The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Aftertaste

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ejs385's picture
ejs385

Aftertaste

My recent attempts with white whole wheat flour have resulted in a strong, astringent aftertaste.

Flour:  KA white whole wheat

Biga/Soaker per Reinhart Book

Instant yeast from half gone 1 lb bag

Yogurt or Buttermilk in soaker.

White breads do not have it.

Any ideas?

 

weh

 

 

 

 

Stringbean42's picture
Stringbean42

How old is your flour? Have you been keeping it refridgerated? Whole-Wheat flour (all whole-grain flours for that matter) have a tendency to turn rancid quickly if they aren't refridgerated. It also may be that, if you are using a large percentage of yogurt or buttermilk, the increased acidity is contributing to an unpleasantly sour aftertaste. In that case, it would be wise to use just a little bit of baking soda to balance out the acidity.

ejs385's picture
ejs385

It was a new bag from supermarket of KA flour and stored in good canister in pantry after opening.

 I am trying with red wheat flour today or tomorrow.

 Refrigerated bigas rose quickly.

 

 

 

 

 

holds99's picture
holds99

I didn't know KA white whole wheat was available in the supermarkets.  According to KA's website the purpose of white whole wheat flour is to remove the strong/astingent taste associated with whole wheat. 

Here's clip from KA's website re: their white whole wheat flour: Called "The new miracle flour" by First for Women: "Bakers rejoice! Now you can make all your favorite recipes with white whole-wheat flour. Recently introduced by King Arthur Flour, 100% Organic White Whole Wheat tastes milder than traditional whole-wheat flour but incorporates the three key components of whole grains: bran (packed with fiber), endosperm (full of protein) and germ (rich in vitamins, minerals and fiber)."

Don't know what happened to your flour.  Check the "last sell" date on the bag.

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

is available in the supermarkets here in OR. I use it alot in baking cookies, brownies, cake etc. by replacing white flour by a 1/3 to 1/2. It makes me feel a little better knowing I'm adding a bit of nutrition and fiber to the treats we eat. You know, like that nice whole wheat kaiser roll you put your 1/4 lb hamburger with bacon and cheese on     ;   )

holds99's picture
holds99

The White Whole Wheat isn't available at the supermarkets here in St. Augustine.  I keep waiting for KA to offer free shipping but they haven't done it for a while.  If they don't do it soon I'll have to place an order anyway. 

As you can well imagine, I'm using up flour at a pretty good clip designing and testing my new 16 inch bun for my Monster Burger.  It's a little known fact that they raise a lot of cattle down here Florida and there are some large cattle ranches in the south central part of the state.  So, I'm thinking I may enter my Monster Burger the Florida Beef Producers: "It's What's For Dinner" contest this year.  I'm thinking KA may want to jump on this thing with both feet (pardon the cliche) for some publicity.  You know...like a full page in Gourmet Magazine: "Delicious - Nutricious 1st Prize Winning Monster Burger bun made exclusively with KA White Whole Wheat flour" with a photo of me and some of the judges holding the platter containing the "Monster".  On second thought...maybe not.  Anyway, if I finish the contest "in the money" I'll post some pics of the awards ceremony. :-)

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

I'm thinking giant beefsteak tomatoes, you know the ones that are 5-6" in diameter...what's the record for a Sarasota sweets onion?..about the same, right? ;  )

ejs385's picture
ejs385

Today I baked two loaves of whole wheat, one using the White Whole Wheat mentioned above (Last of the bag) and one using a fresh bag of regular Whole Wheat (also King Arthur). I used a fresh packet of yeast.

I used the same generic simple recipe from the internet for both loaves.

The only difference seemed to be that the White Wheat seemed to hydrate more and required just a bit more flour.

After baking and cooling both loaves, I and my main tester (my wife) detected a touch of the astringincy that I found in my previous loaves in the white wheat loaf. The one that was made from the regular Whole Wheat did not. In fact it had a sweeter, rich nutty taste, quite good for a simple quick recipe.

