The Fresh Loaf

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Whole Wheat Bread of P.Reinhart, his BBA bk. pg. 271.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Whole Wheat Bread of P.Reinhart, his BBA bk. pg. 271.

I have made this recipe about 8 times and so am pretty familiar with it.  But I have 3 major questions:

  • Is there any technique that I can use to get more height on the loaf.  Every loaf is about 1/2 inch above the pan and looks more brick like than loaf like.  Is there anything to give it more height?  I do add 2 tsps. of wheat gluten but that does not do it.  And throwing more yeast in will make for lots of holes which I do not like.
  • Also, I am baking it for 45 mins.  Does anyone out there bake for longer?  Can whole wheat bread go for 55-60 mins. at 350.
  • I still do not know how to knead this whole wheat bread.  I autolyze appropriately but getting this bread to knead seems impossible????

Many thanks.

Whole Wheat Bread..P. Reinhart, BBA-pg. 271, Note: Knead Only Once. Yield-3 LoavesSoaker

Single

 

Double

Triple

1 Cup

Course whole-wheat flour

2 Cups

3 Cups

¾ Cup

Water, at room temp

1 ½  Cups

2 ¼  Cups

 

Whole-Wheat Poolish of a thick paste consistency. (note: he also does it as biga)

Single

 

Double

Triple

1 ½ Cup

High Protein whole-wheat flour

3 Cups

4 ½  Cups

¼  tsp

Instant Yeast

½  tsp

¾  tsp

¾  Cup

Water, at room temp

1 ½  Cups

2 ¼ Cups

 

Dough

Single

 

Double

Triple

2 Cups

High Protein whole-wheat flour

4 Cups

6 Cups

1 1/3 tsps

Salt

2 2/3 tsps

4 tsps

1 tsp

Instant Yeast

2 tsps

3 tsps

2 Ts

Honey

4 Ts

6 tps

1 T

Vegetable oil-optional

2 Ts

3 T (I do 2 T)

1 Large

Egg, slightly beaten (optional)

2

3 eggs

2 Ts

Sesame seeds, poppy seeds, (garnish)

2 Ts

6  T

*note: i have crossed out what I do not use.

Soundman's picture
Soundman

CountryBoy, as someone who also likes a good WW bread, I can say I have looked at this recipe in BBA and always wondered how it would get the kind of rise I like. I'm sure other bakers will have good suggestions for you, but I like a challenge myself, so I am thinking about your questions.

Let's start with question 2, which is easier to get a handle on. Forty-five minutes in your oven at 350 and the same time and temp in my oven will probably produce different results. Since oven temperatures are hard to depend on (even within a single oven there are hot and cold spots), I use an instant-read thermometer to tell me when the bread is done. Others can judge by look and hollow-sound, but those are misleading to me.

Now let me ask you a question: what are the crust and crumb like after baking for 45 minutes? You're using honey in this recipe, so you should get a nice rich golden-brown color on your crust, and if you don't, the bread can stand more baking time. If the crumb isn't nicely set, the bread can stand more baking time. (Or try an instant-read.)

On to your question 3: what about the kneading process is difficult? And how are you kneading, in a mixer, or by hand?

Now to question 1, which is a tough one: this dough is 100% Whole Wheat, and some of it is coarse. All the bran and germ don't contribute to gluten development. The recipe also uses some oil, which is a "shortener" meaning it shortens, and thus impedes, the development of gluten. This is why I said I didn't expect it to rise too high.

One of the ways to get the bread to rise better will probably go against your wish to make it 100% whole grain, and that is to exchange some WW flour for bread flour. That would improve gluten development. Also, I assume you are using red whole wheat flour. Strange as it seems, I find that white whole wheat forms stronger gluten than red whole wheat, so you might try a mixture of white and red on the whole wheat. The food scientists out there may be able to explain that, though I can't.

(Now here's something I can't really vouch for, but I have seen and wondered about. King Arthur Flour touts the use of "Baker's Dry Milk" for getting a better rise. This is a high-heat treated dry milk, which kills certain enzymes in milk that weaken gluten. Why it works, someone else may be able to explain. King Arthur shows A and B pictures of 2 loaves, 1 with and 1 without their Baker's Dry Milk, and the size difference is striking.)

If a higher rise were my goal, in addition to using some bread flour and a mix of red and white whole wheat, I would experiment with replacing the oil and egg with an equal weight of water, to see what the rising capabilities are in a leaner version of the bread. If the flavor loss without the egg was a big negative, I'd add it back in. Same with the oil. You might find you get a better rise and the flavor isn't hurt by their omission however.

I'll bet you don't really want to change the recipe much, so I await the comments of others who may have suggestions for keeping the recipe and getting a better rise.

