The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Mike's Bread of Three Rivers

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Mike's Bread of Three Rivers

So, maybe some of you saw that Mike Avery gave me his version of the Bread of Three Rivers that I posted on my blog ... au levain. It was cryptic, but I had fun with it. The resulting bread using his technique is very, very good!

I hope you're around Mike so you can tell me if it is at all what you meant. I kept the same hydration level as the book, so that I could really compare the two. The crumb is way more open and elastic. The taste way more complex.

Thanks so much for sharing. 

Here's the page

http://aulevain.canalblog.com/archives/2008/09/05/10471992.html

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

If you were to compare this with the sourdough rye version of Anis' baguette formula, which would say made better eating? 

Or if just as good although different, what would the differences be in your opinion?

  Lynne

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Oh Lynne, you're asking a dye hard sourdough eater! I definitely prefer the sourdough baguette. And David's version with rye in it even better. But then we are straying.

This said, it is seems as good as the Anis pure yeast baguette. Much the same taste and texture. I'll have to redo this recipe in baguettes to really know for sure.

But this recipe is definitely better than any basic French bread I have eaten from a bakery.

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

rightyho, glad to hear that.  I was getting rather worried that it might be better than a nice Pain Levain. In which case it would be damned good...

I MUCH prefer sourdough and my rye is an essential these days... I've printed out David's explanation to give it a try, and my rye starter is elaborating away as we speak ready to start tomorrow.

I have high hopes!

 Lynne

 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

of the two methods, which was the easiest in terms of timing and lightness of touch (I don't like heavy kneading, it hurts my shoulders)?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Lynne.

If I may presume to cut in ... Jane's breads are certainly beautiful and sound delicious. Regarding ease of making, the Anis baguettes are made with a somewhat similar process, but do not have an overnight retardation of the formed loaves. The Anis baguettes are extremely easy to make, and their timing is the easiest to fit into a busy life of any method I know, with the possible exception of Nury's rye.

The "secret" of success, if their is one, is very gently dough handling after the overnight fermentation. Since you already value "lightness of touch," you sound well-equipped to make what I think is an outstanding bread. If you use the fold in the bowl technique (from Hamelman via proth5), it also is one of the least messy methods, since there is no "kneading" on the bench.

Obviously, I am encouraging you to try it. And do let us know how it comes out!


David

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Of course you can cut in - I believe it is called conversation LOL

 Tell me, my favourite starter is rye and that is the one I have fed up a bit this morning (with rye) with a view to elaborating overnight to mix the dough tomorrow.  Wiould you recommend that I elaborate with white or rye?

 

Lynne

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Lynne.

Interesting question! (I assume you are asking about the Anis baguettes.)

Well, my first reaction is: Try it with a rye starter and let us all learn something new.

My second reaction is: I don't see why it shouldn't work in principle. I would check the baker's percent of rye you would be adding if you use a rye starter.

My formula calls for 10% rye. So, if you use 100 gms of 100% hydration rye starter and do not substitute rye for any of the wheat flour, you would be spot on.

I bet it works great. I have a bias in favor of using rye in rye starter rather than rye flour in mixed-grain breads. Supposedly, fermentation and the resulting acid environment make rye more digestible.

Don't neglect to let us know how it works!


David

josordoni's picture
josordoni

The starter is 100% rye, and kept permanently in the fridge - each time I bake I halve, (about a rounded Tablespoon each bowl) feed one half with 2 tabs of rye and 2 of water mix and put straight back in the fridge, and feed the other the same and let that revive, then elaborate it up to the final amount of starter needed.  So there isn't a huge amount of rye in there at the moment.  I think I might make it up to the 100g required using all rye, as you say, just to see what happens. 

I assume your starter is roughly 100% hydration?

Janedo's picture
Janedo

What a coinicidence, speaking of whether to use white or rye starter! I just took two loaves of Hamelman's 40% from the oven. It said to use an active starter and I had already been building a rye starter, so I used it. The bread is incredibly delicious, perfectly balanced with a wonderful rye taste, but with the lightness of an "every day" bread. I did knead it longer than I usually do because of the needed gluten development. I even added 2 tbsp of gluten because we don't have bread flour with high protein.

So, Lynne, David answered your question. I kneeded both bâtards using the slap and fold method because it forms a ball type dough. With the baguette recipe, you can do the series of folds and the only inconvenience is having to be around. But NO strain on the arms.

It's interesting because all these different light rye, pain de campagne breads have some big and some subtle differences and it is good to try them all to find a personal favorite, or alternate depending on your mood. Ha ha! 

