The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

corn-rye bread

  • Pin It
sparks's picture
sparks

corn-rye bread

Hi to all of you who make Greensteins corn rye bread.

I have temporarlly stopped making this bread, because I could not find a way to stop the knife from gumming up while slicing it the next day. There is a way of stopping the knife from gumming up, but I have not found the way to do it. If any one accomplishes this, I sure would like to know how you did it. I tried everything imaginable with out getting the results that I wanted. I remember seeing corn rye breads in corner grocery stores many years ago in 5 to 8 pound round loaves,  which they sold by the pound, and they did not get the knife gummed up to slice it. Keep me posted if someone should ever solve this problem.

Sparks

Comments

staff of life's picture
staff of life

Is it fully baked?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Corn rye is an incredibly wet bread. It takes way longer to bake than any other bread with a similar loaf size. Count on well over an hour. Maybe closer to two hours, including drying in the oven after you think it is fully baked.

I haven't baked corn rye for too long. I might bake it this weekend. If so, I'll report my results.


David

sparks's picture
sparks

I baked it until the center of the bread reached 217 degrees,about 2 hours of baking it. let me know  how your corn rye comes up when you bake it over the weekend, or next time you bake it. Thanks.

Sparks

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

should have set it enough to have no problems. Now what? Could it be that the dough is so wet that it crossed the line into pudding?   If it is gooey...maybe lacking in bubbles... what does the bubble structure look like?   Maybe it needs to ferment a little more before shaping, but that is only a quess.  How long did you develop the sour in the rye sour?   Less water? Hardly.   Pictures?  I was looking at the RECIPE  and don't know where the goo lies.  Try using a little coarser rye flour.  

The word "Corn" in the recipe just won't let me go.  I know of many "corn" labeled breads and buns and they all have a whole wheat look about them with lots of various flakes and grains and seeds.  So why would this be so different?  It might tend to loosen up the structure a bit.  Just a thought... 

Mini O

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Rye that sticks to a knife a day after cooling and setting is under-baked. I use a stainless steel candy thermometer to check inside temp. It should reach 180°F or 82°c just for the rye alone, 205°F or 98°c  for the wheat.   The heavier or wetter it is, the longer it takes.  But the wetter, the better so heck.  Cut it up and throw it back into the oven for doggie biscuts.  They will love you for it. 

Now if I had that loaf... And you know that I'm going through rye withdrawal,  I'd throw it into the blender with some water and yeast, work in some white flour, spices and a little salt and make more loaves.  But I haven't so I can just dream....and dream....and dream.

Mini O

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The term "Corn" in "Corn Rye" or "Jewish Corn Bread" does not refer to our (American) usage of the term for the grain referred to in Europe as "maize." As Mini Oven speculated, the term derives from the German term, "Korn," which is a generic term for grains (wheat, oats, barley, rye, maize, etc.) How the term attached to this particular bread is unknown to me, and I cannot recall ever encountering a real explanation.


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Sparks.

Well, I baked Greenstein's Corn Bread today. It was the first time I actually made it with white rye. I followed the recipe, but never got the dough to come away from the (KitchenAid Accolade) bowl. I did add an extra half-cup or so of flour. I think I should have added more. The gluten was very well-developed, but the dough was super gloppy.

Anyway, I baked the loaves for 1-1/4 hour. The internal temperature at the end was over 210F. I cooled the bread for about 2 hours then cut one loaf. Would you believe? It gummed up the knife! Not too badly, but it was gummy. Now, the interior of the loaf was still warm, but I think I should have baked it another 20 minutes. On the other hand, the crumb did not look wet or uncooked. The chew was custardy. The taste was wonderful.

Here are some photos:

Jewish Corn Bread

Jewish Corn Bread

Jewish Corn Bread Crumb

Jewish Corn Bread Crumb


David
sparks's picture
sparks

Hi David

Thanks for the reply, it is most appreciated. Let me know how it is on the next day, if it still gumms up the knife. As I have said I have tried everything that I could think of, such as more flour, less water, more mixing, less mixing, hotter oven, cooler oven,I ran out of ways in which I could think of to stop the knife from gumming up. My bread came out looking like your picture, nice inside crumb, taste very good. I have mixed one dough so much, about 30 min. that I had to throw it out, it became stringy, I tried to get it to clean the side of the bowl, but it never happened. Thanks again, let me know if it still gumms up the knife tomorow.

With Best Regards

Sparks

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Sparks.

Eric had a suggestion that I'd meant to try but forgot. He suggested holding back some of the water and mixing until the gluten was well-developed, then adding the rest of the water.

I hope to remember to do this next time. Maybe I better write myself a note and put it with the recipe.

I wish Norm (nbicomputers) was back on TFL. He has professional experience with corn rye that, I bet, would give us the "real" solution to this problem.


David

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi David

   I saw that a while back to hold back some of the water to get better development, then after developing the dough add the remainder of the water. I tried that a few months ago, it still gummed up the knife the next day and the day after also. I have alot of bread & rolls in the freezer at the present time, but in a week or so when my freezer empties out I will give it another try to get it right. Thanks David, I will get back in touch with you when I make it again.

