The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Pane Siciliano - from BBA

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MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Pane Siciliano - from BBA

Count me in. It will probably be toward the end of the week however, Maybe Wednesday or Thursday at the latest for me. I want to take another shot at Pain de Campagne tomorrow.

I have both durum and semolina flour and and notice the recipe says you can use either. I'll use whichever you don't want to try.

Anybody else wany in on this experiment? I know you'd be welcome.

Mary 

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Mary, that was the first recipe I tried from the BBA and I remember that the loaves were fully proofed when I took them out of the refrigerator. Delicious bread and I would like to try it again - but not for a while because we are finally getting some summer weather and it's too hot to bake. Maybe later in the week, A.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Mary, I'm trying to decide when I'm going to embark on this. If I start the recipe any time before Wednesday, I'll have to bake it before I go to work, because if I wait until after I get home the loaves will probably have overproofed. On the other hand, if I'm incorrect in my assumption that they'll be fully proofed right out of the refrigerator, I'll have to bake them underproofed because I've got to get to work. Refrigerating the shaped loaves is also going to be a logistical challenge, because my refrigerator is stuffed to the gills. I'll work something out though.

I've got semolina. Use whichever type of flour you want, but it will be a more controlled experiment if you use semolina too. 

And if anyone else wants to play, the party is wide open. 

AbbyL

wadam's picture
wadam

This is a brilliant bread.  One of my favorites from BBA.  I would highly recommend it.  Though I'm currently working on experimenting higher hydration breads, so I probably won't be baking any more of this for a little while.

fancypantalons's picture
fancypantalons

Yup, this is the first bread from the BBA I attempted, as well.  Just for reference, here's a shot of the crumb I got (for the record, this is also the first batard I've ever put together):

Pain de siciliano crumbPain de siciliano crumb

The crumb was certainly more open than the pain de champagne, though I found it was a bit more chewy.  I also found it was more salty than I liked, so if I bake this one up again, I'll probably cut down the salt level (for the record, I found the same was true of the pain de champagne, too).

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Abby, I'm going to bake it Thursday or Friday, and I will use the semolina. You do yours when you can and we'll compare.

I don't have any plans for the weekend, so I could hold off a few days, but I will run out of bread for me by Friday. I did re-do the Campagne today and had the same results, so I am convinced it's not us.

Mary 

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

I'd love to try this bread along with you guys. I'd been eyeing it for a long, long time. It'll probably happen for me on the weekend, Friday or Saturday. I'll be using Bob's Red Mill semolina.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I think I'm going to start the pate fermentee tomorrow night because I think the timing will work best for a Wednesday morning baking. I've got KA AP and bread flour and Rob's Red Mill semolina. Unfortunately I probably won't post pictures because I still haven't replaced the battery in my digital camera, which I really don't know how to use anyway. But I'll provide the best verbal description I can. I'm going to try that interesting coil shape. It's very pretty.

Mary, I'm glad your second set of results for the pain de campagne supports our initial findings. Somehow I've been very invested in finding out how this bread is supposed to turn out. I wonder what pain de campagne is like when the French make it in France?

AbbyL

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Ok, we're on for sometime during the week. Good.

I will try to strong arm my kid who lives in France to get some yeast and bread flour and give it a shot, Abby. She's doing Weight Watchers, however, and is loathe to start baking because she loves bread and is afraid of overeating. But I suspect she can be persuaded in the "interests of science.". I'll let you know.

Re the shaping -- I may chicken out or I may not. Depends on how the dough feels in my hands.  

Mary 

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Mary, if you are worried about shaping the "s" shaped loaves, don't! They were really fun to shape and looked so good. The only thing I wasn't so thrilled about was the way the sesame seeds fell all over the place after the loaves were baked. I slightly overbaked them and didn't care for the taste ( of the seeds) - this time I will be more careful. I thought that my crumb wasn't good but when I checked it looked about the same as the picture in the BBA. Hmm, maybe you are talking about shaping a different bread? I'm easily confused, A.

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Yes, you do have the right bread, and thanks for the encouragement. Funny, the seeds hadn't even registered on my consciousness. I'm glad to hear that the dough was easier to shape than I have anticipated, and glad for the warning about overbaking the seeds. Onward! 

Mary 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Forgive me for getting off topic, now that we have moved on to pane Siciliano, but here's a picture of a pain de campagne that has the crumb of my dreams. Just when I was feeling all good about myself and stuff.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/teenytinyturkey/2507020554/

Abby 

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I don't think you are off topic, and I was glad to see the pictures. That's more or less what my most recent crumb loooks like -- my holes may be a little smaller but not much, however, they are not even remotely well distributed. The loaf starts out round and becomes oblong under the ss bowl. It's very hard to see if you are getting the bowl symmetrically in place over it, and it appears that the closer to the bowl the hotter the bread bakes, so the loaf is pulled in that direction just a little, and that is where the big bubbles go. Not that it matters -- the asymmetrical shape looks hand crafted! And not that it affects the taste, either. It's great toasted.

Daughter Elizabeth in France has taken the bait and we will see what she comes up with.  

Well, on to the Siciliano. I have been intrigued with that shape since I got my hands on the book.

Mary 

 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Sorry if it seemed that I was claiming that picture as my own. I was searching the web for pictures of the interior of BBA's pain de campagne, and I found that one. It's nicer than my bread.

I need to try your big stainless bowl technique again. I tried it once and burned the heck out of my arm. Still have the scar. 