Soundman (David)

apprentice's picture
apprentice

David, the high-heat dry milk issue came up in the sticky dough discussion yesterday and today. The explanation's there, at least the part I know. Here's the thread:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8701/sticky-doughs#comment-44837

Wish I could add more to this discussion, but my brain is fried. Too much fresh-loafing around these last few days. :)

Carol

Soundman's picture
Soundman

Thanks, for the link, Carol. This is a good system, keeping everybody abreast of all the information flying around TFL!

Your explanation was good and confirmed what I've been ferreting out of the meager information about high heat DMS on the net. But what would account for those King Arthur A - B pictures in their flyer/brochure?

I agree, you can use up all the time in the day on TFL. Watch out, it's addictive!

Soundman (David)

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Hadn't seen those pictures on the King Arthur website until now when you got me curious. It would be easier to say with more certainty what might be going on, if they provided the ingredient list in the product description. It appears to be on the bag. But I'll hazard a guess on the difference between the two loaves in that persuasive, but possibly misleading photo.

Milk provides several different benefits in making bread, both in the dough stage and the finished product. Greater volume because of improved capacity to retain gas is one of them. If skim milk or skim milk powder is used, many of those benefits will not be so evident. They've used 1% milk for the low-volume loaf in the picture. And I'd bet the farm their baker's special dry milk is manufactured using whole milk.

Apples and oranges?

p.s. Yep, addictive!

Soundman's picture
Soundman

Carol,

That is so interesting! "Improved capacity to retain gas" may not be so good for humans, but for bread dough, yes yes yes!

Even if the pictures are apples and oranges, if they used whole milk without it's being high-heat scalded, it shouldn't help the rise, right?

Speaking of high rises, I notice the price is through the roof for this product. Is there another supplier I wonder at an affordable price?

Soundman (David)

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Liquid milk, whether whole or skim wouldn't help the rise, if you neglected to heat it to simmering (180F). In fact, it would actively inhibit the rise! I wasn't going to mention that King Arthur  might have omitted that step when making their low volume loaf for the picture, but the thought did occur. :) That would have been a double handicap, making their (yes, very expensive) product look even better. Buyer beware, I suppose, but I don't like to be too cynical.

Bottom line, King Arthur's special baker's dry milk appears to be nothing more than high-heat DMS. Sorry, don't know about other sources. Maybe check with your local health food store?

Carol

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Without enzymes, digestion wouldn't occur.

 

Milk, even pasteurized milk, has enzymes in it that inhibits dough rise/yeast activity.  Pasteurization is a very short process these days, and relatively gentle.

 

Similarly, commercial powdered milks made for home use still have the enzymes.

 

You can dentature the enzymes by scalding the milk.  In the case of powdered milk, mix it up and then scald it.  This reduces the ease brought about by dry milk.

 

KA's product has already denatured the enzymes.  So, you can use it straight from the container.

 

Me?  I just use milk and let the bread rise where it may.  I'm not so much a "gotta be a light and fluffy loaf" kinda guy.  I think most "fully risen" loaves are insipid and bland.  But that's my taste.  You should make the bread you want to eat.

 

Mike

 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

David, thanks so much for your comprehensive response to my question.  I shall try to respond in kind... 

(Please note that my modified recipe for this bread is included in my original thread)

 1-I have used an instant-read thermometer and can varify the temps for my oven.  I am just curious how well whole wheat would stand up to more time and heat.  I am reluctant to push it. Yes, I do get the hollow sound when I take them out.

2-Question:What are the crust and crumb like after baking for 45 minutes? You're using honey in this recipe, so you should get a nice rich golden-brown color on your crust, and if you don't, the bread can stand more baking time. If the crumb isn't nicely set, the bread can stand more baking time. (Or try an instant-read.)

Answer: The crumb and crust seem pretty good to me and pretty well set. However, I did not use honey this time around, since I am trying to cut back on calories.  Is it necessary?  Does the yeast require it?

3- I am kneading by hand and find that it breaks up when I try to knead it even once and then again when I go to shaping it to put in the pans.  And yes I autolyze.  I did add a couple of tsps of gluten in hopes that might help and I do believe it helped with the crumb.

4-Now to question 1, which is a tough one: how high it rises.

Answer: David, I did not use oil this time around since I thought it would make the crumb too soft as it has in the past.  The results this time around seemed to verify this.

I am not using the white WW but rather the regular King Arthur WW that is sold in my grocery store.  I guess that is the red. But I will try incorporating KA Bread flour and see if it helps with the kneading and the rising.

I also don't use milk for fear it will tenderize the crumb too much and really weaken it as has been the case in the past. So yes I use only water.

Of course implicit in our discussion is whether or not this WW recipe should rise well above the lip of the pan.  My guess is yes, but I do not know.

Thanks so much for you feed back on this.  It would seem that others are very reluctant to touch it for whatever reason.