I can only conclude that the White Whole Wheat flour is a least partially responsible for the taste. Its expiration date was 02/09/09. It is not the organic variety. I guess I should buy another bag to see if I just got a bad one but at this point am quite relluctant to do so.

Thanks for the comments.

 

ejs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

There was an article in our local paper re White Whole Wheat. The one thing I picked up was subbing the white whole wheat for about 1/3 - 1/2 of white AP flour to boost the nutrional value of your eats. I tend to skim when I'm reading (which has caused me alot of angst when I'm baking :  )... and have missed things. I'm wondering if White whole wheat alone may be causing the negative taste test. Maybe, try your recipe in the proportions suggested and see if you get the best of both flours... 

charbono's picture
charbono

This flour has been available in supermarkets in my area (northern Calif) for at least three years.

 

When I had room in the freezer and saw a bag less than 12-14 weeks old, I’d buy it.  (I never saw a bag less than 8 weeks old.)  I never had a problem with bitter or rancid flavor.

 

However, I don’t use the flour any more for yeast-breads.  It doesn’t have enough flavor, and the gluten strength is questionable.  I’m using up my last bag for quick-breads.          

 

For yeast-breads, I’m now using home-milled red wheat.  For quick-breads, I will be using home-milled white wheat, among others.

 

cb

newtobreadbaking's picture
newtobreadbaking

Hi, I'm new to bread baking. I've tried the organic KA white whole wheat in my only two attempts at bread baking. The first bread was kneaded and baked in my new bread machine (a Cuisinart convection machine, in case it makes a difference) the second, a rye bread, was kneaded and did some rising in the machine but I set it for dough only and took it out and attempted let it rise some more and then bake in my oven.

 

The flour was fresh. I had bought it the week before and stored it in the refrigerator and only took it out a few hours before I made the bread to allow it to warm to room temp. Both the totally machine made whole wheat bread and oven baked rye came out...well...weird. Neither rose too much and both had a not so great crust. The crust was really hard on the bottom making it difficult to slice and with the rye; it was no where close to the kind of crispy crust a bakery real Jewish rye bread has. That bakery style rye was what I was aiming for.

 

I used organic yeast that comes sealed in its own little packet and it has about a year to go on its expiration date for both breads. I used a packet (about 2 - 3 tsp) for each 2 pound loaf.

 

For the whole wheat that I made totally in the machine, I carefully followed the order of the recipe in the book that came with the machine. I used all KA organic white whole wheat flour and some vital wheat gluten.

 

For the rye I also carefully followed the recipe in the book. I used Bob's Red Mill organic whole grain rye flour and the KA organic white whole wheat and some KA organic AP flour and vital wheat gluten.

 

The finished rye that I used enough ingredients for the 2 lb not only hardly rose, it also weighed only a little over a pound when it was finished. I didn't think to weigh the first bread I made, the whole wheat one.

 

I have no idea what I did wrong or why my breads didn't rise and came out so itty bitty. I had planned to use the rye for sandwiches but the way it came out it would have been like using the slices of one of those cocktail ryes for at best hors devoirs size sandwiches.  

 

If anyone here has ever tasted "The Baker" brand organic whole grain rye bread, that's almost exactly what my bread came out tasting like, although quite smaller slices. That was not what I was aiming for. I was aiming for a bakery kind of NY Jewish style rye bread.

 

In my area organic bakery bread costs $7.00 a piece and that is wayyyyyy to much, which is why I decided to bake my own bread but as you can tell from my post, I'm doing a really lousy job at it. 

 

Does anyone have any idea where I went wrong and what I can do to get the breads full size and tasting more like bakery bread? 

charbono's picture
charbono

You might want to get a copy of The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book: A Guide to Whole-Grain Breadmaking, by Robertson.  The last revision includes bread machines.

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi newtobaking.