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

what the heck!  they are all delicious... LOL. 

I liked Mini Oven's suggestion of adding some potato to get that lovely heavy quality sometimes too (from the Barley thread).  I won't be doing it to David's formula tomorrow though, I want to see what that is like pure and unadulterated before I start mucking it about too much.

Lynne

 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Sorry David, you did already say that. I should try to read more slowly (except I am sneaking peaks on here when I should be working)....!!

Lynne

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Lynne.

Your message makes it look like you are measuring your flour and water by volume. Equal volumes will not give equal weights, which is what "100% hydration" means.

i hope you do have a kitchen scale accurate to 5 gms. Accurate to 1 gm is better yet.


David

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Hi David, I do measure when I am actually baking, but I find that feeding the starter works just fine with using approx measures and judging the texture as much as the weight.  I weigh occasionally, but can't really see any major difference in activity.  (I have to remind myself that I am, after all, only making bread for me, not trying to win a competition!!)

 and yes I have FOUR sets of scales:

 a glass platform scale that measures down to 1 gram and tares.  Used mainly for checking postage weights for my business, but occasionally gets borrowed for the kitchen.

a large spring scale that measures by 25g (and is not very accurate) but it does tare and is actually the one I use the most.

a small diet spring scale that measures by 1 gram that I use for the odd occasion I decide to weigh my starter feeds instead of scoop and stir.

a large old fashioned balance scale with a set of weights that is heavy and a pain, but very accurate.

oh, and the bathroom scales of course, if ever I decide to make industrial quantities..

 LOL

Lynne

 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Lynne.

You are obviously aware of the issue. Nuf said.


David

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

One of the things I do is teach baking classes. And I've decided that kneading is a lot like sex.

 

Everyone seems to think they know how to do it, they have trouble changing their way of doing it, and quite often when they do try something new, they find it's pretty neat.

 

I've had lots of students who knead very inefficiently, who exert too much energy, get too little result, and have trouble with it. I've had a lot of students who told me their arthritis, carpal tunnel syndrome, back issues or ??? kept them from kneading. So far, all of these students have said something along the lines of, "WOW!! I CAN KNEAD! IS THAT ALL THERE IS TO IT?" at the end of their first kneading. I finally put together videos about how I knead. I find that people who try my techniques are at least as effective as electric mixers up to 5 loaves or so, and it really is soothing.

There are a number of videos on the page at http://www.sourdoughhome.com/kneadingconverting.html and I've gotten a number of comments about how helpful they've been. I am planning on redoing the videos and the pages. Right now it covers two topics which leads to some confusion. I'd rather have one page on kneading and another on converting recipes.

 

A very effective alternative to kneading is the stretch and fold technique. The only drawback to the stretch and fold is that you have to be there for a long time. Once or twice an hour, you have to stretch and fold the dough. It is easy, it doesn't take long, but you have to do it. I explain the stretch and fold at http://www.sourdoughhome.com/stretchandfold.html

 

A few people, seemingly commenting upon my stretch and fold, suggest letting the dough rise until the dough doubles in size between stretch and folds. That is not at all my recommendation. I use the stretch and fold instead of a distinct first rise. Since we are messing with the dough every 30 to 60 minutes, it is deflated before it has a chance to fully rise. So, I pay no attention to how its rising. I stretch and fold on schedule. And when the dough is ready, I let it rest one more cycle, scale it, loaf it and let it rise to be baked.

 

I strongly feel if your dough rises in the 30 to 60 minutes I suggest between stretch and folds, you have seriously over-yeasted your dough. It takes time for dough to develop its flavor. If you have a first rise of an hour and a second rise of 30 minutes, you really haven't given the dough enough time to let its flavor develop (unless something else is going on, such as the techniques Reinhart promoted in his recent whole wheat book.)

 

How do I know how often to stretch and fold, and when I'm done? In classes, I have students stretch and fold every 30 minutes because we have to get the bread made. When I'm making bread in production, I tend to do a stretch and fold once an hour becasue it makes it easy to synchronize the batches. The longer timing also seems to work better, but the short cycles are also effective.

 

When we were baking commercially, my wife would go to the bakery with me and measure ingredients. I'd do a rough mix by hand and put the dough into a bus tub, cover it, and then put it on a rack. I could mix about 4 batches per hour. At the top of the hour, all the doughs that had been mixed and sitting for at least 15 minutes got a stretch and fold.

 

When do you know when the dough has been stretched and folded enough? It will tell you. Feel the dough. You'll know. Typically after 2 stretch and folds, the dough will be as nice as the stuff you get from most mixers. After three, it will be nicer.

