%). (Water at 40F).

Morning mix : Add 2g of dried yeast to 10g of room temp' water and liquify - incorporate into the overnight dough. Add 3.5g of sea salt and mix in. (Being quite cool the manual-mix takes a little time and energy - 6 - 10 mins or so). Leave for 10  mins and then 10 sec's (yes) of folding the dough, which is now a little more responsive. Repeat twice more at 10 min intervals : do it now as you won't be doing it later. Cover with cling film and leave at room temp' until doubled in size.

Set out a peel. Place baking parchment on the peel and sprinkle with plenty of semolina (which seems better at preventing burning of the bottom than flour). Dust a wooden board with flour and turn out the dough. No folding or rolling : just gently mould and pull the dough out to about 12 inches : taking up some of the flour on the board as you go : but only enough to keep from sticking - 'take-up' of the flour being only about a tablespoon - if that.

The dough at this stage is malleable and stretchy - any folding results in splits in the bake. The dough just seems to be happy with being pulled - nothing else. Place on the prepared parchment paper. Dust with flour and snip with scissors diagonally five or six times. (A lame doesn't really work - it just drags the dough).

Oven at 250C/480F to start. Large pan on the floor waiting for a cup of hot water. Stone already in there and waiting. Atomizer at the ready filled with hot (ish) water.

With peel at the ready - open the door and place dough in oven - together with the baking parchment. Shut door. Timer to 8 min's and reset temp' to 230C/450F. Pour the cup of hot water into the large pan on the bottom of the oven. (Whoosh - hold your head back and take care). Atomize the interior of the oven three or four times during the first 8 min's. Turn the dough 180 degrees half way through. Spraying both ends seems a good idea.

After 8 min's set oven to 200C/390F and remove hot water pan. Set timer for 15 min's. After 15 min's reset oven to 180C/355F and timer for a further 18 min's.

Turn the loaf every so often. Total time 41 min's. Anything less and dough at the center is still damp. It may seem a little fussy with three changes in temp' but my early efforts resulted in burnt bottoms. I'm working on finding a single temp' throughout. Early days.

The scissor snipping generates lovely eruptions : like mini rocky peaks. The baguette is irregular in shape due to being un-rolled, not really like a rounded torpedo at all.  Plenty of those lovely air-pockets in the crumb. T550 flour is very nearly unobtainable in the UK : I had to travel about 150 miles to the mill - fortunately on my way to my kids in London. I presume this is the flour that Philippe Gosselin would normally use so it seemed worth the effort to get it - I haven't tried this formula with strong bread flour.

This bread doesn't really need butter - on its own is just lovely. Many a French child sent to get the daily baguette simply came home with two thirds missing!!! Today, with onion soup it was the perfect accompaniment. 

Forgive any plagiarism.  

 

  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, allen.

I take it you did not divide the dough but baked one large loaf. I would imagine it coming out rather like a ciabatta.

Did you happen to take photos to show us?

I've been playing with this and similar formulas for several months now. The addition of about 10% rye or a mixture of rye and whole wheat adds a complexity of flavor (as well as flavour), as does about 20% active sourdough culture. The result is not exactly classic baguette in taste, but very good.


David

allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

David

Sorry - no pictures (non-digital) but I'll shoot analogue and then scan, but that'll be a while.

I bake for me only - so a baguette is perfect for one day. A 200g loaf being just the right size.

Today's baguette was 11 inches long x 3 inches wide x 2 inches tall - but the wide and tall measurements only approximate due to the irregular shape to begin with.  

I would describe this loaf as rustic in appearance, not smooth or disciplined in shape but the long ferment gives it a sweetness and a delightful smell.

(Oh, "Soundman" - David : thanks for the link - I need to look into getting photo's up).

Regards to all 

 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

It sounds good.

My own batch of Gosselin's pain à l'ancienne is cooling. I may post a photo or two, and you can offer a comparison, if you wish to.

Happy baking!


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Gosselin Baguettes 
Gosselin Baguettes 
Gosselin Baguettes crumb 
Gosselin Baguettes crumb  

I made these baguettes with Giusto's Baker's Choice Flour.   

David

Soundman's picture
Soundman

Gorgeous (as usual), David!

Soundman (David)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder


David

allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

David

Your baguette pictures look very much like mine.....

As in : your pictures look very like what I pulled out of my oven yesterday. 

Allan  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Allan.

Yes. Your verbal description seemed much like the results I get from Gosselin's formula.

I recommend making pains rustiques from this dough. Rather than doing any shaping or pre-shaping at all, just cut the dough into petits pains - say 3 x 6 inch pieces - and bake. These have an even more open crumb and make wonderful sandwich rolls.


David

allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

David 

I'm curious : the Ancienne dough is very wet and took considerable time to bake - my questions are how long was your bake time, what was the weight of the dough and what was the oven temperature? For such a small baguette mine took a long time to bake.

Allan  

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Allen.

For demi-baguettes, the bake time is about 20 minutes with 5 minutes additional time in the oven with the heat turned off and the door cracked open to dry/crisp the crust.

I pre-heat the oven to 500F and turn it down to 460F after loading and steaming.

I didn't scale the loaves. I'd guess they were about 225 gms each.

How long did yours take and at what temperature?


David

allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

David

Mine weighed in at about 330gms and anything less than 40 min's left them damp in the middle. Since my huge message above I've increased the time to 45 min's for the same weight : hence my curiosity. It seemed a long bake time - but the proof of the pudding....as they say.

My temp times were 8 min's at 500 and 400 for remainder : a higher temp than 400 would of course speed things up.

I'm new to this so - practice makes.......Thank you.

Allan 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Allan.

From my reading, the traditional baking temperature for baguettes is either 460F or 480F, but that is really based on 1) the traditional size which I believe is 350 gms and 2) the traditional golden-brown crust color when the interior is fully-baked and 3) a bake time of 24-27 minutes.

Since you say you are "new to this," I'll offer a few more thoughts:

Time and temperature are what you can control, once the loaf is in the oven. What you want for results is that the crust be "just right" (to your taste) when the crumb is fully baked.

A higher temperature will result in a faster baking time, but also in a darker crust. A longer bake will result in a darker crust also, but bake time seems to have less effect on crust coloring at lower temperatures.

Larger loaves, particularly thicker ones, will take longer to bake. So, if you want to keep the crust color constant, you bake larger loaves at lower temperatures.

So, choosing your time and temperature will depend on the size of the loaf and how dark you want the crust. It's a balancing act.

Now, the initial temperature of 500F has 2 purposes: 1) to increase oven spring and 2) because opening the oven to load the bread drops the temperature by 25F or so.

Actually baking at 500F or higher is good for flat breads and pizza, but too high even for baguettes, unless you want a really, really dark crust. On the other hand, 400F is too cool for baguettes but might be good for a miche (1.5 Kg or more) or a "normal-sized" loaf that is very wet (for example a Jewish Corn Bread) that you would be baking for an hour or more.

So, for baguettes, boules and bâtards, I generally pre-heat the oven to 480F or 500F but turn it down by 20-40F once the loaves are loaded. This gives me a pretty well-caramelized, dark crust when the internal temperature hits 205F. If I wanted a lighter-colored crust, I would bake at a lower temperature for longer.

The above has considerable redundancy, but I hope it helps you think about the variables of time and temperature as tools for controlling your baking results.


David

allanwiggins's picture
allanwiggins

David

Thanks for the advice - very helpful.

Today's baguettes were a delight.

 

Allan