1. To improve the flavor of your bread you need to use some sort of a starter, poolish, biga or levain. A good bread recipe will include instructions on how to make one. It is usually made the night before. In case you are not in a posession of a decent bread book here is one to get you starter. Assuming you are going to bake a loaf that uses one pound of flour. Take a quarter of that weight, which I believe is 4 oz and add it to 4oz of water in which you have previously dissolved a 1/8 of a teaspoon of yeast. Let this mixture "mature" for 12 to 24 hours at room temperature and then use it.

2. To improve the lift of your bread you need to make sure your dough is not too dry. Use a scale to weigh your flour and water. And you also need to make sure that your dough had enough time to proof befor eit went into the oven. Last thing that affects the height of the dough is the heat of the oven and the amount of steam in it for the first 1/3 to 1/2 of baking time.

If you are still having problems start a new thread and post your recipe, procedures and weights in it so it is easier to see what went wrong where.

Good Luck.

Rudy

 

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi ejs.

I made pancakes with buttermilk once and they had a rather bitter aftertaste that I didn't care for. So I's say look into that rather than flour. 

The only flour that has produced a bitter aftertaste for me has been the Gold Medal All Purpose. I've tried both Organic and Non-Organic and both had a very distinct and lingering bitter aftertaste. Haven't tried Harvest King or Better for Bread yet. But I find threre isn't a need since the supermarkets now sell Organic flour for $2.99 for a 5lb bag.

Rudy

holds99's picture
holds99

Rudy,

With all due respect, I feel compelled to say that in addition to King Arthur I have used Gold Medal AP flour (Gold Medal USDA ceritified organic all-purpose and Harvest King) for years and have never had a problem with a taste or aftertaste in anything I have baked using Gold Medal.  Unless the flour is past it "last sell" date and going or gone rancid, it's usually added ingredients that cause an aftertaste (good or bad). In my opinion Gold Medal produces a very high quality product and the Gold Medal USDA organic AP flour is as good or preferable to King Arthur AP. 

As for cost, most brand name flour is, at at the present time, hovering right around $3.80 per 5 lb. bag here in North Florida.  I have also had good luck with Arrowhead Mill and Hodgson Mill flour, rye in particuilar. 

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi Howard, someone as nice as you could never offend me, even if you tried. :) So no disrespect taken. My gut feeling is that it might be something regional for me here in Los Angeles, or something weird and very peculiar with my taste buds. But the bitter aftertaste is very pronounced and quite distinct that even my average skilled taste buds can pick it up. And I've used the flour in many applications including bread and all of them had the bitter after taste. In fact when I first saw so many people praising Gold Medal flour on these forums I was taken aback. But then I realized it must be something unique to me or my region, so I just put it out of my mind.

Now Arrowhead Mills is by far my favorite flour, as they produce absolutely the most consistent flour flavor wise. More consistent than even Bob's Big Red Mill. I like Arrowhead Mills flour more than King Arthur flour. It is by far my favorite flour.

Rudy

holds99's picture
holds99

Here in Florida, particularly in the rural areas, we have a lot of folks that are on well water.  Because the water table here is low they sometimes install wells that are what we call shallow wells and there's a lot of iron in the water and that causes things to taste peculiar.  The water, over time, will actually turn the driveways and sides of houses orange where the yard sprinklers hit them.  So, I was thinking maybe it's something (chemical) in the water where you are located that may be reactiing with something (chemical) that's peculiar to a particular brand of flour. 

I agree with you about Arrowhead Mills flour being great flour.  I just used up a bag of their rye flour and it's wonderful.  We don't get much in the way of a selection down here other than King Arthur and the name brands like Pilllsbury and Gold Medal in the supermarkets.  The health food stores carry wider ranges of flours but they're in 3 lb. bags and very expensive.  So, I order the flour that I need for special breads from King Arthur and try to catch the free shipping offer when they offer it.  I considered Bob's Red mill but the shipping cost is more than the flour costs so that won't work. 