CountryBoy

Soundman's picture
Soundman

CountryBoy, (I'll respond to your next post after this one. I haven't followed your link yet down there.)

I do love a challenge!

1) I use my instant-read to get the temperature of the bread, and not the oven. Since I can't trust my eyes, ears and nose to tell me when my bread is finished, I have come to trust the internal temperature of the crumb as the best guide for doneness. For most of the breads I bake, somewhere between 205 dF and 210 dF works like a charm. I let them cool for at least 5 hours before I cut, which allows the flavor to develop a little more (especially with sourdough!) and provides a well-set crumb. Without the instant-read I don't get as good a result. More to the point I do the same thing for whole wheat bread, though I don't bake any 100% WW loaves. (My wife prefers the partial WW and I always do as she says. ;-) )

2) About honey: unlike table sugar which is a disaccharide, honey includes both fructose and glucose, which are food to yeast. But the yeast in your bread do not need the honey. Initially, in honeyless dough, the yeast feed on sugars in the flour created during the milling process, and subsequently due to the action of the enzyme amylase as it converts starch into fermentable sugars. Maybe adding honey alters this process some, I'm not sure. But without honey there is enough sugar from the flour for the yeast to do their job.

Personal aside: I started out baking with a bread machine. The recipes used in bread machines make "bread-machine bread", but not "bread". They include a lot of "enriching" ingredients, like honey, because they don't really develop dough, and thus bread, in a way that pulls the flavor and the sweetness from the wheat. Hence the need for ingredients like honey. When I stopped using the bread machine it took me a while to realize I didn't need, or want, the enrichments. As my bread got leaner, it tasted better, much better.

For the sake of the crust color, I sometimes use a small amount of diastatic malt powder, which helps give a deeper, richer crust color. (Honey will do this too.) But mills sometimes add malt to their flour, and if so, I don't add the diastatic malt powder, because it's redundant.

3) Questions again: what do you think the hydration level of this dough is? (I use a scale, and it's hard to do the conversions from cups to ounces in my head.) If the dough were high hydration, I can't see how it would be difficult to keep it holding together. So maybe the hydration is low? Is it possible that there's too much coarse WW and that prevents the proper gluten development? I use and love coarse WW, and I like the soaker idea, but maybe it's too much coarse flour? When I use coarse WW I use a small amount, and it imparts a lovely flavor in spite of its proportion. Maybe a mixture of coarse and fine WW in the soaker would help? Not sure. Less coarse soaker balanced off by adding bread flour might make a significant difference as well.

4) Oil is as I say a "shortener". (I use it only in breads that rise easily, for what that's worth.) King Arthur (and others including Bob's Red Mill) have a "White Whole Wheat" flour. The name is confusing at first. It's a lighter-colored strain of wheat, and is gaining in popularity. They are growing lots more of it in Kansas, for example. I'm not sure where you live, but if you're in the Midwest you can buy WWW directly from Kansas suppliers. (If you're interested, I'll send links.) WWW has less flavor, to me, than red WW, but it bakes up very close to bread flour! To compensate for the decreased flavor, I include a small amount of red WW and voila the flavor returns. Try it!

I'll get to your link later, when I have more time.

Good luck!

Soundman (David)

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Hi David,

 Re the question of

If the dough were high hydration, I can't see how it would be difficult to keep it holding together. So maybe the hydration is low?

In this case I am quite sure I have more than enough water.  I operate on the premise of Hamelman or Leader who said that Water is the baker's friend so I always go for the more rather than less on the water side of things.

Re scales: I realize that you and absolutely everyone else use scales here and I do from time to time but I have ended up not doing so for numerous reasons, one being that if the Joy of Cooking can do without then I must need to do wiithout scales as well.  One always have to adjust for ambient humidity and temp. anyway so I have chosen to do with out.

 Oh well, next time around I will try with a couple of cups of KA's Bread flour substitued for the KA WW flour.

 My thanks for you time and guidance on the matter.

Country Boy

Soundman's picture
Soundman

CountryBoy,

I was just trying to figure out the hydration level for myself. If I had had some numbers to add up, I wouldn't have needed to ask and speculate (incorrectly) about the hydration. No matter. You say it's pretty high hydration, so I'm stumped why the dough doesn't cohere better. Just for curiosity, how old is your WW flour? If it's new there's no clue there, either. I wouldn't conjecture about the ratio of pre-fermented flour to the total flour, because I have made plenty of loaves with a high percentage of pre-ferment myself.

Let us know how your followups go, OK?

Good luck!

Soundman (David)

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Just for curiosity, how old is your WW flour?

 David, thank you for asking.  I believe it is about 2 months old.  Would it make that much difference? I realize it does for taste but I did not think so for the rising of the bread.  Would you care to share your experiences with the impact of age on bread?

Thanks.

