The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Philippe Gosselin's Pain à l'Ancienne (according to Peter Reinhart, interpretted by dmsnyder, with modifications)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Philippe Gosselin's Pain à l'Ancienne (according to Peter Reinhart, interpretted by dmsnyder, with modifications)

Gosselin Pain a l'Ancienne

Gosselin Pain a l'Ancienne

Gosselin baguettes

Gosselin baguettes

Gosselin baguette Crumb

Gosselin baguette Crumb

Gosselin Pain Rustique

Gosselin Pain Rustique

Gosselin Pain Rustique Crumb

Gosselin Pain Rustique Crumb

Both Peter Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice" (BBA) and Daniel Leader's "Local Breads" contain formulas for "Pain à l'Ancienne," based on the explorations during the 1990's by several Parisian bakers of lengthening bulk fermentation to achieve improved flavor. Of course, these techniques could not have been used in the "old days" that the name of the bread implies. Bakers devoted to this new technique use modern refrigeration which was not available to their ancestors.

Reinhart based his version of pain à l'ancienne on that of Philippe Gosselin. In BBA, Reinhart describes Gosselin's method in very general terms and then says the formula he provides is modified to make it easier for home bakers. In January, 2003 Reinhart sent a message to an internet mailing list which contained a detailed enough account of what Gosselin told him to write a formula. For me, the original formula did not seem more difficult than the one Reinhart published. This is because I almost always bake on weekends when I can accommodate my activities to the original formula. So, I thought I would give it a try. My interpretation of Reinhart's interpretation is as follows:

Pain à l'Ancienne of Philippe Gosselin, as described by Peter Reinhart

Flour.......................500 gms

Water......................375 gms

Salt.........................8.75 gms-

Instant yeast...............5 gms

Mix the flour with 325 gms of ice cold water and refrigerate overnight.

The next day, remove mixture from refrigerator. Add yeast, salt and another 25-50 gms of cold water and mix thoroughly for 4-6 minutes.

Ferment at room temperature until doubled in bulk (up to 6 hours).

One hour before baking, preheat oven to 460F.

Divide into 4 equal piece and gently pre-shape into torpedos.

Rest dough 10 minutes.

Shape into baguettes by stretching to 12-14 inches, score and bake immediately with steam at 460F.

The breads I made today used the following modification and extrapolations:

1. I used 50 gms of Guisto's rye flour and 450 gms of KAF Bread Flour.

2. After the long "autolyse," I mixed the flour and water with 30 gms of additional water, the yeast and the salt. The autolysed dough had moderate gluten development already and didn't want to take in the additional water with hand stirring, so I did the best I could with a scraper, then mixed in my KitchenAid with the paddle for about 3 minutes, then the dough hook for another 3 minutes. I then transferred the dough to a 2 quart glass pitcher and used Hamelman's in-the-bowl stretch and fold technique - 20 folds, 3 times at 20 minute intervals over the first hour. I then let the dough rest, covered, until doubled.

3. Gosselin's instructions to Reinhart indicated the dough would take 6 hours to double. In my (warm) kitchen today, it doubled in 4 hours.

4. I emptied the dough onto a flour-dusted board and dusted the top. I divided the dough into 3 parts. I pre-shaped the two smaller ones into rectangles and folded each long side to the middle and sealed the seams. Those, I rested with the seams down for about 10 minutes then stretched into "baguettes" and placed them on floured parchment paper. The larger piece was just cut in half to make pain rustique, rested and similarly placed on parchment.

5. I baked at 460F with steam on a pizza stone. After 7 minutes, I removed the loaf pan and skillet and continued to bake for a total of 20 minutes. I then turned the oven off, cracked it open, and left the loaves on the stone for an additional 5 minutes.

Comments

These breads had a nice, crunchy crust and an open, tender, somewhat chewy crumb. The taste was classic sweet baguette - as good as I have ever made. My wife liked it, but said she preferred the taste of the Anis baguettes with sourdough added. No surprise, as we are both partial to sourdough breads.