 

Give both approaches a try, I think your shoulders will thank you,

Mike

 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Thanks Mike.  I used to bake years ago, but gave up because I found kneading wore me out.

 Looking back, I was using the standard UK bread recipes available then which were probably nearer 50% hydration than the 65% I use as my basic now, highly yeasted and using high gluten Canadian flour, very thirsty stuff.  So the dough was stiff and sturdy, and kneading very hard work.  Nobody ever suggested in home baking books that you could rest the dough between working it to make life easier, or make it wetter - in fact clouds of flour were the accepted way to go about it, so the dough just got dryer and dryer.  In fact kneading was suggested as a good workout for the upper body! And the resulting bread was often disappointing, tasting more of the yeast than the wheat.

Then back in the spring, looking for some info on line about rye bread, in particular the standard French bakery rye, I found so much info on sourdough, high hydration doughs, open textures, new folding techniques, etc. etc.  It was a revelation.  I would go so far as to call it an epiphany. I made my first starter in May, and off I went on my "journey".

So I don't think I would ever knead anything again.  I have no interest in baking the nice fluffy white bread I can easily buy from a bakers - it is delicious, but readily available, so why bother?  I want the kind of bread I would have to drive miles to get, and pay a fortune for. And it is only flour water and salt. 

Amazing :)

Lynne

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Interesting exchange, here. I haven't kneeded anything in a while... at least not in the classic sense. I love the stretch and fold (because I'm usually around all day or can easily plan) or the slap and fold which is less strenuous when dealing with doughs that can use some kneeding, or I can stop what I'm doing to stetch and fold.

Yah, the old fashioned bread dough... funny isn't it... how far we have all come!

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Jane, how do you keep the stuff from sticking all over you in the slap and fold?  I just can't seem to get it right...:( 

I've looked at the various videos and nobody else seems to have hands that look like they have more dough on them than there is on the table.

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I get it ALL over the place and bits fling off to the side. I show a picture of me doing it in my blog in the post about the Great Baguette Quest. I guess I just don't mind a mess (used to it with kids?) and little by little it really comes together. Now, I am talking about high hydration doughs. The lower hydration ones don't make such a mess. For really high hydration ones the folding in the bowl is really great and much less mess.

Jane 

Pablo's picture
Pablo

Hi Jane,

I'm new to this whole deal, so please bear with me.  When reading the recipe on your link, it appears that the only yeast is 1/8 teaspoon in the poolish, is that right?  And then the dough still rose within an hour or an hour and a half the next day when everything was combined?  The poolish, the autolyse (no yeast) and the remaining flour and water and salt?  This kind of blows my mind.

Paul

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Oh THANK YOU Paul!!!

The terrible thing about the blog is that I have to write the posts so quickly because of lack of time. I wrote this one in the last half hour of the girls' nap. So, inevitably I screw something up! Yes, there is 1/4 tsp of yeast in the final dough mix.

Jane 

Pablo's picture
Pablo

Thanks for the clarification Jane.  Your girls are so lucky to have a bread bakin' mom!

Paul

Janedo's picture
Janedo

And BOYS, I have those, too! :-)

Jane 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.

Those batards are gorgeous! I love your scoring, and the crumb looks perfectly wonderful.

BTW, last I heard, you had made my pain de campagne and liked the smell but had not cut it yet. I've been anxiously awaiting your judgement on the eating. Was it awful? Did Margot reject it? I can't stand any more suspense!


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

When I read "Beautiful bâtards", I can't help reading "Beautiful bastards".

The letters in French like â mean that at one time they were followed by an 's' as in English. Like "hôpital" "hospital"

 OK, so anyway!!! Drumroll......

It's all gone, but I do have some pictures. As I said, I'll do a write up on the blog, probably tomorrow. It's a wonderful recipe! Everyone loved it. I prefer this type of "baguette" (I did bâtards, like you) to a traditional one and I think I've become a rye addict.

Jane 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Yeah. I know about the "chapeau." I need to figure out how to easily use accents with my Mac laptop before I get in trouble.

I know you said you were going to do a blog entry on the pain de campagne, and I didn't want to rush you. I was just too impatient. Anyway, I'm really happy you liked it. :-)

I had some of the "Russian Rye" I made a couple months ago from KosherBaker's recipe. It had been frozen all this time. I ate it un-toasted with a little butter.

It is made without caraway and, as I recall, is about 50% rye. I actually liked it better than when it was fresh. It was really good. Some apricot jam on it was nice too.