 

 

Soundman's picture
Soundman

CountryBoy,

The recipe you are using should make a decent dough, from my experience, and so I was racking my brain for things that could cause the dough not to come together. My question about the age of your flour was really only grasping at straws.

Even if your flour was way too old, I'm not sure it would cause the dough to fall apart. More to the point, two months is not old for WW flour, unless it sat around on a store shelf for 10 months before that! (Of course it's the wheat germ, containing fatty oils, that can go rancid.)

Which brings me to a question maybe another TFL baker knows the answer to: can you tell if your WW flour is too old, before you use it to bake? If so, how?

Back to your issue, CountryBoy. I have had doughs fall apart on me. Overmixing has killed a dough, and once, when I just had created my sourdough culture, I decided I could mix sourdough into a dough using the usual amount of commercial yeast, but the acids in the sourdough killed the yeast! The dough was falling apart a little to start and by bulk fermentation it was a wreck! But you are hand-kneading, almost impossible to over-oxidize, and you're not using sourdough.

I come back to my earlier suggestions: remove some, or all, of the enrichments and substitute some bread flour for WW, and see if that improves things.

I really welcome followups from you on how you sort this out!

Soundman (David)

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

 When you say

remove some, or all, of the enrichments and substitute some bread flour for WW, and see if that improves things.

Since I have only added 2 eggs as an enrichment I guess I will also put in some bread flour as you suggest.

How long do you bake your WW for? 

 

Soundman's picture
Soundman

CountryBoy,

How long to bake depends on how much the loaves weigh and what temperature the dough is when it goes in, and what temperature the oven is at, among other things. The WW bread I bake most often is around 40% WW flour, so it doesn't come close to whole grain. But it's as much WW flour as I found I could use and still raise the bread to the level I like. I posted it not that long ago and I'll find the link.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8038/ww-loaves-sales-pitch

(The bread doesn't always get as high as in those pictures.) This bread is relatively lean. It does include some deviations from the straight and narrow lean formula, i.e. flour, water, salt, yeast, but these deviations are very small percentages of the total flour (potato flour to soften the crumb and diastatic malt powder for a golden crust). The dough also uses buttermilk for the preferment, in place of water, which has nutritional benefits, read here for example:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4203/healthy-sourdough 

So, as it is a fairly lean dough, I bake it like a hearth bread: 450 or 460 dF for 10 minutes and then between 20 and 25 minutes at 410 dF. But I don't take the loaves out of the oven until my instant-read thermometer says 205 dF on immediate insertion into the loaf (which means it is probably closer to 210).

Another conjecture: when a loaf expands in the oven, I suspect the oven's heat works more efficiently than with a loaf that rises less. Also, your recipe calls for 350 dF. That's pretty low, and may be so that the outside crust doesn't burn before the inside crumb gets totally set, also suggesting a denser crumb than my partial WW has. In which case hearth baking techniques probably won't work well.

As MiniOven suggested, the eggs also act as a shortener. You might try temporarily removing them from the recipe just to see what a lean version of your recipe bakes up like. Then start adding back in the enrichments you prefer, in amounts that don't negatively impact the rise you were able to get on the lean version of the bread.

As they say, hope that helps!

Soundman (David) 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Many thanks for the ideas.  I guess in the future I will proceed with a very lean recipe and add one change at a time.

Countryboy

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

David, apparently there is another thread on the same problem I am having and it is located at:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8636/can039t-get-rise-out-my-whole-wheat-bread#comment-44873

The first picture it shows is pretty much what my loaves look like and they attribute it to overproofing.  My process is 

  • A soaker the night before and
  • A poolish or biga in the fridge also the night before and then
  • A fermentation stage of about 1 hour and finally a
  • Proofing in the pans of about 1 hour.

I doubt very much that it is a proofing problem with me in this case...maybe all WW loaves look like bricks except in the stores..... 

    Soundman's picture
    Soundman

    CountryBoy, I couldn't wait. Thanks for posting that link. That's why people didn't flock to your post. They may have missed yours or just drained their brains responding to the other, newer TFL poster.

    Anyway, there are a lot of great bakers in that thread, so you have a lot to play with as you get the best results from your recipe.

    I agree, your problem is not over-proofing. I think, as I said above, you probably need to adjust the recipe on the level of coarse flour, and maybe to add in some bread flour. I await your response on the question of hydration. That might have an influence on the ability of the dough to hold together for kneading.

    Soundman (David)

    Mini Oven's picture
    Mini Oven

    I think of yolks like adding oil. I would keep the whites, they do add strength and protein glue but decide between the yolks or the oil not both.  Or use one yolk and reduce the oil.

    Mini O

    KosherBaker's picture
    KosherBaker

    Hi CountryBoy.