AbbyL

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

I tried baking under a bawl last week, and the oven spring is indeed fenomenal, but the crust seems to end up quite rubbery. I wanted to call it chewy really bad, but rubbery is a better description, unfortunately.

Rudy

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Hi, Rudy:

How long did you leave the bowl in place? The general idea is to leave it 15 to 18 minutes out of 35 to 45; just the same period as you would keep steaming by any other means. So less, proportionatly for a shorter bake. Then take it off and finish with a temperature of 425 or so.Other than that, I can't help except to say that my crust isn't at all rubbery -- or even chewy.

Maybe someone else can chime in here???

Mary 

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Yup that was precisely the time I left the bawl on. Closer to 18 minutes than 15. I'd say around 17 minutes. And after that another 20 to 25 minutes uncovered at 425.

What is the texture of the crust you are getting? Is it the same as it is without the bawl?

Rudy

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I would say a very slight bit softer than without the bowl, but not by much. Still crisp enough to crackle as it cools on the rack, and crisp the next day unless it is put into a plastic bag. Then not much will save it, of course.

Another factor might be initial heat; I preheat to 500 degrees usually, and either drop it to 450 or 425 once I put the bread in or after five minutes, depending on what the recipe calls for. I sort of "guess" if it wants extremely hot, real hot, or just hot. That might make a difference, or it might not. Then I try to end up with what the recipe calls for toward the end. 

I have to say that if it doesn't work for you and spraying the oven or the pan of water or ice cubes does work, than skip the bowl. I have a gas oven, and spraying or the pan route don't do much because it comes right out the vents. And I'm not going to even think about blocking the vents. It cost us $175 to get the oven repaired in January, and I don't want to pay that again anytime soon, especially if it's avoidable. This is why I like the covering method -- it's what works for me, my oven, and my goals. So much of baking is an art, not a science, that something like this is a "try it and see" situation.

How is your crust the next day? Does it dry out or improve any? Or is it still "overly chewy"?

Mary 

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi Mary.

Boy what a perfect statement, about bread baking beeing an art form. I mean it is a marvel and a wonder, that something seemingly so basic and simple can be so intricate, sofisticated and subtle.

I too have a gas oven. I removed the bottom "shelf" that separates the heating/gas element from the oven chamber. :) :O And I purchased a 2 cup stainless steel bawl at the .99 cent store, which I fill half way up and place directly on top of the  heating/gas. This way the water lasts through the warm up period and until about the first 15 minutes of bake time. I preheat my oven to about 450F for about 15 minutes. However, instead of a baking stone I have a cast iron flat top griddle, that is the size of the oven rack in there. And once that thing heats up nothing can cool it down. :) In fact if I'm not careful it does burn the bottoms of my loaves. :(

As far as my crust, it was indeed thinner, and there was some crispiness to it, but it was much more chewy than when i bake the bread without the bawl. I left on my cooling rack for a couple of days and the crust stayed about the same. After that it went into a plastic bag, to be reheated in the toaster oven.

In the end you may be right again, perhaps it is just a matter of taste. As much as I enjoyed the spectacular rise of the bread under the bawl, it could be that that particular texture of the crust is not for me.

Rudy

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I have shaped and refrigerated my three pane sicilianos (wish I knew how to form the plural in Italian), and they look very promising. It was a lot of fun making the opposing-spiral shapes. So pretty. I can't wait until I can put them into the oven and see how they turn out. Even unbaked, the dough smells really good.

AbbyL

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

I believe plural of siciliano is sicilianis. Perhaps someone who is actually Italian can give us a hand here. :)

Rudy

P.S. I hope your camera has batteries in it now. :)

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I will have to create pictures with words.

And one of these days, I'm going to have to learn how to use my camera.

Does Italian have noun-adjective agreement, so that if the noun is plural, the adjective also has to be plural? French does, so I expect Italian would too. 

AbbyL

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

The free internet translation insists that it is Pane Siciliani for Sicilian Breads, so I'm staying with it. :) Until an Italian walks by here. :)

Had you lived in Los Angeles I'd drive over and put the batteries into the camera. :)

Rudy

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Hi AbbyL and other P.S. bakers - so you have mixed and shaped yours and I hadn't even made my pate fermentee until seeing your post reminded me. It is now sitting out in my only slightly warm kitchen for an hour. I was busy with grandaughters today, swimming lessons and Monopoly on my front porch. More with them tomorrow but I'm hoping to mix and shape the dough after lunch and bake on Thursday. I dug my durum flour out of the freezer and it is Bob's Red Mill "#1 Durum Wheat Semolina Flour" - is that what you used? I have a camera and can take soso pictures but I have yet to manage to post any. Not from want of trying. I'll be interested to hear whether your loaves fully proofed in the refrigerator. I'm hoping I have gained enough knowledge from TFL to cope with them whatever stage they have reached, A.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Not only did my pane siciliano proof in the refrigerator, but it over-proofed. (Today at work I'm going to nail down exactly what the plural is.) It's warm in my house, since it's summer in the mid-Atlantic region. The conditions are not as brutally hot as they could get, but there's a lot of yeast in this bread and it rises very, very fast in 80 degree temperatures. The bread smells wonderful as it bakes, but I have a feeling that the results aren't going to inspire me to run out and get a battery for my camera and figure out how to post the pictures.

AbbyL

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Was planning to do the pate fermente last night but a migraine precluded that. Tonight for sure. So I will be a couple of days behind you, Abby.

Sound good, though, and I'm delighted the dough was handleable. We'll see how it goes for me, shaping it tomorrow.

Just to avoid the "plural" problem, I am going to halve the recipe and bake one big loaf.