David

Pablo's picture
Pablo

Hey David,

For the chapeau use option+i and then the character you want the chapeau over.  I'm on a MacBook as well.

Paul

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Please, what is option ?

Mini O

edit:  tried it, that's my alt button but it doesn't work, maybe because I have a German key board, my z and y are also switched. Thank you Pablo.

Pablo's picture
Pablo

Hi Mini O

First question:  what operating system are you using?  Windows or Mac?

Pablo

Also, if this helps, I had tried to reply to your question before but it ended up as a new post instead (oops), so here it was, in case you missed it:

At the bottom left of a MacBook (a portable MacIntosh computer) keyboard there are some keys, from left to right: function, control, option, and apple.  Option + i means to hold down the option key and then press the "i", then release both keys and press the key you want to put a hat on.  e.g. â ê 

If you were using a Windows based machine, it would be a different set of key strokes.

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I am eating the 40% rye (NO caraway!) as toast (I know, bad, bad toasting fresh bread... but I love the flavour it brings out and this little crunch. Butter, honey, then dipped in my huge mug of tea). It is heaven! And you are the person to thank for getting me in to rye, with all your rye blog entries.

But stupidly, I forgot to save some of the starter. Have to build another one from the white. I'll have to try KB's Russian rye. I remember the conversation you had about it. 

I was up at 5am making raspberry jam! I woke up and remembered I had just left the berries to macerate in the sugar and didn't even cover the bassine. Oops. So, I did it right away. I haven't had raspberry jam since I lived in North America and so it is very nostalgic for me.

Raspberry jam and rye? Nah!!! But Mike's bread... yes!

Jane 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

leave raspberries overnight with the sugar, brings out the flavour.  Won't hurt it a bit. 

I found rye flour...in 100g packages for $1.50...so that's $15 a kilo, wow.  I bought one to use as snuff for my starter if it needs a lift.   This is crazy!

Mini-o-steam 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Mini,

For apricot, I bring it to a boil, the leave it all night. I wasn't sure if just sitting there raw was OK. Thanks for reassuring me! I'll do it on purpose next time. It looks and tastes great! I cooked it until the foam disappeared + 10 minutes or so, so I guess around 25 min. How long do you cook it?

Why is rye so expensive? Is that just recently or all the time? Oh, I forgot, you are in Asia right now, aren't you? I was imagining you in Austria! :-)

Jane 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Once I heat it up, it goes into hot boiled jars. I cook it until it softly gels on a cool saucer. Some like it thicker some runnier, depends on how you want to use it. A little Vit C will keep it from turning brown or a bit of lemon juice. I also like the 3-1 and 2-1 gelatin sugar and follow the instructions on the package.

So far from what I've seen here in S.Korea, Rye is sold like a condiment, this 100g comes with a zip lock! It gets the royal treatment! It is rather tan with speckles and looks whole ground. No nutritional info, not even in Korean.

I found a store that sells everything for kitchens and restaurants, from small (me) to big (oar size scrapers & wooden spoons) I didn't even know a whip could me made XXXXXlarge! I found all kinds of toys. I warned my husband before we went in he might not get me out of there. I took a business car with me...

Mini O

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Mini,

I always put lemon in because it has the vitamin C and also hightens the taste of the fruit.

So, I ended up leaving 4kg of berries for 3kg 200g of suger + juice of two lemons to macerate all night in the jam pot (huge open pot), then the next morning I cooked it for around 25 min and in jars, then turned upside down. I don't use pectin because there's a lot in raspberries. The texture is perfect and the taste... incredible! 

Oh, if I was set loose in that type of store, I'd need a truck as well!

My new toy these days is my dehydrator and I'm making prunes today. 

Jane 

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Janedo commented:

Raspberry jam and rye? Nah!!! But Mike's bread... yes!

 

Someone in a forum I was in commented she grew up eating rye bread and nutella.  I tried it, and it was very nice.

 

Speaking of rye, did you see my new Bohemian Rye bread?  It is mentioned at  http://www.sourdoughhome.com/newbohemianrye.html and works very nicely.  It's not a in-your-face heavy Nordic or German rye (which I also enjoy), but a very pleasant lighter rye.

 

The caraway is optional, but even with the caraway, it's been announted with all manner of jams and, yes, nutella.

 

Mike

 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

toasted Rye with marmite.  for breakfast.

Oh yum.