I was concerned that the pre-shaping of the baguettes, which Reinhart does not call for in his adaptation of Gosselin's formula, would decrease the openness of the crumb too much. It was more open than I expected. I guess I have learned to handle dough gently enough. On the other hand, it would be worthwhile to try making baguettes with this method but just cutting the dough and stretching it, without any other shaping, to see if the crumb would be even more open.

If your baking schedule allows for Gosselin's method, I would certainly recommend you give it a try. In my hands, it makes very fine baguettes.

The pains rustique require no forming, and are essentially like ciabattas. Reinhart says this dough can also be stretched into a circle or rectangle and used for pizza. I have not tried that and would be interested in hearing from anyone who does so.

David

Comments

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hamelman's Rye with Flax Seeds2
Hamelman's Rye with Flax Seeds2

David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Just this morning, I thought about starting a topic about this bread because after you published the technique the other day, I made them. So, I wanted to see if anyone else had and what they thought about it. I didn't take pictures. So, what a great surprise to see that you did them.

First of all, they look wonderful!

Second of all, a couple of months ago I made the Jacques Torrès chocolate chip cookies that call for an overnight rest in the fridge. This brought out an incredible hazelnut flavour in the dough, that, mixed with the butter and brown sugar was sheer heaven. So, when I made these baguettes, the first thing I noticed when biting in it was that strong hazelnut taste. I don't know why, but having the flour sit alone with the water really brought out this flavour, more so than when there is yeast or sourdough.And I admit that in a baguette, I found it very disturbing and not good. So, I decided to try them again to see if the same thing happened, but I haven't had time, yet.

So, did you notice the difference in flavour? Do you eat chocolate chip cookies? If so, try the Torrès ones and then do these baguettes... or anyone else who has time to try two recipes at a time! :-)

For the moment, I definitely prefer the sourdough baguettes.

Jane 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.

Uuuuuh ... I'm not sure how to ask this. .... You washed the bowl from the cookie dough before mixing the bread dough in it, right? ;-)

I didn't get any nutty flavors in my baguettes. Just nice, sweet wheatiness. As I said: "Classic baguette flavor." Of course, I would expect you to get "flavour," but that's not important.

Do I eat chocolate chip cookies? This is a joke, isn't it? My wife, who is the resident cookie baker, can't make too many. She makes about 3 dozen at a time, and the two of us go through them in less than a week. Her recipe starts with the classic Tollhouse Cookie recipe, but uses brown sugar and almost always adds nuts (walnuts, almonds or cashews), almond butter (which we have discussed in another thread) and granola. We can pretend they are "healthy," in spite of all the butter. BTW, I love chocolate chip cookies together with a tart peach or nectarine.

I do not know the Jacques Torres recipe. Would you share it or point to a source for it?


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

David,

Hazelnut taste... I swear it's true!!!! :-) Well, I guess maybe I'm the nut around here.

Here's the recipe:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/dining/091crex.html

Do get your wife to try it so you can tell me what you think as avid cookie eaters.

Jane

PS. So do you mash that peach on top of the cookies, or take one bite here and one bite there. :-) 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.

I'm sure there is something about the physiology of taste that explains your "hazelnut flashbacks." Try tasting the baguettes again after a few days without hazelnuts.

Thanks for the link. I'll print out the recipe.

My wife thinks she doesn't like hazelnuts in baked goods. I love them, especially freshly dry roasted. Anyway, she pounced on Bart's Speculoos recipe as soon as I mentioned it and is baking those today, along with a batch of fresh tomato sauce, salmon cakes and .... something else. She would not take it well if I gave her another cooking chore right now. I'll just leave the recipe where she will happen to come across it par hazard.

Added: I see the recipe does not call for hazelnuts. That's your addition. Hmmmm ... Soft cookies. My wife/cookie baker likes the crisp all the way through style. Oh, well.