    The key is usually in the details. Now I don't have any of the Reinhart books yet, so I can't see what the directions say for this bread. But even if I had the book that would not guarantee that you followed the directions. :)

    So if you post step by step your process for preparing this bread in as much a detail as you can, I think you will get even more help, on top of all the great advice you've received so far.

    I've baked without the use of the scale for a decade, and always took pride in baking by feel. After discovering this treasure trove of a sight. I reluctantly began using the scale. What I realized was that I still very much bake by feel, but now I know why I get where I get. I'm able to cross the line of someone who blindly follows the recipe to someone who understands why a given recipe was put together in a this particular way. In other words the scale is a teaching aid, and I can definitely use more knowledge. Additionally if notes are kept on previous bakes of the recipe that sort of completes the learning circle.

    Rudy

    apprentice's picture
    apprentice

    Well said, Rudy! Use of weights vs volume measurement really does take baking to a whole new level. I worked in volume for years. Lots of wonderful results. But once I tried weights...? Well, there was no going back.

    Carol

    CountryBoy's picture
    CountryBoy

    I agree with you re: process steps and

    Additionally if notes are kept on previous bakes of the recipe that sort of completes the learning circle.

    I could post the whole volume of written material on this recipe but I am very interested in whether or not someone following this recipe has actually succeeed in baking the bread as directed.

    Please note that my complete write up for both steps of the process and my evaluative notes of the end product are lengthy.  I believe that for me to post it would be voluminous and boring; and so am reluctant to do so.  It is for that reason that I have postponed doing so....eg, out of respect for and fear of boring people.

    CountryBoy's picture
    CountryBoy

     

    Ok, Rudy, you asked for it.  Listed below are all my journal entries for this recipe.  If nothing else it will hopefully show I am a least trying.

    I would heartily suggest that everyone else avoid the following post in its entirety.  But with that said here goes.....

     \\\\\\\\\\\\\

    Whole Wheat Bread..P. Reinhart, BBA-271, 02.07.08.  Yield for my proportions: 3 Loaves

    Tests: 1/18/08: Good crumb but top collapsed.  Don’t bake 60 mins.-better at 45min.  Allow dough rise top of pans only.  Too low temp in oven can cause collapse. 2/3/08: No collapse; all find. Baked 40 mins, but will try 45min. next time. Sprinkled WW flour on pans.  Final bread needs stronger  crumb…Rating: 7/10 2/20/08:Rating-8/10. When kneading the bread, put flour on the hands and not water. Also try baking 20+30 min. 2/25/08:  I should have waited 10 minutes before kneading. Knead ball without breaking center. 3/3/08: Rating -6/10. Remember to use Crisco on pans other than Chicago.  Also: remember to have 20 min. wait right after mixing; then fold 2-3 times; 20 min. wait; fold 2-3 times, 20 min. wait; fold 2-3 times and put in bowl.  Bake for the extra 5 minutes. . All water is in Poolish and Soaker.  6/23/08:Rating:9/10; warm and humid; Secret: Autolyze after mixing everything together.  The warm weather and Autolyze made the difference. 7/03/08—Taste of crumb is 8/10 but since it was a warm day the bread more than doubled AND I slashed directly into it versus at an angle.  So both things made it more brick like.  So two secrets: Autolyze and dough temp when it rises too much even within an hour.. 7/24/08-Rating: 7of10…A humid/rainy day. ..This will not have much rise but it must be 3 loaves; if 2 large ones it will drape over the pans. Baked for close to an hour with tenting after 30 minutes. ..go for 50 mins on this recipe….the Crumb is not strong enough… 9/17/08: Rating 7 of 10; Not much rise..GO FOR 50 MINS-JUST DO IT; the crumb is good but a little dry for me even though the dough was plenty wet. The use of Lecithin is fantastic.!!!!

    Over all Note Summary for when I try next time : Substitute a couple of cups of White Bread flour for the WW; per MiniO, use yolks and no whites and choose between that and oil. Definitely go to 55-60 minutes on baking this with tenting all the way; make sure not to over Ferment or proof. Knead Only Once.

    Soaker (note: he also does it as biga)

    Single

     

    Double

    Triple

    1 Cup

    Course whole-wheat flour

    2 Cups

    3 Cups

    ¾ Cup

    Water, at room temp

    1 ½  Cups

    2 ¼  Cups

    Whole-Wheat Poolish of a thick paste consistency. (note: he also does it as biga)

    Single

     

    Double

    Triple

    1 ½ Cup

    High Protein whole-wheat flour

    3 Cups

    4 ½  Cups

    ¼  tsp

    Instant Yeast

    ½  tsp

    ¾  tsp

    ¾  Cup

    Water, at room temp

    1 ½  Cups

    2 ¼ Cups

     

    Me: Wheat Gluten

    1 T

    2T

    Dough

    Single

     