Food of the gods (or the devil I suppose if you are of the Hate Marmite persuasion)

Nutella?  weeeelllll maybe -  if you are under 10? LOL

(edited to add:  or Italian of course.  Italians love their Nutella)

Lynne

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Well, I HATE marmite (yah, I'm one of those people, bad memories) and I don't like Nutella either. But I buy an organic hazelnut chocolate spread for the kids and they eat it on pretty much any type of bread. But I LOVE honey, this organic, light creamy honey with a lot of butter. When I smell rye bread, it actually creates some weird physical reaction, like some who smell chocolate or vanilla, I guess. I'd do anything to have it!

So, I'll definitely go see your recipe for the rye bread, Mike. I think I'll do a series on rye breads in the blog because the recipes are starting to pile up. Starting with David's bit of rye in the baguette... yum! 

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

My husband is the same.  No kisses if I have been eating Marmite ;)

 

and yes, honey, lovely creamy set honey, good on rye, but I think it might possibly be better on a fresh white baguette...

Pablo's picture
Pablo

I must weigh in for organic, crunchy peanut butter with fresh fruit on top, preferably nice ripe peach slices.  The juicyness of the fruit fuses with the inherent dryness of the peanut butter, transporting the toasted slice of fantastic bread heavenward.

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Funny you should mention that as I was telling my husband that I grew up on raspberry jam on peanut butter and he thought that sounded disgusting! He hates peanut butter and berries. Strange. Fresh peaches on peanut butter... OK, that sounds good... and with a bit of honey between the two? Ha ha!

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

In my brief foray into Atkins (very short - for who can live without bread????) I liked to spread cheese with butter, then Marmite then Peanut butter (had to be crunchy).

 Remembering this, I think it would be good on some nice toasted rye... :)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.

I am not that fond of peanut butter myself. But we make our own almond butter from dry roasted organic almonds. (My area is the major producer of almonds in the U.S..) This is my breakfast 2-3 mornings per week.

It is wonderful on toasted pain de campagne, SF Sourdough, baguette or rye (Light or dark. With or without caraway seeds.). A bit of jam on it is good. (Strawberry, plum and apricot are my favorites. Something tart.) I can't imagine honey being anything but delicious with almond butter, but I haven't tried it. I love the idea of topping it with fresh fruit, too! I have some delicious nectarines and a variety of plums to try at the moment.

The "recipe" couldn't be simpler: 1 cup of dry roasted almonds in a food processor with the steel blade. Process until the desired consistency. I like it just smooth enough to be spreadable, but still with crunchy pieces. I start checking it after it has started to form a ball in the Cuisinart. You can also tell because it cleans the almond skins off the wall of the bowl and starts making a different sound.

Keep refrigerated in a glass canning jar.

I can't tell you how long it keeps, because it is generally gone within a week.


David

Pablo's picture
Pablo

I guess I'm the peanut butter junkie here, but I could change!  That almond butter sounds very tempting.

peach toast topping

peach toast topping

Marni's picture
Marni

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here- I've enjoyed all this peanut butter talk- now I'm getting hungry.

A favorite from my childhood is a waffle with maple syrup, peanut butter, and sliced banana.  My kids think that's crazy and won't touch it.  One of my daughters loves almond butter mixed with a generous slug of honey.  It's a close cousin of candy.

Great idea with the peaches.

Marni 

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog

The first time I tasted Almond Butter I though to myself that Peanut Butter was garbage compared to the taste of Almond Butter.  That was when the Almond industry was coming up with other products to use Almonds for.  There was a time when I made Organic Almond Butter by the thousands of pounds so I am a bit biased towards it.  You can use Almond Butter just like Peanut Butter as far as I know.  Almond Butter and honey is delicious.  We never refrigerated our Almond Butter.  One time we "lost" a bucket for over a year and it still tasted good.  The only thing that the Almond Butter will do made with 100% Almonds is have the oil separate if you don't use it very often.  You just stir the oil back in and enjoy.

Pablo's picture
Pablo

"garbage" - that's a bit harsh, eh?

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog

It was a though to myself.  Yes it is a bit harsh but thoughts we have to ourselves are most revealing.  I have eaten lots of Peanut Butter since then.  I think that thought to myself reveals really how good Almond Butter tastes to me.  For most, people me included, it would be hard to imagine that there is something like Peanut Butter but tastes much better.  That is what Almond Butter does for me.

Pablo's picture
Pablo

I'm convinced.  I'll try it! 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Silly me, I have a whole jar of almond butter and hazelnut butter in the fridge. I made muffins with some two days ago! Never thought of putting it under honey on toast. Yum!!!!

We grow almonds here, too. I'll try and make it as soon as I replace my blender.