Peaches and chocolate chip cookies: Definitely alternating bites. And, it's one of those things where, if you run out of one of them before the other, it is mandatory to get more of the one you have run out of. You can finish off a batch of cookies quite fast this way.


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

There aren't any hazelnuts anyware! It's just that I personally find that flour and water, autolysed together over night, then baked CREATE a hazelnut taste... or what I perceive to be like hazelnut... let's say a nutty taste... that doesn't happen when yeast is added (or starter). That makes a different taste. So, I thought if you tried the cookie recipe you might see what I mean because the same thing happens in both types of recipes where the flour and moisture sit for a long time.

Maybe on her beside table...

Jane 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

It's not a flashback after all. It's a delusion!

I apologize for the misunderstanding. Well, then ... I can't say that I recall getting a nut-like flavor from a bread, unless it had nuts in it. But your taste sense may be more acute than mine. (I've smoked a pipe since Sir Walter Raleigh first brought sot weed back from the colonies, you know.)

Re. Torres Cookies: I put the recipe where she stacks bills to pay. If I put it by the bedside table, I'm afraid she would read it, get hungry and have to get up for a snack.


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Delusions...

Or maybe it is our WONDERFUL French flour! :-)

Oh, yes, that's risky... the stack of bills is better. Darn, you should have put the article about them with the recipe because if she reads the article, she'll have to run to the kitchen to try because it said they are the BEST chocolate chip cookies in the world! 

Jane 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hmmmm .... She believes her own chocolate chip cookies are the best in the world. Her only competition is our younger son. He uses the same recipe but has a magic touch with them. I've not had better, but we do prefer crunchy to chewy in our chocolate chip cookies.

 I'm sure you appreciate this is a matter requiring some delicacy.


David
foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Before I continue I must congratulate your efforts. Those are truly lovely looking baguettes David.

However, seeing your results and comments also mark the end of my baguette quest.  Quite frankly I'm dismayed.  Over the last few months I have spent countless hours working diligently in my somewhat limited kitchen (I own no couche, no professional tools, no peel and only a modest pizza stone). I persevered because I felt that I could rely on the support of the people here on the forums.  Your energy and motivation has been infectious and I hoped that I could participate and share in the ongoing discovery and learning.

And yet everytime I felt like I made progress - I received comments either questioning or belittling my achievement.  For example - I'll talk about sourdough baguettes and get criticised for even thinking that such a thing is possible.  I suggest that I focus on making a 'fluffy baguette  and I'm told that it's impossible and undesirable. (FWIW I've been experimenting  with long autolyse a la Gosselin - long before I ever even heard of Gosselin or the subject even came up for discussion on these forums) I work on achieving a sweet, wheaty flavour from the dough only to find that everyone is only interested in getting 'sour' flavour....apparently in contradiction to their own previous opinions.

Small wonder then I'm left with a very bad taste in my mouth over this entire 'baguette quest'...I wish you well in your future endeavours. Forgive me if I don't feel like sharing further in that.

FP

 

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Hey Foolish poolish, now you're being a bit foolish!

That is now three posts that you have done where you belittle yourself and your efforts and don't reply when we answer back. You absolutely cannot say that your efforts don't interest us. 

For the sourdough baguette, I still don't like a 100% sourdough baguette, but that's my problem. Both you and Pat make gorgeous ones that you love. I like at least a bit of yeast because it does make a lighter crumb compartively. Your last baguettes were gorgeous. You also told us that you hadn't quite finalized the recipe, so we have been waiting!

And I still hate sour sourdough, that hasn't changed! As for the long initial autolyse without yeast/levain, it is definitely worth playing around with.

It's only human nature to follow "guides". You enjoy going blind and playing around and that is more power to you. But do understand other bakers that need or look for some basic guides and then play around with them. Imagine the world if there weren't any masters to inspire. And now that we know them, maybe your experimental recipes will seem more logical to us.

And we are only a limited group of people, with limited time. I know for myself, I often read posts, am inspired by them but don't necessarily have or take the time to respond. So, that means many people read but don't say anything. I looked at the stats for my bread blog and saw that I have been getting record audience, yet when you look at the commentaries, there aren't that many. People read, but often don't say so.