Today I have promised to bake hot dog and burger buns, and start something for my husband's lunch loaf. I think he is getting Artisan in 5 minutes type bread. My fridge is going to be full, full, full.

Mary 

 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

The crumb I produced was a sandwich bread consistency, certainly because the dough over-proofed in my 80 degree kitchen and continued to rise too fast in the refrigerator. If I'm going to bake this bread during the summer, I'll have to keep the dough cooler during its first rise before shaping it, since it was busting out of my proofing bucket in a very short amount of time. But it's a wonderful tasting bread, even if it didn't come out exactly as I hoped, and I'll make it again.

Handling and shaping the dough really was fun and not at all difficult. 

I forgot to find out the plural for pane siciliano!

AbbyL

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

AbbyL, this turned out to be another warm day so I used cool water and didn't let the pate fermentee fully warm up. My Bosch did a good job of incorporating the chunks into the dough - seem to remember it taking ages by hand? I tested and the dough temp. was just about right, but it doubled in less than one hour so I shaped two loaves and used the other third for breadsticks. They are baking but the loaves are chilling until tomorrow. Maybe I will need to bake them at the crack of dawn if they overproof - did you bake your loaves straight from the refrigerator? Fingers crossed, A.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

But they had already overproofed by then. Next time I bake this bread while it's warm, I'll add the pate chunks while they're still cool and use cool water, as you did. I didn't check my dough temp, but obviously it was too warm.

I was having a problem with my Kitchenaid while I was combining the dough. The dough kept climbing up my dough hook up toward the guts of the machine. I kept stopping the machine and pushing the dough back down the hook. That extended the time I was working the dough, and eventually I just finished the kneading by hand. That might have added to the warmth of the dough.

When I got the loaves into the oven, they deflated a little, then grew back to their refrigerated size, but not larger. Oh well. My daughters really loved this bread.

Abby

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Well, I've gotten a few bits of advice (or one big one anyway) from Annie and Abby. Namely, keep it cool. Maybe the second bit is "Keep an eye on it, it'll try to get out of the pan." Ok, ladies, I hear you.

I have the fermente ready and will mix this afternoon, then refrigerate. I think I will seek out the coolest part of the fridge and maybe even turn it down a little. At the very least I will put a thermometer in the fridge to see how cool it really is.

I am finding it interesting that both these breads from BBA that we have tried have been very active with what seems to be minimal yeast. Time for a spread sheet and some percentages on the actual amount of yeast compared to flour. as I am really curious to see whether this is just conincidence or whether it's nothing unusual at all. Maybe it just seems like a small amount of yeast.

Rainbowbrown, are you baking with us? How's it going for you?

Mary

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

You baked Pani Siciliani. This is straight from Giovanna who is a native of Italy but who works in France with my daughter. So now we know!

Mary

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

I'm in your boat Mary. I mixed the pre ferment last night, will mix the dough today and bake tomorrow in the morning. Good thing I'm an early riser and it's a good thing I live in northern California where it is still quite cool. I'll be sure to take my temps and record all my times. Oh and while I am in your boat, Mary, I'm also doing half the recipe. I think I'll make two small Pani Siciliani. :)

Abby and Annie, how did shaping go for you? And did the form itself hold through after baking? Thanks for the tips ladies.

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

My loaves just came out of the oven, and I have a few comments. First, they were definitely overproofed when I took them out of the refrigerator this morning. I'm afraid I don't do 5am ( being retired!) so it was about 9.15am when I put them into the 500* oven straight from the fridge. Peter says the dough should be like French bread dough, and my pate fermentee and the final dough were what I think he means, tacky but not sticky and quite firm. They shaped well but by this morning they had spread quite a bit which is what I remembered from the last time I made them, another reason for making two and using the other third for breadsticks. I threw in the cup of hot water and did the three sprayings at 30 second intervals and reduced the temp. After 12 minutes they were browning fast so I reversed the pan and lowered the heat to 425* and after 10 more minutes they registered 204*. The loaves don't have the sheen of the ones in the BBA, and the blistering is minimal - I wonder whether the oil spray was the problem. They still have the "S" shape but some of the inner grooves have blurred and of course there was no oven spring. Mary, I think it was you who thought the amount of yeast was too small? I had been thinking it was too much - 1 1/4tspn in the dough plus 1/2tspn in the pate fermentee. Of course there are so many variables. I used brand new instant yeast, KA bread flour and BRM durum - this last had been stored in the freezer but had sat on the counter overnight. I mixed the dough in my Bosch on low speed and it felt "right". Oh well, I guess this is all part of the mystery and the magic and an excuse to try the recipe again! Let me know how things go for you. I'm going to take pictures but may or may not get them posted, A.

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Just a couple more thoughts. I wonder whether the loaves could be baked under a roasting pan to avoid the hot water and spraying? I also think maybe next time I will skip the overnight retarding. Maybe the flavor wouldn't be as good, but I guess I will have to make it over and over to be sure, A.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I was thinking it was sort of a lot of yeast, since it fermented so bumptiously. Someone who knows more than I do would have to tell me how to make that assessment.

My crust has a lot of small blisters. I really loved the crust, crisp at first and chewy after a day, and tastes so good.

My loaves kept their shape very nicely. I'm thinking that next time I'll make the whole recipe but I'll make two loaves, not three.

I have a gas oven, and I've been doing the boiling-water-in-the-cast-iron-skillet thing, and the steam is gone within a minute, so I'm going to see if these loaves could fit under a roasting pan.