Best Regards

Sparks

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Hi,

I don't have access to the recipe for this bread, but after looking a this conversation and David's first blog entry, I'm really curious. Since, I have entered my "rye stage", I'd love to have the recipe. Could someone please post it?

I've got the freshener ready for the three stage 80% rye from "Bread". Wish me luck!

Jane 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Up in Sorry Sparks, 217° Look for highlighted RECIPE and click on it. :)

Mini O

or click on this

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4879/greenstein039s-corn-rye-bread#comment-24623 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.

Corn rye is sort of an "ultimate" rye lover's bread. You have said your family is not fond of rye. You might want to start with a light rye like the one in Hamelman or the Silesian light rye in Leader's "Local Bread," if you have that book. I found Reinhart's deli rye in BBA to not have enough character, but you might look at that too.

If you make Hamelman's 80% rye, as you plan, that should be a good test. Let us know how it goes.


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

They like rye, they just hate the carraway seeds. So, I'll just omit them in any recipes. Is that sacreligious?

Jane 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Omitting caraway seeds is not sacrilegious. Now, ham and cheese on Jewish rye. That's sacrilegious.


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Uh oh, because that is exactly what is likely to happen here.

The 80% is out of the oven and since one of them was a little deformed... well, I cut it (bad me, bad me). I just couldn't wait 24 HOURS. I know the taste and texture will develop but after three days of waiting, I just had to see if it was at least a bit of a success. I really like it. I'll try and post some news tomorrow when I can officially cut.

Jane 

Windischgirl's picture
Windischgirl

I was at a work Christmas party a many, many years ago, standing next to a elderly colleague who was eating ham and cheese on rye with mayo.

He was Jewish.

He was dressed up as Santa Claus.

And I thought I was confused!

 

 

Windi

Philadelphia PA

Rosalie's picture
Rosalie

I wrote in my blog that I made German Sourdough Rye from a Tom Jaine recipe ("Making Bread at Home").  He suggests that maybe you have to wait TWO days for the bread to be ready to slice.

Rosalie

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I had a sandwich for lunch made with the corn rye I baked yesterday. There was no gumminess when I sliced it! It tasted even better than yesterday.

Rosalie's recommendation may just be the answer to the gummy crumb problem. Resist cutting the loaves for 2 days, or even one day.

Thanks!


David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that wouldn't mail out or deliver its rye loaves until they were 2 days old (or was it 3?).  Maybe that's the reason.  One loaf cut too soon, gumming up the works, and BANG! there goes their reputation.... Gosh, wasn't that a comment on Country Boy's search for the "perfect" light rye?

Sparks, don't let this gummy loaf gum up your reputation, we know you can bake!  Just hide it for two days,  slice and take credit.  I do know that freezing a loaf in this fresh stage can result in a block of bread, slip some transparent wrap between the slices before freezing if you want to thaw them out one piece at a time.  Takes only a few minutes and reduces the number of screwdriver marks in a counter top.  Just a thought.

Mini O

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi Mini O

   I appreciate your idear, and it sound like to me that is a way of getting around it. I would still have to wash & dry the knife after each time I slice it, that is what I want to eliminate.  But I like to do things the old fashioned way, to me its a challange to get to the bottom of it, and eliminate the problem on the next day or day after, and get  a smooth cut without gumming up the knife. Their is a way of doing it, but unfortuneatly I have not found it yet. Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts. I will try again in a week or so.

Best Regards

Sparks

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You're right! Why didn't I think of that?  I got another idea...what about cutting the moist sticky loaf with a guitar string?  With maybe twigs or large buttons on the ends for strength?  Wrap the loaf with the string and cross over then pull cutting off a slice.  Less surface area to gum up and no knife to clean up!  But I think Norm's technique should create a dryer loaf.  I know that in the bakery, a sliced loaf is done on a machine with wires (or very fine saw blades) all lined up, like a wire cheese cutter, cutting the entire loaf at one time.  ???  Got a giant cheese cutter?  Hack saw?

Mini O

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Every kitchen should have one.


David

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

since i have been ordered back to work ;)

most juish corn bread is made with 100 percent white  or light rye. the dark or med types are jus to heavy in flavor for corn because of the hy percent of sour base to clear flour 100 percent sour to flour thats pound for pount

with that much sour the dough is very soft and will not come clean from the sides of the mixer

most books i have sen for the home baker says to put the dough in a bowl or bucket of water and wait for the dough to float to the top

that is as far from the trurh as you can get

we would put the dough it to a wood box that was very wet with water but just that wet not enough to make the dough float

a soft dough in a bucket of water would absorb even more water and becom unhandelable(sp)

when ready we would wet thw dough the top of the dough by dipping our hands in water and shaching the water off our hands on to the dough

with wet hands gently round the dough into loafs without knocking out the air

and again gently lifting the loaf with wet hands and placing it on the peel covered with cornmeal and then into a hot 420 452 oven with steem but no additional proof which is why you must not knock out thwe air when shaping

i think i posted my corn bread formula a while back but if you can't find id ill post it again 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Norm's formula for Jewish Corn Bread, along with his descriptions of how this bread was made in the bakery, can be found in the following thread:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6103/craving-crackly-crust-sour-rye-bread

Note that this thread also has Norm's formula for Jewish Sour Rye and some other rye formulas. Lots of interesting information.