Jane 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I do hope you will try this formula. If I understand your preferences, you might find this approach to your liking.

As I said in responding to your last expressions of discouragement, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.

Please don't take other's statements of personal preference as judgements regarding your own preferences. You have as much right to your tastes as anyone else.

Again, my only criticism is that you are unduly harsh on yourself.

Have a good day. Please.


David

holds99's picture
holds99

I, for one, can assure you that your experiments, efforts and posts are greatly appreciated.  It's also your right to express your opinion without having your "paper graded", so to speak.  I too opted out of the baguette quest.  Hang in there.

Howard

holds99's picture
holds99

You just keep amazing me.  The pain rustique looks really intersting.  I have tried Reinhart's Pain Ancienne in the past with mixed results.  I'll use your notes/post and give it another try in the near future.  Thanks so much for sharing.

Howard

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

This whole baguette quest has been loads of fun. As I've said, who can beat experiments with such delicious data?

I made PR's pain a l'ancienne exactly once. They had really good flavor but were otherwise disappointing. I should try them again, now that I am older and wiser. Well ... older, anyway.

I recommend the pains rustiques. You get the same flavor and more aerated crumb without having to struggle with shaping. They have a different crust:crumb ration, of course. You know, Calvel supposedly said pain rustique made with baguette dough was his personal favorite bread.


David

holds99's picture
holds99

David,

I'm by no means an authority on the subject but I had the same experience with PR's pain a l'ancienne.  It was particularly disappointiing, considering his statement in the intro. to the recipe: "Without a question this is the dough that has gotten the most recent attention from my students...and around the country in my day-long workshops for home bakers".  

Howard

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Howard.

Yeah. Well, there are lots of kinds of "attention."

The original Gosselin formula produced the best tasting baguettes I've made. As a matter of fact, I'm getting ready to bake some for dinner tonight.

The exploration of cold fermentation in general has been very productive. Viz. the Anis Bouabsa baguettes and their derivatives such as my pain de campagne/San Joaquin Sourdough. I have the latter fermenting in the refrigerator to bake tomorrow, as it happens.


David

holds99's picture
holds99

Re: "gets a lot of attention", guess caveat emptor comes into play here.  Have a good weekend.

Howard

josordoni's picture
josordoni

My favourite kind of rolls - and they split to toast for breakfast wonderfully.

Soundman's picture
Soundman

Hi David,

Thank you for your blog and this post! Naturally I was interested to see how your Pain a l'Ancienne came out, and it is nothing short of beautiful. The baguette shaping I envy, and the crumb is lovely and open and even shiny! The way you got the flour to shade the crust so delicately is superb as well, and the scoring just invites the eye. Artisanal baking in the very best sense.

The sweet and wheaty taste you mention is the reason behind the unusual initial technique. The theory, of course, is that the immediate chill allows for enzymatic action that releases more sugar than the yeast can consume, hence more for the palette and the sweeter taste. I'm not sure I've had that many baguettes as sweet as this makes, but sweetness, like mileage, may vary.

I appreciate your can-do spirit and the artful results you are getting. I wish I had more time to admire in words the Pain Rustique, but I'll come back for that at another time.

The variety of your adventures is inspirational, so please keep up the great work!

Soundman (David)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The "secret" of shaping these baguettes is to just pull the cut pieces of dough into baguette shape. No kidding.

The dough is extremely soft and hard to score well. I was surprised how much bloom I got, to be frank. Maybe the Komichi tomato knife I used helped.

I use a flour "shaker" - a metal can with a perforated top - to dust flour on the bench and on dough, when called for. It does a better job than I could do by hand. I use the same for flouring fish filets, for example, before sauteing.

Thanks for your nice comments.


David

Soundman's picture
Soundman

David,

It goes to show that it's all about the dough. The cuts may not look boulangerie identical, but they are lovely. (I love my Pure Komachi. I've lost my fear of dragging and tearing the dough.)