I purchase whole wheat 25 pounds at a time (keep it in the freezer) from Cable Mill in the Smokey Mountains (Tennessee) that Charlene and I visited on trip a number of years ago.  They mill the best whole wheat I have found to date.  It's expensive but I think it worth the premium they charge.  Here's a link to their web site that you may find interesting.

http://www.mysmokymountainvacation.com/historicbuildings/cable-mill.html

Lately, I have been doing some baking out of Greenstein's book and although his recipes require some level of experience to execute I really like the breads.  So far I have baked his Corn Rye Bread and Whole Wheat Oat bread and they're both winners.  I plan to post something on them in the near future.

Hope all is well with you and it's good to hear from you.  Hang in there and hope you figure out the after taste problem.

Howard - St. Augustine, FL

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi Howard.

To get around the high cost of flour I used to have my Health Food Store order a 25lb bag of Organic flour for me. I believe they come in 25lb and 50lb bags. The bulk flour that my health food store used was from Giusto's, which is outstanding. On par with Arrowhead Mills. That way the shipping was free for me. They received it for distribution as bulk. And I would come and pick up the whole bag. You just have to make sure that what they charge per pound is a good enough deal for you to take this route. Now that local markets carry a 5lb bag of Organic flour for $2.99 I don't need to do that any more. I just sit here and count my innumerable blessings, and try to say thanks fast enough. :)

As for the aftertaste, if your theory is true, that makes me wonder what is this "additive" that is in GM flour that the water reacts with that is not in any other flour. And do I want to consume it not knowing what it is. Although in the end, with the selection available to me I'm unlikely to be purchasing GM flour though. There's just no reason to. Especially since I use Organic flours pretty much exclusively.

Boy that book has been on my wanted list ever since David mentioned it a few months back. And now that you did, it's a must.

I'm really looking forward to your pictures and diary of the process so that I (and everyone else) can learn from them.

Thanks for everything.

Rudy

Marni's picture
Marni

Rudy, I also live in the LA area and have never seen any quality flour for such a low price.

Where do you buy it? I buy KA-AP at Trader Joes for 3.99 for 5lb. I also get my white WW there. That news about KA prices coming down has not hit my stores yet.

There is a distributer of KA flour in Vernon that offers four (I think) varieties. The prices are good, but I don't know if I want 50-100lbs of flour all at once!

Marni

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi Marni.

Not sure where in LA you are. But the Ralph's near me (WLA) has started carrying Organic All Purpose flour, a couple of months ago, in their in house packaging for $2.99. Last couple of weeks I've seen them attach a second price sticker to it that says $3.49 and next to it is a "sale" price of $2.99. :)

Additionally several Pavillions in LA and even San Diego sell and organic 5lb bag of flour for $2.99 and this one has Malted Barley Flour listed in the ingredients. I have been using this flour for a while now and it is quite good. I have not yet tried the organic flour Ralph's sells yet.

For my Whole Wheat flour I go to Whole Foods. They sell a 5lb bag of AP or WW for about $3.69.

HTH. Let me know if I can help a fellow Angelino more. :) I wonder how may of us from LA are here in this forum?

Rudy

Marni's picture
Marni

Rudy,

I'm also in the WLA area, I avoid Ralphs, but will check it out for those prices.  I go to Whole Foods regularly so I'll look for the flour there.  Thanks for the tip.  How great to get organic for less than non-!  BTW- do you go to the Whole Foods on Barrington?  It's got the best parking : )

 Marni

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Yup I use that one also. The one on Wilshire and about 22nd has even more parking so sometimes I go to that one. The Pavillions is also on Wilshire and just west of Barrington.

And to make this useful for the rest of the country. Ralph's is owned by Kroger and share their inventory. Whereas Pavilions is owned by Safeway which also owns Vons and shares all their inventory.

Rudy