Abby

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

When you add the amount of yeast in the fermentee and the final dough you in fact do come up with 1 3/4 teaspoons of yeast (if using instant.) However, when you add all the flours together in the two mixes, you have a total of 5 3/4 cups of flour. That's also a lot of flour. It sort of sneaks in there. I make it between .6 of a percent and .7, in other words, less that 1 percent.

I went back and checked the baker's percentages of yeast on the last 9 yeasted recipes I have made (excluding sourdough.) They ranged from a high of 2.8% for a very rich, fat-laden coffee cake to very lean bagels at .4%. Hamburger buns came in at 1.8% (somewhat high, but had added fat), English Muffins at 1.4%, white loaf bread at 1.5%, and the rest under 1%. So I guess it isn't quite as low as I thought, but it's on the low side. Interesting variations. Good old percentages -- I love 'em.

My dough is resting on the kitchen table. It's about 74 degrees here, so I had better go check it.

More news tomorrow. Mine will definitely bake under the foil roaster. Probably at 5 am, if things continue as they have with others.

Mary

 

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hmmmm. "Pani Siciliani" is a double plural. Kinda like saying "Italians Breads" but then again my Italian is weak. :)

Reading all the posts with overproofed dough made me wonder why would you not consider reshaping it and letting it final proof out of the refrigerator? Too much time?

Rudy

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Are you suggesting that if the loaves are overproofed after their final shaping and proofing, the baker should then degas them and reshape them, and then let them reproof out of the refrigerator, for maybe a half hour? Interesting thought. Would the sugars be exhausted at that point?

Regarding Italian grammar, although I don't know Italian, I do know some French and Latin as well as other languages, and the grammar of Romance languages requires noun-adjective pairings to agree in number and gender. That is, if the noun is plural, the adjective is plural. It's not like English, where "Italians breads" is wrong.

Abby

KosherBaker's picture
KosherBaker

Hi Abby, I wouldn't recommend degassing them, but would definately recommend to reshape/refold them. Trying to avoid degassing them as much as possible. This will expose the yeast to new sources of food, thereby alleviating your fear of sugars being exhausted. As far as how long they should proof the weather, dough size and  dough activity is a much better timer than a clock. Essentially it is a brand new final proofing.

Thanks you for the explanation on the Italian Grammar. :)

Rudy

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I put the Pane Siciliano shaped dough in the refrigerator at about 3:30 yesterday afternoon, but along about 11:30 I got to wondering about it, took one look, and turned on the oven. It was turning into "the bread that ate Hammondsport!" My fridge was at 40 degrees on that shelf, and I think 8 hours is about the maximum proofing for this dough at that temp. I think I caught it at the optimal time, though it is a little portly. At any rate, I did not bake it under a bowl, and at that time of night, I didn't spray either, so the crust is a little more tender than I expected. Delicious bread, however. It also smells delightful. Pane SicilianoPane Siciliano

Siciliano CrumbSiciliano Crumb

The crumb is also tender, though fine-grained.

Mixing details: Since I was only baking half the formula, I didn't have a problem with it climbing up the dough hook on the KA. I did have to add two teaspoons of flour, sprinkled around the edge of the bowl, to get it to pull into a ball, but other than that, no problems. This dough does rise fast, but no faster than the Campagne made with the same pate fermentee, maybe even a little slower.

Rudy asked -- why not reshape it if it seems overproofed? I thought about it, Rudy -- I really did. My two reasons not to do so were: reshaping would pull all those sesame seeds and the oil the loaf was sprayed with into the loaf, and I didn't want that; and additionally, I am trying very hard to not overwork my dough. The crumb here is finer than I would have liked -- I think it would have been worse had I reshaped it.

For a first attempt I am quite satified. I think this dough would make wonderful table rolls, but this "S" shape is fun and easy to do. Thanks, AbbyL, for the suggestion.

Mary

 

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Mary, your loaf looks great - wish I had had the sense to bake mine that night. I'm pretty sure mine had too long in the refrigerator because I shaped them in the afternoon and didn't bake until pretty late yesterday morning. Interesting that dough made with pate fermentee rises so fast, and I forgot to ask how much everyone's fermentee rose - mine more than doubled overnight. I also handled my dough very gently and wonder whether more rigorous de-gassing might have slowed it down. Oh well, maybe next time... I still love the flavor and it was fun to make it again, A.

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

It's 9:30 on Friday morning and my loaves are in the oven right now. I put the shaped loaves in the fridge yesterday at 7:00 pm and had planned to bake much earlier than this, but I overslept. You know, it's my day off and all. Much to my delight the dough wasn't over proofed when I looked at it at 8:00 this morning. It seemed pretty ready, though, so I did put it in the oven almost straight away. I can't think of much else I did differently that made mine not over proof after so long. Do you guys open your fridge much? Mine stayed pretty well shut most of the time it was in there. 

When I mixed the dough yesterday my kitchen was quite warm and the dough was 82 degrees when I was done kneading. It only sat for an hour before it was more than doubled, so I shaped and put it in the fridge then rather than waiting the other hour. Unfortunately I forgot to put the sesame seeds on the thing before retarding, so I did it before they went into the oven, I just hope they don't fall off.

I'll report back once the loaves are out and sliced into. 

Mary, I think that was a rather good idea, baking it that evening. I thought of doing it as well and checked on it last night. When I did at about 10:00 pm it didn't look quite ready, so I left it alone.