And why didn't I think of that, a flour shaker?  I need one of those... You got the crust picture perfect.

David (Soundman)

stefchik's picture
stefchik

Hi David,


 


I just baked 4 baguettes based on your instructions; they are divine...I ate one of them myself just as they are cooling down, good result, great crust, nice rustic crumb with plenty of irregular holes, a joy to prepare the poolish, mix - as you say, the dough doubles/triples within two hours+ (it is in the 80's inside the house today had to turn on the a/c), the only thing I didn't do was not to leave them in the turned off oven as I was preparing to bake your Semolina Filone which is almost baked, on that separately.


 


Thanks again, let me see what other recipes you have and I will "attend" to them in the next few days,


 


Enjoy the Sunday,


 


Stefan

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm delighted the Gosselin baguettes worked well for you . I'd love to see photos (if any are left to photograph).


Of the "plain" baguettes I've made, the Gosselin's have the nicest flavor. But there are still other recipes I've yet to try.


So, you made a Semolina Filone! I gather the gloppy dough didn't freak you out. Brave man!


Happy baking!


David

keesmees's picture
keesmees

a flour shaker...  thats a good one. i'll give it a try.

I use a 60 cents tea strainer, but sometimes it strains a bit too enthusiastic.

 

nice ficelles david. thats the way I like them.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder


David

guysnape's picture
guysnape

Your pain a l'ancienne look great! I'm definitely going to try that version of the formula next time (I've made Reinhart's version quite a few times). I went to Paris this April and tried a Gosselin baguette - report at http://www.breadsecrets.com/blog/?p=36 - the crumb in your pains rustiques definitely have the right look about them. Maybe a bit less shiny? Hard to tell, with the pictures being taken in different light conditions.


Anyway, well done with the bread and many thanks for posting the "original" formula.


 


- guy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Please let us know how yours turn out.

David

blackhorse16a's picture
blackhorse16a

Getting ready to try your recipe (the best compliment). Rheinhart says preheat to 550º, then lower to 475 after last spritz. What do you think about this?


Joe

md_massimino's picture
md_massimino

Just so I'm clear, there's no yeast in the pre-ferment/autolyze?  If not the result is a cold congealed slab of flour and water, which is like impossible to mix yeast and salt into.  Do you add the water first to looosen up everything and then add the salt and yeast?  I added the salt and yeast first because that's what the directions state but it was very hard to incorporate the dry ingredients into the slab.  It turns very gloppy so I basically just used my hands to try to squish everything together.  The dough is rising now so I can't report on the results yet.  It's my first time using instant yeast and i've wanted to try this recipe for a long time, just seems wacky.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, md_massimino.


Sorry. I just saw your question now. How did your baguettes turn out?


Yes. The autolyse just has flour and water.


As you can see in my original post, incorporating the other ingredients after the autolyse was a challenge to me, too.


I think the salt will tighten the gluten and make it even harder to get the additional water in, so I'd add the water first. 


Since making these, I've read about the "double hydration" technique. I'd try adding the additional water little by little. I would not try doing this by hand. If you don't have a mixer, use another recipe. 


David

inlovewbread's picture
inlovewbread

Haven't tried the BBA formula yet, and I think I'll try this version and the one from the book to compare. Thanks for posting this! Can't wait to try it

inlovewbread's picture
inlovewbread

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md_massimino's picture
md_massimino

The bread came out tasting very good, with nice crumb and crust but I couldn't make them take a baguette form because the dough was so wet.  It struck me as more of a ciabatta dough because it was so gloppy. I also used all-purpose flour and not bread flour so that may have had something to do with the slack factor.


Now, I also tried the original Reinhart recipe which mixed all of the ingredients (including yeast) the night before and then retarded overnight.  That produced about the same results taste and loaf-shape wise, but not so hard to deal with on day 2.