The question of when Corn Bread is ready to slice is not addressed. Maybe Norm will add his wisdom on that particular question.


David

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

all bread is made the first thing in the day for just that reason.  by first thing in the morning i mean that the last of the big bread would be comming out by 3 or 4 in the morning.

corn bread would be out of the oven as early as possable, so if a customer wanted it sliced in the electric slicer we could do it. Corn bread would need as least 6 or 7 hours of cooling time . We would push that in the bakery by first doing a pre cooling in the coldest part of the shop with large fans and then putting the pread in a holding pen that was at about 50 degrees not fridg temp but cooler that room temp.

even then after 6 hours of cooling the electric bread slicer would have a tough time corn bread should age 12 hours at least my opinion and 2 cents worth

ps: get a VERY SHARP serated knife like a henkels eversharp a regular bread knife woun't do it and not thouse cheep ones ...the blade is so thin it has to much flex in it and when you try to cut the blade will fles and your slice will never come out right

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

That is very helpful and reassuring information. I hope the others who have struggled with slicing their corn bread too soon read this.

Jeff Hamelman, in "Bread," says the higher percentage of rye in a bread the longer you wait to slice it - up to 72 hours.

I made a rye with flax seeds yesterday. It is 60% (medium) rye, almost all in a sour. I sliced it after about 4 hours cooling. It was pretty good. This morning, I had some un-toasted, thinly sliced with a little butter. It was fabulous tasting. Much, much better than last night.

I hope all is well with you. I'm really happy to see you back on TFL!


David

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi Norm

I must admit I find your discussion very refreshing, I am a retired bakery owner (50 years  experience)  I owned bakeries in Northern New Jersey for 37 years. You bring back many fond memories about the Altos, that was my first job in the bakery, working as a porter after school in Borutas Bakery in Wallington New Jersey. Mixing the rye sour by hand, I hated that job, rye flour made me sneeze. I will try making your corn bread when I get back to Florida, my mixing machine died on me a few weeks ago, when I get a new one in a few weeks I will try it. I have made Greensteins corn rye many time, It looks good, taste good but slicing it gumms up the knife, even baking it to 217 deg. in center, and slicing it 2 days later did not help. I tried everything but could not stop the knife from gumming up. I saw this bread in only one bakery out of the many 29 that i have worked in, Modern BaKERS In Hackensack N.J. in 1949. In the years I spent in the trade, I have made lots of rye bread but not corn bread, I have asked many demonstrators from flour companies or yeast companies, they never herd of corn rye bread. I have a gas oven, so when making bread or rolls with steam, I turn the oven off when I put the bread or rolls in the oven for the first 5 minutes, then I turn the heat back on. I do this because I find that the open flame sucks the steam and dries it out immediately, but i start with a hotter oven. Keep talking I enjoy reading what you have to say.

With Best Regards

Sparks

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

They were fun days and boy do have stories.

ig you need any formnulas lit me know i have hundreds and then som but i am sore you jhave planty your self.

now im in the computer biz.  could not just do nothing and since my legs gave out i had to some thing i could do sitting down which rules out baking.  to bad that was my first love and boy do i miss it. every year i work in my house for my wife and son and my work bench turns indo a display case. along with breads and cakes and pastrys i take out the old cookie formulas and by the time x-mas is here there must be 30 to 40 pounds of cookies and other minatures. you would think im back in the shop.

sorry is the spelling sucks its about 5 in the morning and i am typing in the dark.

hotbred's picture
hotbred

 Seems like ,the rye is sticky  sticky when done   & the nexd day .  I think I remember  there were 6 holes in the rye  three when you put it in the oven [sharp dowel]  after or when u thought it was done  stick it 3 more times  give it a few more min,  to dry out alittle more   twenty min ?  remember the holes in the top aleast 2 or3 holes

hotbred's picture
hotbred

   Sparks! I remember working in Bergenfield bakery in nj  pulling out the rye  burning my fingers squeezing them to see if the rye was Baked

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi, I owned a bakery In Tenafly and Wyckoff, N.J. I have heard very good remarks about  the Bergenfield Bakery, glad to hear you worked in a very good bakery.

Best Regards

Sparks

hotbred's picture
hotbred

   people have stainless steel knives  heavy  big  deep serations   used for cutting Bagles   thats what u need for cutting fresh baked bread . I have one , stand a chicken on its head on the board  you can slice it nicely in half  right through the breast bone  Cuts anything  & the bagles