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Rainbow, I just re-read Mary's post and see that we both shaped our loaves at the same time - but I baked mine at the same time as you. Which means mine were chilling for much longer. Will be interesting to see how yours look and taste. My fridge is exactly 40* and I didn't open it much but obviously that was too long. Great fun anyway, and a neat shape and good flavor. Hope you like it, A.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Here's the lesson I'm learning: 80 degree ambient temperature + instant yeast = dough explosion. I'm making challah now, which doesn't use a preferment, but I'm in the habit of making my dough on Thursday night and leaving it in the refrigerator to rise in the bucket until Friday afternoon. When I took it out of the refrigerator a little while ago, it was pressing against the top of the bucket with such force that it sounded almost like a gunshot when I removed the top. My dough was 42 degrees.

Rainbow, I'm looking forward to your report on your bread.

Mary, your bread looks very good. I know how great it must taste! 

Abby

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Here's the lesson I'm learning: 80 degree ambient temperature + instant yeast = dough explosion. I'm making challah now, which doesn't use a preferment, but I'm in the habit of making my dough on Thursday night and leaving it in the refrigerator to rise in the bucket until Friday afternoon. When I took it out of the refrigerator a little while ago, it was pressing against the top of the bucket with such force that it sounded almost like a gunshot when I removed the top. My dough was 42 degrees.

Rainbow, I'm looking forward to your report on your bread.

Mary, your bread looks very good. I know how great it must taste! 

Abby

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

Wow, that sounds sort of neat actually. I think what I'm learning is that we need to change our baking habits as the seasons change. When it gets warmer or cooler, regular methods should be adjusted in the home kitchen. I think that it's yearly a thing that is forgotten, that a half a year ago I did something quite differently. It's always a mental adjustment when the weather changes. It hasn't quite gotten hot here yet, but it will and I'm glad I was reminded of this now so I can prepare. :)

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

Pane Sicilianop

Those are the loaves. I was really pleased with how they came out, this bread tastes so good. The sesame seeds stuck, too.

The crust on this bread is up there with my favorites I think. I can see how this dough would make good bread sticks, perhaps rolled in sesame seeds and kosher salt before baking? I'd like to try that next time. That's a good idea Annie. And by the way, I'd love to see some pictures if you get around to it.

Everyones bread looks and sounds great. Thanks for all the tips, this was fun.

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Wow! Great looking loaves and look at that crumb! Now I'm depressed! I see you got the pretty freckled crust too. Did you say how you mixed the dough - mixer or by hand? I did take pictures but so far I haven't been able to transfer them to TFL. One of these days I will surprise you all - maybe, A.

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

I mixed and kneaded by hand. Also I halved the recipe. The dough was really sticky for a while, but it became really beautiful to handle after about four minutes of kneading, only very slightly tacky. I kneaded it for a little over ten minutes and it reached a pretty weak window pane.  I dig the blistery crust, I'm glad it came out.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I'm so inspired, Rainbow! I'm going to start a new pate fermentee now and see if I can put what I've learned to good use. Cool water, and maybe I should put the pate into the refrigerator as soon as I make it. What do you think, my wise consultants?

Abby

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

Abby, I'm inclined to think that the preferment needs to sit out before being retarded to avoid overproofing later on. If it just goes mostly dormant immediately, the yeast will just feed later with old and new flour, no? I could probably be clearer or more accurate about what I'm trying to say, but I hope it makes sense. It seems to me that the way to avoid overproofing this dough is to just watch the shaped loaf in the fridge and bake it when it's ready. Perhaps a daytime retarding, rather than letting it go while we sleep and have no idea what's going on with it.

By the way, I never mentioned the fact that the night before baking morning for this bread, I had dreams of it overproofing, deflating, burning, being stepped on. I woke up instantly in a panic and ran to the fridge to check it. That was rather wierd.

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

When I finished putting my pate fermentee together, the dough was 87 degrees. So I put it into the refrigerator immediately for a while, and then took it out after about an hour. It hadn't really risen at all, so I figured it ought to proof a bit, so I let it sit out for that one-and-a-half times the original size proofing. Then back into the refrigerator, where it continued to rise until I degassed it as described (silly giggle here).

Abby

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

A few years ago, I made Pane Siciliano. At that time, I converted everything to sourdough. So, I made a something I incorrectly called a pate fermente with sourdough. It worked quite well. I didn't know enough to know that shouldn't work, and neither did my sourdough starter. One of the loaves I made looked like this:

 

Today, I'd roll out the dough longer to get more of a swirl in the "S" and would have used lots more sesame seeds.

 

But, back to the sourdough "pate fermente."  When you put things into the fridge, they don't go into stasis like something in a bad science fiction movie, they don't stop at once. They cool slowly and from the outside in, and then slow down. When I pulled out my sourdough based "pate fermente" out of the fridge, it had not risen at all. And I was sure that this was going to be a disaster. However, when it warmed in the dough, it became obvious that the sourdough "pate fermente" was very lively and the dough rose quite nicely.

 

So, my suggestion is, don't second guess Peter Reinhart on handling the dough. While I don't always agree with his terminology, he is an excellent and careful baker. If you try one of his recipes and it doesn't work, re-examine what you did to see if you really followed the recipe. Then look for things to change.

 

Mike

 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Mike, thanks for your comments. You are definitely one of the wise heads around this website. But after trying to follow the recipe as written, or as close to it as possible, my dough overproofed because I don't have air conditioning and can't control the ambient temperature of my kitchen. I'm not quite ready to abstain from baking except under perfect weather conditions, so I'm experimenting with ways to control the temperature of my dough by means of when and how long I refrigerate it. If there are better ways to do it than the ways I'm experimenting with, please do suggest them.