    Double

    Triple

    2 Cups

    High Protein whole-wheat flour

    4 Cups

    6 Cups

    1 1/3 tsps

    Salt

    2 2/3 tsps

    4 tsps

    1 tsp

    Instant Yeast

    2 tsps

    3 tsps

    2 Ts

    Honey

    4 Ts

    6 tps

    1 T

    Vegetable oil-optional

    2 Ts

    3 T (I do 2 T)

    1 Large

    Egg, slightly beaten (optional)

    2

    3 eggs

    2 Ts

    Sesame seeds, poppy seeds, (garnish)

    2 Ts

    6  T

    Me ..wheat gluten

    2 tsps

    1-Day before making the bread, make the Soaker and the Poolish.

    a. For the Soaker, mix the coarse whole-wheat flour and water in a bowl, cover it, and leave at room temp until the next day. 

    b. For the Poolish, mix the whole-wheat flour and yeast, then stir in the water to make a thick paste.  Stir only until all the four is hydrated, and cover and allow to ferment at room temp for 2 - 4 hours, or until it just begins to bubble.  Then put it in the fridge overnight.

    2-Next day remove poolish 1-2 hours before making the dough to take off the chill.   

    For Dough: In mixing bowl stir together the whole wheat flour, salt, and yeast.  Then add the poolish and the soaker oil and egg.  Stir with metal spoon for about 1 minute until the dough forms a ball, add’g more water if needed. AUTOLYZE

    3-Sprinkle whole-wheat flour on the counter, transfer the dough to it and begin kneading.  This will take 10-15 minutes-but I do it 5-10 mins.  Then AUTOLYZE for 15 mins. The dough should be tacky but not sticky.  It should pass the windowpane test and register 77-81 degrees. 

    4-Ferment at room temp for approx. 2 hours or until dough doubles in size

    5-Divide the dough into 2 equal pieces (18 oz each). 

    a. Gently Shape them into 5 X 8 pieces (2” thick?) and roll up and place in loaf pans. Mist/cover.

    6-Proof at room temp about 90 minutes or until nearly doubles in size and is cresting above the lip of the pans.

    7-Preheat the oven to 350 degrees (I do 400 degrees) with oven rack in the middle of the oven.  

    8-Bake the loaves for about 25 minutes-tent; continue baking for 20 minutes longer-with Tent.

    9-Remove from pans and cool on rack for at least 2 hours before slicing.  

    Mike Avery's picture
    Mike Avery

    Countryboy asked 3 questions:

    • Is there any technique that I can use to get more height on the loaf. Every loaf is about 1/2 inch above the pan and looks more brick like than loaf like. Is there anything to give it more height? I do add 2 tsps. of wheat gluten but that does not do it. And throwing more yeast in will make for lots of holes which I do not like.
    • Also, I am baking it for 45 mins. Does anyone out there bake for longer? Can whole wheat bread go for 55-60 mins. at 350.
    • I still do not know how to knead this whole wheat bread. I autolyze appropriately but getting this bread to knead seems impossible????

     

    There are two reasons why people want a bread to rise higher. One is they prefer a lighter texture. That is hard to get with whole wheat on this side of an exotic chemistry lab. You can get a decent rise, but it will never rival white breads. Until you go over to the dark side and do whatever wonderbread et al are doing to the whole wheat.

     

    Some less toxic ways of getting more rise are to add about 5% vital wheat gluten and/or add a solid fat to the dough. It MUST be solid. Liquid oils don't add much rise, and when you melt a solid oil, it's no longer solid.

    The other reason people want more rise is becasue they want a bread the right size for the sandwiches they prefer. If you want a taller loaf, you can put a bit more dough in the pan. A recipe is a starting point. Peter Reinhart isn't going to kick in the door to your kitchen because you put 22 ounces of dough in the pan instead of 18. Doughs will rise different amounts. Some double, some triple, some do more.  So adjust the amount of dough in the pan to give you the size loaf you want.

     

    I don't like to bake breads at 350. 375 is as low as I go. I bake some at 450.  Bagels at 525.  Breads with sugars in them are baked at the low end. Lean breads at higher temps. Whole wheats at lower temps. There's no magic to cooking times. If the bread is done, pull it out of the oven. If it's not, leave it in longer.

     

    Whole wheat kneads the same as white flour - or at least there are no special techniques for whole wheat.  It takes a little longer than white flour, but not much.  I usually knead 5 minutes (whether by hand or machine), let the dough sit 5 minutes, and then knead for 5 more. A tricky thing with whole grain flours is they absorb more liquid than refined flours. But they do it more slowly. So, people start with a wet dough, panic and add more flour and then it's suddenly too dry. They mess around a lot adding flour and water and flour and water and then it doesn't rise well because they don't have enough yeast or salt for the adjusted dough.