I like peanut butter and bananas, too! On waffles... OK!

I LOVE peanut butter mousse pie... but that's off topic.

Jane 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

OK, sold... with my favorite, creamy honey, it's wonderful!!!! (snack time here)

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

you........ American!

Lynne

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Me? American, Canadian and French passports. Lucky me!

And you?

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

With my warped sense of humour? 

And propensity for added "u"s...

godda be Briddish... Waddayathink?

Janedo's picture
Janedo

OK, I was slow on getting the joke. 

Hey, I had my nose in the British Good Housekeeping while I was outside with the kids this afternoon. I have a subscription. I get such a kick out of the clothing style. It is so odd for us Frenchies. There are a lot of Brits around here, but I don't really know them.

Speaking of butters, while I was outside with the kids walking around our property, my son said, "Hey, there are hazelnuts." It's already the season and there are a ton of them all around the tree. I really hate cracking nuts, but I guess I should try making some butter out of them.

Jane 

 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

you would make butter when you could make dacquois?

 strange girl... !

Janedo's picture
Janedo

The truth be told... I am very strange because I really don't like macarons parisiens (the ones with the flavoured ganache in the middle) and so dacquoise isn't my favorite either. I don't like candy and those pastries are way too sweet for me. BUT, I may just have to try a hazelnut dacquoise to see if the family likes it... a bunch of sweet tooths! Oh and I don't like anything praliné. I like nuts but not made into that cream. I don't like Paris-Brest, either. I guess I just don't really like many French pastries (and they gave me citizenship????)

OK, seriously off topic...

Jane 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Sandwich it with chantilly marbled with nutella...

Lynne

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Janie, your breads look amazing. I really like reading your blog and the more I read people's blogs and bread baking accounts the more I'm starting to wish that we would all include the problems that we have encountered and how we resolved them. I think that would be tremendously educational for all of us.

While we're on hazelnuts, I made hazelnut, chocolate cake from Pierre Herme's wonderful Deserts by Pierre Herme a few weeks ago. And it was amazing as all of Pierre's recipies. Just the right amount of sweetness and richness. I too don't like deserts that are too sweet. I can't recommend his books enough. And he uses nuts in almost all of his cake recipies, which is exactly what I do as well. And if you have extra hazelnuts, may I send you my address? :) :O

David. Trader Joe's has Organic Almonds right now for a very reasonable price. And my breakfast this Sabbath was Vermont Sourdough with honey and home made Almond Butter. A note on making almond butter. I had great difficulty making it with toasted almonds, but maybe that was just me.

Rudy

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Rudy.

I get dry roasted almonds at Whole Foods. They are not too darkly roasted, which I think is important. We make the almond butter in a Cuisinart. What was the nature of your "great difficulty?"

BTW, I had some of your Russian Rye (previously frozen) last week. It was wonderful. I think Jane has added it to her rye baking orgy list on my recommendation.


David

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

I love rye and rye breads. Maybe if enough of us spread the word more people will be able to enjoy this wonderful weed, for its true flavor. Yup it is a weed.

David I had to do my Almond Butter in the Cuisinart as well, since I don't want to buy those super expensive nut butter presses. The difficulty was that my mixture retained the flour consistency and never turned to "butter" when I toasted my almonds. So I went back to using raw.

Incidentally, Trader Joe's does not have organic almonds all the time, only when they are in season, and if memory serves me correct they are about half the price of what they are in Whole Foods. But you might want to verify my egregious claims. :) When I see organic nuts in Trader Joe's I buy a few packages and toss them into the fridge to use later in the year.

Rudy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Rudy.

It's possible you roasted the almonds too dark, but I think it much more likely you just didn't process them long enough. It takes a long time for the nuts to become "butter." I should actually time it next time I make it to give you a benchmark.

We should see the "new crop" nuts pretty soon now. I bought some walnuts for baking about 3 weeks ago, and they tasted "flat." We tossed them.

We keep bulk nuts in the freezer, but, if I kept a year's worth, there wouldn't be room for much else .... like bread.


David

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog

When I was making Almond Butter by the 10s of thousands of pounds we roasted the almonds at 350F for 12 minutes in a convection oven.  This roastes the Almond just enough to release the oils in it when you start making Almond Butter.  The Almonds didn't make butter very well if they were over cooked.  You also need to let the Almonds cool all the way down to room temprature before you make the butter.  Raw Almond Butter is even more difficult to make because the oils don't release as well.  We always had to run the Raw Almond Butter through the machine twice to make butter.  I think I'll do some testing to make small batches for home users and post it in the toppings forum.  You can use a microwave to roast Almonds in case none of you have tried it.