The bread in the picture is beautiful. How did it taste in its sourdough incarnation? 

Abby

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Except for when I was running a bakery, my kitchen has been very modest.  And, for that matter, when I was running a bakery the kitchen wasn't all that much more sophisticated.

 

Many years ago, I was visiting a girl friend in Galveston, TX.  I had to get back to Austin to feed people at the cooperative house where I was boarding.  So. my then girl friend, and now wife, and I went to the fish monger and got some redfish, and to the grocery store where I bought the ingredients for brioche.  The idea was to make a fish en crote from one of Julia Child's cookbooks.  Julia said it would take hours for the dough to rise, so I thought I'd make it back to Austin before I had to mess with the dough.  About an hour outside of Galveston I looked over at the floorboards of my unairconditioned car and saw the dough had risen WAY high.  And was about to collapse all over the floor boards.  I pulled over, punched down the dough, kneaded it a bit, covered it and hit the road again.  I had to do that 4 more times before I got to Austin.  The gang liked the dish.  Oddly enough, I had never fixed it for my wife until this weekend.  It is a very, very nice dish.  She liked it.  I wish I'd known then, 25 years ago, one thing I know now.

I don't know if you've seen one of my other posts on the rule of 240.  Most doughs do best when they are about 78F.  Less than that and the don't develop well.  Higher than that and they rise too quickly and often develop off tastes.  So, the goal is to get the dough to around 78F.

 

When you look at your kitchen, you have air temperature which is hard to control, flour temperature which is also hard to control and water temperature which can be easily controlled.  So, the idea behind the rule of 240 is to select the water temperature so the dough temperature comes out right.  Subtract the flour temperature from 240, then subtract the flour temperature from 240, then subtract how much kneading heats up your dough from 240 (this varies from recipe to recipe, and mixer to mixer.  Tp determine it, measure your dough temperature with a chef's thermometer as it comes together and then again when it is full kneaded.  If you don't have a number, 10 is a reasonable starting point.)  So, if your flour is at 85 and your room is at 83, you'd subtract both from 240, and then 10 more.  Or 83+85+10 = 178, and 240-178 = 62, or use water at 62F.  If you are using very cold or hot water, protect the yeast from direct contact with the water. 

 

This will give you a lot more control over the dough rise time.  I think that Jeff Hammelman suggests a rule of 320 if you are using sourdough, poolish, biga or other preferments, where you suybract the temperature of the air, flour. preferment and dough temperature rise through kneading from 320 and that becomes the water temperature you should use.

 

One other way to control temperature is to get a bus tub, fill it with cool water and float the bowl of dough in the tub.  And yet another way is to look around for a cheap, or free, refrigerator or upright freezer. Go to a brewing supply house and get a thermostatic controller.  With it, you can dial the temperature you want in the freezer or refrigerator.  Then put proofing dough in there.  You only need to run it when you have something in the fridge.  Many times appliance stores have old units to give away, and often you can find them in garage sales or your local "shopper" type paper.

 

Oh, the sourdough Pane Siciliano was very nice, it had a depth of flavor that a yeasted version doesn't approach.  It wasn't very sour, just rich.  Sourdough doesn't have to be sour!  The picture was taken on a very scratched up stainless steel table.

 

Hope some of my late night rambling helos,

Mike

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Hi all!

I've been following your posts and would like to give this bread a try. Now, the problem I have is which semolina flour. I was at the store and found some "semoule au blé dur" which is finely ground but still a bit gritty. Can I use this, or do I need to try and find an even finer flour? I'll try and look at the organic store but if I can use what I bought I'll try.

Also, I can try the pain de campagne if you are still interested in a French example. I don't have the recipe, though. 

Your breads looks great! The intiative is very interesting and helpful, too.

Jane 

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Semolina flour -- gritty it is. Well, a little bit gritty. Over here that's the semolina and durum is softer and more like flour-flour. Here they use semolina for breads and durum to make homemade pasta.

So do you have the recipe for the Pane Siciliano? I will type up the one for Campagne later on today and post it to that thread. We would be delighted to have you join us in both. My daughter Elizabeth (in Grasse) started out to bake the Campagne last night, but fell asleep and overproofed the pate fermentee. She said the bread baked from it this morning was like a brick. So she is rebaking that tonight, but input from you would be good also.

Actually -- what it would be most useful for you to do is bake us a boule of your favorite French country recipe, made with a pre-ferment, and flour, salt, yeast, and water plus the preferment in the main dough. That way we would be able to see a "baked in France with French flour according to Reinhart's recipe" from Elizabeth and a "baked in France from a French recipe" from you. And maybe one from Reinhart's recipe too. If you would be so kind. Of course, both of you were born in North America, but we will have to ignore that. Between the two of you, you have about 25 years of living in France -- that ought to count for something.

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Sorry I didn't respond to so much of the conversation yesterday. We got caught up in yard work, and did a tremendous amount, so I was dog tired when I got back to the computer. But the weeds took a gigantic hit.

Rainbow, I'm delighted to see your pictures. Your loaves were skinnier than mine -- more like they are supposed to look, I think. Glad to see the seeds stayed on. Better late than never.

I am imagining this as a dinner-party bread. People would be very impressed, and never know how easy the shaping really is.

I received a reply from Peter Reinhart and will cover it more on the Pain de Campagne thread, but some of what he said would apply here too. He suggested that we try reducing the amount of yeast in the final dough by about 25% if it was rising too fast. That might also help with this recipe where it is still rising in the refrigerator. I put 3 grams into my final dough; I will try it reduced to 2 and a bit next time around.