Two things I'm going to try tonight.  I'm going to add less water after the long autolyze.  I'm also going to try to use the mixer as you stated in your post.  I'm really trying to find a better baguette recipe that doesn't require as much attention as the traditional ones. getting close I think, even though the results are a little hit and miss.


On another note, I began another batch of sourdough starter yesterday and that baby is already jumping after one day.  I sat it by the window and by a big pile of fruit and veg.  My last starters died when I went on away for a week and left them on the counter.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Reinhart says to just cut the dough and stretch it into baguette lengths, not try to shape them. They are supposed to be "rustic."


Reinhart's pain-à-l'ancienne probably needs as little "attention" as any bread I know. Another one, which I highly recommend by the way, is Pierre Nury's Light Rye from Daniel Leader's "Local Breads." The recipe for that is available on TFL.


Regarding your sd starter: The high activity on day one is not unusual, but it will quiet down for several days before the right beasties get established. Don't get discouraged when it seems to be doing nothing.


David

reyesron's picture
reyesron

I bake a batch of Pain a l'ancienne two or three times a week.  I primarily use the BBA recipe but I recently tried Peter's somewhat different technique that he employs in Artisan Breads Everday (ABE).  All in all, I prefer the BBA technique but that may because I've done it so much, corrected a lot of my bad technique and can probably say I do it pretty well.  Yesterday morning, I baked a batch of the BBA technique for a party and made a fairly bad mistake, in my opinion, although several party goers said it was the best bread they ever ate.  What I did wrong was I formed it.  As I cut the pieces of dough that was refrigerated for about twenty hours, it felt like regular dough, as opposed to the high hydration no kneads, so I rolled it a few times and scored it.  In doing that, I degased it and the crumb was tight even though I got a pop with the oven spring.  Additionally, the crust looked a tad strange.  I almost thought my oven was acting up, as though it wasn't heating properly because it seemed to take longer to brown.  It may be that I opened the oven door more than I normally do.  In any case, I don't want to do that again.  I want to add one thing about technique.  When I first started baking bread, I prepared my hearth in reverse.  I put the steam pan near the bottom of the oven, and the stone on a rack higher up.  I don't know why I did it that way, but what you get is a pale underside.  In an electric oven, its best to have the stone near the bottom element for more heat, and better underside browning.  I am positive everyone else in this forum knows this, but I had to say it anyway, if for no other reason than to cleanse my soul...        

teketeke's picture
teketeke


Top-   Gosselin Pain a l'Ancienne


 Bottom-based on BBA 80% hydration




Gosselin Pain a l'Ancienne


based on BBA


 


teketeke's picture
teketeke

I can't put pictures and words together nicely. I tried but it alread took a coulple hours to do it.


Anyway, I was jumping around our house because I finally had nice baguettes that I admired.  I had baked more than 200 baguettes since April 2010. I couldn't have  big holes and open crumbs that I was really looking for. I will try to bake more good baguettes...


I really thank you, David.  Thank you so much!!!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Your baguettes look very nice.


David

teketeke's picture
teketeke

David,Your compliment makes me happier than when I saw the baguettes came out of the oven!!  I have another poolish for tomorrow already. 


Thank you again,


teketeke

oceanicthai's picture
oceanicthai

Very helpful, thank you for posting your recipe, especially

jbc930's picture
jbc930

So here we are in USA., and being an amateur how come the recipe is in grams....ok...the French recipe may be in grams....but how do we measure grams?   i.e. yeast?  salt?  yes, you can weigh flour, but this does not help much, maybe the French have a better way to measure..  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm not sure what you are really asking. Are you implying using grams (presumably instead of ounces ... or is it cups?) is un-American?

I prefer weights in grams rather than pounds and ounces because calculations are just a lot easier dealing with a decimal system.

You measure weights in grams with a scale. Most digital scales sold in the USA will measure in both grams and ounces/pounds. Most measure to within 1 gram. Fractions of grams have to be estimated, unless you have an exceptional scale.

As far as I know, the French measure in the same way we do, i.e., with scales.

Happy baking!

David