     

    The rest gives the flour time to absorb the moistuire.  I don't adjust liquids in whole wheat breads until late in the second knead.  Knead until the dough passes the windowpane test.

     

    I've found that kneading is a lot like sex. Everyone thinks they know how to do it. They don't really want to hear about how someone else is doing it. And they are very reluctant to change how they are doing it. Still, if you can stand videos of someone doing it, I demonstrate some effective ways of doing it at http://www.sourdoughhome.com/kneadingconverting.html

     

    Mike

     

    CountryBoy's picture
    CountryBoy

    Thanks Mike for taking the time to provide guidance.  When you say

    1-Some less toxic ways of getting more rise are to add about 5% vital wheat gluten and/or add a solid fat to the dough.

    2-Peter Reinhart isn't going to kick in the door to your kitchen because you put 22 ounces of dough in the pan instead of 18. Doughs will rise different amounts

    On item #1 I added 1 tablespoon of vital wheat gluten to my mix with the dough mixture; am not sure if this is the right phase.

    On item #2-Peter can kick down my door anytime; he is more than welcome.   But yes I have tried adding more dough and it just spreads over the edge instead of going up.

    Your suggestion for kneading 5 mins. and waitg five minutes is a good one.  But in the recipe it says to knead only once.

    Mike Avery's picture
    Mike Avery

    5% vital wheat gluten is about 1 tbsp in a cup of flour.  Or, put the tbsp in a cup, fill the cup with flour.

     

    Like I said, take liberties  as needed to make the recipe work for you.

     

    Good luck,

    Mike

     

    KosherBaker's picture
    KosherBaker

    OK CountryBoy.

    I have some questions for you. First I think we need to establish what kind of bread you'd like to bake and eat, in this particular instance. Enriched breads, ones that contain eggs, oil, sugar, honey and such tend to produce loaves that are called sandwich type loaves. They tend to have soft crust and soft crumb and work well for ... well ... sandwiches. A leaner dough will produce a decidedly crisper crust and crumb slightly distinct from that of enriched bread. Furthermore in my experience, free form lean breads produce a thicker crust than the ones baked in metal pans.
    The specificity of enriched breads is that they will proof much faster than lean breads and prefer to be baked at lower oven temperatures because fats and sugars burn easily and quickly at high temperatures. So this is my first question to you. Are you after an sandwich type bread here or a hearth/crusty bread? Your answer will affect many of the suggestions you are likely to receive from experts in the corresponding fields.

    Now we can look at the notes.

    Ok, Rudy, you asked for it. Listed below are all my journal entries for this recipe. If nothing else it will hopefully show I am a least trying.

    I would heartily suggest that everyone else avoid the following post in its entirety. But with that said here goes.....


    Well I'm a trouble maker :) What to do?! On a serious note I think lots of people will read this and benefit from the notes and the discussion ensuing from them. Think about it. What do you learn more from? Looking at pretty pictures of loaves in the book or the web? Or following a troubleshooting discussion? And the wordier the discussion the more there is to learn as long as the words are to the point. :)
    Of course, nothing wrong with pretty pictures as they are inspiring. :) Your humility is quite beautiful though, very touching. At least to me.
    Good crumb but top collapsed.

    The leading cause of concave tops, by far, is over proofing. Flat tops causes may be 80% over proofing, 20% gluten improperly formed/aligned.
    Don’t bake 60 mins.-better at 45min. Allow dough rise top of pans only. Too low temp in oven can cause collapse.

    I have never heard that a too low of an oven temperature or too long a baking time will cause the loaf to collapse. If someone knows otherwise, I'm listening. But in my experience this has never been the case. So I would put these conclusions back on the table, unless we hear more about them.
    Final bread needs stronger crumb

    This tends to be a sign of gluten under development.
    Knead ball without breaking center.

    This tends to be a sign of a dough that is too dry. If I understood your comment correctly.
    Also: remember to have 20 min. wait right after mixing; then fold 2-3 times; 20 min. wait; fold 2-3 times, 20 min. wait; fold 2-3 times and put in bowl.

    A couple of things jumped out at me when I read this. First I find that it is nearly impossible to tie the necessary proofing duration to time. Because temperature, humidity, ingredients and many other factors will affect how the dough behaves. I find that a much more reliable way to tell when it is time to fold the dough or to send it into the oven is by seeing how much its volume increased. When the volume increases by 75% to 90% it is time. The second thing that jumped out at me was fold 2-3 times. If you can expand on your folding technique, I think the folding experts may be able to suggest something, or it may just be perfect.
    The warm weather and Autolyze made the difference. 7/03/08—Taste of crumb is 8/10 but since it was a warm day the bread more than doubled AND I slashed directly into it versus at an angle. So both things made it more brick like. So two secrets: Autolyze and dough temp when it rises too much even within an hour..