For me, scheduling is going to be a factor when I make it again. Since I am retired, I could start it at about 8 am or so, put it in the fridge at 10, take it out at 6 when dinner was cooked and the oven probably partway hot at least, and finish it off then. 8 hours seemed to work well as a refrigerator rising time for me.

So -- good experience for us all. Definitely one I will bake again. Let's see what Jane comes up with.

Mary

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

Jane, I most definitely hope you try this bread out. My semolina was grittier than a flour as well. I think, though, that unlike some other breads made with semolina or durum, this one might be quite forgiving no matter what sort of grind you end up using.

Mary, I agree, this would make a fantastic dinner bread for feeding guests. Last thanksgiving I had the desire to do rolls in this shape, but lost the nerve and did plain rolls. Next time. 

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I can see it now, one or two-person miniatures. As my husband is wont to say, we could open franchises and sell them all over the country. Oh, never mind that, but miniature ones sound very impressive. Sort of curled up breadsticks, but not so crisp.

Mary

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Those of you who made single loaves with half the recipe, what were the dimensions of your final product?

I just looked in on the pate fermentee that I made about 24 hours ago, and it looks very risen. I'm going to put the dough together in maybe about 5 hours. Think I should press the pate down a bit now?

When I make the final dough, I'm going to use the pate cold, straight out of the refrigerator, because the temperature in my kitchen is 81 degrees. Hopefully that will slow down some of that overenthusiastic rising in the refrigerator. 

Abby

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

It's too late to measure; the loaf is half gone. However -- it almost filled a small cookie sheet pan that is 11 inches long, and was kinda fat. Tubby, let's say.

Re the other question you asked , about crumb, No, other than what I quoted on the other thread, Reinhart didn't say much. It's apparently all in the handling. Wish I knew how I could be more gentle, too, short of handling it as he shows doing under ciabatta.

I don't think pressing the preferment down now would hurt it, no. Especially since one is supposed to cut it up into pieces. That certainly degasses it.

I do think using the preferment cold, using cold water, and using 25% less yeast, would help with the final dough, yes. I doubt if it would be overkill today. It's all experimentation anyway, once we leave the printed page.

Mary

 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I just pressed down my very risen refrigerated pate fermentee and produced some great sound effects. A high-pitched whistling wind-letting.

Abby

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

Rude dough! Or maybe it's celebrating the 4th a day late.

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

Using the pate cold sounds like a great idea. That'll surely provide more of a buffer in time. I halved the recipe and made two loaves whose dimensions were 5" (at its widest spots) by 9" length by 2.5" height.

Good luck with your new loaves!

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Is this the right recipe?

http://yougonnaeatallthat.blogspot.com/2007/02/semolina-bread.html

Logically, it is! But just making sure there aren't any changes.

OK for the pain campagne French style. I have French nationality and learned to bake bread in France... that counts, right??? (LOL)

The semolina I have is gritty and I'll check out the stuff I can get at the biocoop. They might be able to order durum. But reading the recipe, the stuff I have should do the trick.

I'll get on the recipe's and be back with news soon... or questions!

Jane 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Jane, I don't think you have to worry about the semolina you already have. It ought to work perfectly well. The recipe we're working from uses either semolina or durum.

AbbyL

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I had seen that recipe, and while it is close, it's not the same. Here's the one we followed.

Pate Fermentee -- make the same as in Pain de Campagne that I sent you.

Final Dough

all of pre-ferment

bread flour - 8 oz. (266 gr.)

semolina flour - 8 oz. (266 gr.)

salt - .31 oz. (9 gr.)

instant yeast - .14 oz. (3 gr.) or up to 25% less, as discussed.

olive oil - 1 oz. (29 gr.)

honey - .75 oz. (21 gr.)

water - 10 to 12 oz. (283 to 340 gr.)

Note the addition of the honey and olive oil. I think it is the oil especially that makes this so tender it almost melts in your mouth.

To make the final dough, stir together flours, salt, and yeast. Add fermentee (cut up and allowed to warm) and all other ingredients. Use minimum amount of water unless more is needed. Knead by hand for 10 minutes or for 6 to 8 if using a mixer.

Let ferment until doubled (about 2 hrs.) If it's hot it will be much less unless you have reduced the amount of yeast. Maybe even then.

Divide in 3 and shape as if you were making baguettes about two feet long, and being gentle. The, working one at a time, roll the ends toward the center into an "S" shaped spiral. I then carefully placed mine on baking parchment, misted with water, and sprinkled on the sesame seeds. Rainbowbrown forgot and put the seeds on later and it didn't appear to matter. I then misted with oil spray and put into a big plastic bag and stored in the fridge at 4o degrees. At 8 hours I felt they were risen enough so I baked them for 25 to 30 minutes at 450, without steam, though Reinhart calls for steam. It was hours past my bedtime and I got lazy.

Re the pain de Campagne style -- you count as French, sure. More than Eliz. anyhow.

Re the flour - in the recipe Reinhart says that semolina (what you have) is best but that durum, which is finer, may be used if necessary. I intend to try the finer grind sometime, but the somewhat gritty works just fine.

Best of luck,

Mary 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Ok, thanks, I'm glad I didn't rush in to that one. Right now I've got a campagne going. I didn't receive the recipe from BBA, though. Could you send it to

janedo70@gmail.com

Then I'll compare with what I did.

Thanks,

Jane 

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

As an informal group, we have baked two BBA breads recently. There are similarities and differences between Reinhart's method for making each.