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Do you mean that you'd like to explain the problems that we encounter and not just our magnificent breads? :-) Do you have a specific example? That's one of the reasons I did the baguette photo thing. I would love to do a film about hand kneading difficult doughs. I have lots of ideas for my blog... but little time... and as it is a hobby and not a paid job, I can't take more time that the bit I find during the day when I don't have a bunch of other responsabilties.

Yes, I know that Hermés book. I don't have it but since lots of French bloggers do, the recipes appear in the blogs. I really love making cakes. My favorite is the Trianon that you can see here

http://saveursdefamille.canalblog.com/archives/2007/09/30/6379478.html

It has a genoise base, then a praline chocolate layer with these crunchy, thin wafers mixed in, then a thick ganachy mousse au chocolat. Deadly!

Yes, I'll be trying your rye soon!

Jane 

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

First, I want to make sure that I didn't sound ungreatful back there, and tell you and all the other bloggers from this wonderful site a huge gigantic Thak You. I totally hear you on the lack of time and am more than thankful for what is there. Following David's trail on Anis Bouabsa recipe I realized that you also have a blog here on TFL. :)

As far as exmaples I would not want to get too specific, just anything that strikes one out of the ordinary or worriesome. To post that and how it all turned out.

You are fortunate to be in France, where his (Hermés) books must be easily obtainable and don't need to be translated. Here in US he did a few books with Dorie Greenspan and a briliant job it was. However, the books are no longer for sale and I believe their value is actually going up on the used book market. :O :) And rightfully so.

I followed your link, and as breathtaking as that cake and the cut slice of it looked the picture  beneath eclipsed them both. :) You are quite blessed. Congratulations.

Rudy

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Oh, I didn't think you sounded ungreatful at all! I was just trying to clarify what you meant. I know that sometimes when blogging, I write things that have become maybe obvious to me, but not necessarily to others. I'm never quite sure what detail is needed. Readers range from novices who have only made bread in a bread machine, to master bakers, so it's tough to cater to everyone.

Thanks for your comments. Oh, and I put the link to the cake but forgot that Sean and Lou were at the bottom. Two of my little cuties!

Jane 

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Oh my, what's not to love..WOW!! I can't believe you have the time for 5 beautiful childen, your husband, 2 blogs, bake bread very day and I'm sure have a pet or two?Sometime, haha, if you have an extra 10-15 minutes..would you share that recipe?

PS..Framboise..are they really as big as they look in the pic? I've never seen them that large!! Chocolat et framboise..be still my heart!!    Betty

Janedo's picture
Janedo

OK, I also have three dogs... and a few cats, but the latter don't count because they only need feeding. But the WORST is that I don't have a dryer (by choice, electricity too expensive and not ecological, it's always sunny here)) and I hang all the laundry, then fold or iron. That's the third world for most americans, no?

I'll write the recipe up. It really isn't difficult, just time consuming. I don't know if you have the special wafer crackers for the second layer. I might just have to make it for Sean's birthday party tomorrow! Looking a the picture makes me want it!

Jane 

 

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

When you do write up the recipe (please don't think I'm being pushy.., whenever you get to it) can you describe the wafer crackers? I have a feeling, I'll have to find a substitute. Thanks Jane

PS..I knew you had to have a few pets!! No dryer with wash for 7 people??!! Oh my, you make me feel so lazy!! Hang, fold and iron? Well, OK..I fold and iron..but only for 2!! Are you sure there isn't a Ste. in from of your name...Ste. Jane?

 Betty

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Betty,

Oh, I had good intuition, I took a picture of the wafers!

I made the cake this morning and will post the recipe here as soon as I can since there is a cake section! I haven't decorated it, yet because it needs to set. I haven't decided what to do, yet. It is an adult cake but it has to make a four year old happy. I'm thinking maltezers, Mikados, hmmmm. I still have a few hours. 

The laundry is a very tedious thing because I have to do it EVERY day! And my husband wears button down shirts all the time.  And towels are never soft and fluffy, I miss that.

Jane 

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

I'm sure he loved his birthday cake!! How could he not? Ok..maltezers? chocolate malt balls? Mikados?? the only one I know is an opera :  )

Hope you had a great birthday party!

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Betty,

OK, I put the recipe in a blog entry. Can you let me know which ingredients can be found over there?

Paddyscake, Thanks for the nice wishes. Sean was tired, but he enjoyed the "party".