    It looks like your own notes are testifying here to you that your bread in fact over proofed within an hour :)
    per MiniO, use yolks and no whites and choose between that and oil.

    Actually MO suggested using whites and not yolks. But if you answer my first question it might make this whole point moot.
    Then put it in the fridge overnight.
    2-Next day remove poolish 1-2 hours before making the dough to take off the chill.

    Now, please forgive me for asking this question if it comes off offensive. Are you sure the recipe calls for poolish refrigeration? In my experience a poolish, or any other starter for that matter, that is used up with 21 to 24 hours does not need to be refrigerated. And as a nice bonus it will develop fuller flavor at room temp.
    4-Ferment at room temp for approx. 2 hours or until dough doubles in size

    During this bulk fermentation, does the dough receive any folding? If yes, how often?
    6-Proof at room temp about 90 minutes or until nearly doubles in size and is cresting above the lip of the pans.

    As I mentioned up above. The leading and best indicator from the above sentence is until nearly doubles in size the 90 minutes and the cresting part are merely guidelines for when the leading indicator might occur.
    8-Bake the loaves for about 25 minutes-tent; continue baking for 20 minutes longer-with Tent.

    Depending on the answer to the first question the need for this may well go away.

    Rudy

    CountryBoy's picture
    CountryBoy

    My reason for not wanting to post all my journal notes is that it shows to everyone how very ignorant I am after 2 years of baking bread.  Somehow ignorance is easier to deal with when not publicly displayed.  And I do sincerely hope others have given up on this thread and moved on with their life.  With that said, the answers: 

    1-What kind of bread?  I want to bake sandwich bread, but I do not want the limp sandwich bread as in the big grocery markets.  Enrichments will weaken the texture.  Mike refers to bread from the Dark Side, a la grocery chains; I don't want bread from the dark side.

    2- Are you sure the recipe calls for poolish refrigeration? In my experience a poolish, or any other starter for that matter, that is used up with 21 to 24 hours does not need to be refrigerated.

    Answer: Peter R. has a biga consistancy rather than poolish that he then puts in the fridge, according to the book.

    2-If you can expand on your folding technique.

    Answer: Ideally what I do with white bread is to gently roll the dough out of the bowl on to the table and then flatten it again gently.  Then I fold it as Beranbaum suggests: first from the right, then from the top, then from the left, and finally fold into the bottom.  However, with WW flour I find that this orderly progression is not possible and so I just end up flattening, pushing down, and rolling over as you have seen Julia Child do.  I am not as violent with the bread as she is....

    3-During fermentation does the dough receive folding?

    Answer- the dough is folded after the fermentation or first phase and then I divide, autolyze, and put in pans for a period of time until it crests the top of the pans.

    It sounds in summary that my major problem is letting the dough set too long in the initial fermentation stage and that I need to pay close attention to the expansion of the dough so that it does not get too big...rather just 90% expansion.

    Thank you Rudy.

    Thank you also to everyone and Mike Avery.  Mike I have dialup connection and so am not able to watch videos on the net.

    CountryBoy's picture
    CountryBoy

    The question remains......are there people out there that have baked this particular recipe successfully and what do they advise as critical to that success?

    I have no doubt this recipe was tested on no less than hundreds of people and so Peter knows whereof he speaks; however, is it possible to hear from some of the successful bakers out there?

     

    Mike Avery's picture
    Mike Avery

    Rudy commented:

    It looks like your own notes are testifying here to you that your bread in fact over proofed within an hour :)

     

    That is in keeping with Reinhart's methods.  He feels he builds the flavors in the overnught rises of the poolish or biga, the overnight poolish, so he uses a LOT of yeast for a quick rise.

     

    With tiles in it, my oven takes an oven to reach temp.  I start preheating it as soon as the loaves based on Reinhart's techniques are formed.  When they are at their peak, it's into the oven.... about an hour.  Since they are, by most definitions, over yeasted they can not be held long.  They'll over rise and collapse.

     

    Mike

     

    JMonkey's picture
    JMonkey

    ... I've tried this bread and, though it tastes pretty good, I don't think there's enough flour in it to get a loaf that's the size I like. For whole wheat bread, I find I need at least 1 lb flour per loaf, which is usually at least 3 cups, and more often about 3.5.

    CountryBoy's picture
    CountryBoy

    I believe that when all is said and done all I want is to be able, as one wise person said, to make " no fuss bread ."  That is all: " no fuss bread ." 

    Mike Avery's picture
    Mike Avery

    "If it was easy, everyone would do it!"

     

    At times I think that bread book authors go out of their way to make life difficult for bakers.  As you work on baking, you need to think about what YOU want and whether what the cookbook author, website author or whomever is suggesting moves you closer to what you want.  If not, why try it?

     

    Mike

     

    CountryBoy's picture
    CountryBoy

    My thanks to all for their guidance on the question.