Jane 

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

I can't wait to see if I can emulate this beauty!! I will let you know which ingredients I can or can not find. By the by..I am Paddyscake!! My husband's name is Patrick..hence Paddyscake  :   )

Glad Sean had a great Birthday! I doubt he'll ever forget that birthday cake!! I bet he loved he sparklers!

 Betty

josordoni's picture
josordoni

See I knew you had to have American blood in there somewhere..

So close to that American flavour combination of peanut butter and jelly.

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

pricey stuff in the grocery store! I was picking up some organic natural PB at Safeway and I took a look at the Almond butter..$5.99 a jar!!! So really, all you need for almond butter is just almonds?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Almonds. See my "recipe," above. If you get raw almonds, you can dry roast them yourself. About 12-15 minutes in a 375F oven.

BTW, the organic dry roasted almonds we buy are shamefully expensive. I'm not even going to say what we pay for them. Well, it's way less than gasoline.


David

Pablo's picture
Pablo

At the bottom left of a MacBook (a portable MacIntosh computer) keyboard there are some keys, from left to right: function, control, option, and apple.  Option + i means to hold down the option key and then press the "i", then release both keys and press the key you want to put a hat on.  e.g. â ê 

If you were using a Windows based machine, it would be a different set of key strokes.

Pablo

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Bâtard, hôpital, hôte, côte d'azur.

It works for me!


David

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

The loaves, and the write up, looked good to me.  I never called the bread "French bread."  I also don't call my bread San Francisco Sourdough Bread.  I'm not in France, I'm not in San Francisco.  I usually say the bread was inspired by a French or San Francisco bread.

 

I left it a bit cryptic partly on purpose, and partly because I didn't have time to transcribe the recipe.  I thought it would mean more if you figured it out, and it is largely the way the recipe was stated in "The Bread of Three Rivers." 

 

When I sold the bread I named it for a local river, as  a nod to the original recipe, and to the local area.  It was called "Gunnison River Bread."

 

Your pictures looked good, and despite the nay sayer, I thought your crumb looked greatl  I usually do a boule on this one, and letting it rise longer is not a bad idea.  Increasing the hydration leads to a more open crumb too, if that's what you want.  

 

I did think the comments about "was it better than a sourdough rye" were a bit odd.  What's better, chocolate or vanilla?  They both have their charms, but they don't compare.  Same with the bread.  Some people like yeasted, some like sourdough, but I wouldn't want to say one was better than the other,  Sourdough tends to overwhelm the rich wheaty tastes that yeast allows to shine.  I like both a lot, for different reasons.

 

Oh, the blisters were probably not from water but from the chilled retarding.  Retarding the bread improves the flavor, but leads to blisters.  If you retard the first fermentation, the bread tends to not blister. 

Have fun,

Mike 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I'll call it Le Cady Bread as the little river than runs by my house runs in to that one about 500 meters from here.

Mike: It was definitely more fun to "design" a recipe around your explanation. And anyway, no bread can ever really be dot on to another made so far, far away, with different ingredients, different hands, etc. 

This would make a wonderful boule, I'll do that next time.

I do love sourdough but this bread, with it's more complex flavour, is a fantastic every day bread. It has enough flavour to be great on its own, but not too overpowering, so a perfect base for cheese, etc.

For many breads, I retard during the first fermentation. I haven't retarded the second since my fatal Reinhart San Fran. I noticed that Silverton likes retarding the formed dough. This was the perfect opportunity to try again. But, I'll give it a go retarding this bread on the first.  

Thanks for your input! I love this kind of challenge.

Jane 

 

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Hi Mike

 I did think the comments about "was it better than a sourdough rye" were a bit odd.  What's better, chocolate or vanilla?  They both have their charms, but they don't compare.  Same with the bread.  Some people like yeasted, some like sourdough, but I wouldn't want to say one was better than the other,  Sourdough tends to overwhelm the rich wheaty tastes that yeast allows to shine.  I like both a lot, for different reasons

I  agree, they are both good and both different.  i just wondered about Jane's personal opinion and maybe some comparison as to the differences between the two, i.e. moistness of crumb, crispness of crust, easiness of making, that kind of thing.  

 Lynne

sannimiti's picture
sannimiti

just surfing a little and this topic caught my eye! Though I'm still pretty young that's a childhood memory of mine, when we were on holiday with friends. For some reason we never had nutella in the house (though we weren't health food people) but every year on this particular holiday all us kids would live on -yes- dense dark german rye with butter and nutella. right, butter and nutella is absolutely overkill but i only like nutella with butter below...better than any cake i can think of!