Re Pane Siciliano:

The only two times spent out of the refrigerator for this bread is for the pate fermentee, which is supposed to rise until doubled, before being refrigerated overnight. The next day the final dough is made and fermented for 2 hours, then shaped and immediately refrigerated after shaping, and, in these temperatures, baked right out of the refrigerator the next day. No rising after shaping except in the fridge.

I agree that my final dough behaved as you described, Mike, not slowing down immediately upon being placed in the fridge. As a matter of fact, I think most of the rising took place in the two hours immediately after it went in, and then it increased very slowly. But it did continue to rise. So my thinking is that if we let it rise in the fridge for less than overnight in warm weather (giving enough time for flavor development but not too much time for overproofing) that is the best we can do with this dough in hot weather. 8 hours seemed about right, as opposed to a full night.

Peter's comment about reducing the yeast was with regard to Pain de Campagne, which uses the same pate fermentee, and which is treated the same way up to a point. (Note that the preferment is not the only leaven; in either of these breads there is twice as much yeast in the final dough as there is in the pate fermentee; my impression is that the pate fermentee is as much for flavor as for leavening power.)

The Pain de Campagne final dough spends no time in the refrigerator after it is made. The dough bulk ferments at room temp. for two hours, to develop flavor. However, it is not supposed to more than double, and if it does, we are to degas it and let it rise again. With the warm weather we have been dealing with, the dough doubles in 30 to 45 minutes. I have then done a letter fold to degas it, and others have gently pressed it down -- every 30 to 45 minutes for the two hours. Peter suggests that this affected the eventual crumb, and so recommends using 25% less yeast in the final dough to slow things down. I would also think that not using 100 degree water to mix it and not warming up the patee fermentee before mixing it in would slow things a bit. Do you feel this is a wrong route to take, Mike? I think we are all feeling a bit between a rock and a hard place here; there has got to be a way to do this. If not cooling to slow it down it is a bad idea and manipulating it causes it to degas too much -- is there a third way?

Later, after shaping ver-r-r-y carefully to avoid degassing, the Pain de Campagne is to proof until 1 1/2 times its shaped size. Peter suggests 1 hour. If it reaches that size in 30 minutes would you bake it then, or would you try to slow things down somewhat by finding a cooler place for it to proof. Or -- again, a third way.

I'm sorry, but I guess I'm not sure where you feel we are getting off on the wrong track and where we should ignore the Wizard. Like Abby, I respect your knowledge, Mike, and feel you can help us a great deal. Thanks for your interest.

Mary

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

MaryinHammondsport commented:

The only two times spent out of the refrigerator for this bread is for the pate fermentee, which is supposed to rise until doubled, before being refrigerated overnight. The next day the final dough is made and fermented for 2 hours, then shaped and immediately refrigerated after shaping, and, in these temperatures, baked right out of the refrigerator the next day. No rising after shaping except in the fridge.

 

Oops.  It's been too long since I read the recipe for Pane Siciliano.  For some reason I was certain the idea was to mix the pate fermente and immediately put it into the fridge.  Talk of keeping it out concerned me, and I thought people were being a bit fast and loose with the instructions before they'd tried them.  As Miss Emily Latella used to say, "Oops, never mind!"

 

As to getting off on the wrong track, my usual approach is to follow a recipe to the letter.  Once.  And then to make it my own.  One way or another.   And it seemed that you were having fun with the recipe without understanding it... when it was me who didn't understand it.

 

Nary also said:

Later, after shaping ver-r-r-y carefully to avoid degassing, the Pain de Campagne is to proof until 1 1/2 times its shaped size. Peter suggests 1 hour. If it reaches that size in 30 minutes would you bake it then, or would you try to slow things down somewhat by finding a cooler place for it to proof. Or -- again, a third way

 

I learned the hard way, when the bread has risen, bake it.  It won't get better.  However, I also have trouble with guidelines like, "when it has risen to 1 1/2 times its shaped size" as so few people have a real idea what that should look like.  Most free form breads spread in 3 dimensions, so when it looks like its risen to 1 1/2 times its shaped size, it has actually risen to 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5, or about  3.4 times its original size.  If you look for it to double, you could be seeing 8x instead.  A great learning tool is to put a few ounces of dough into a glass measuring cup that has gradations on it, so you cna tell when the dough has risen by 1 1/2 times, or 2 times or whatever.  It also helps to learn to feel the dough so you can tell when it has risen too far, and when its risen to the right point.

 

Again, I am sorry for jumping in with well meaning, but off target, advice.

Mike

 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Yesterday evening, when I was putting the dough together, I decided to try mixing the dough by hand, after having just viewed the stretch-and-fold vids again. My dough was definitely more sticky than tacky, but I decided to add no more than a fistful of bread flour (about 1 ounce), and attempted the stretch-and-fold method to try to make the dough more cohesive. Actually, in my rendering, it's more like a scrape-and-flop. It didn't turn into the purring kitten the video dough became, but it wasn't awful, so I put it into the oiled bucket, put on the top, and left it at room temperature (76 degrees) while we went to a neighbor's party for about an hour and a quarter.

Come back to find the dough champing at the bit to pop out of the bucket, then opened it, got another gunshot sound. It didn't deflate too much, but I thought the dough needed to cool down before I worked it. I put it into the refrigerator, and when it was approaching the top of the bucket again about 15 minutes later, I put it into the freezer for another 15 minutes. At that point the dough was 61 degrees and still very risen.

I took it out and shaped it as gently as I could. It was a pretty slack dough, so it wasn't as easy to shape as the first time when I added more flour, but I got one loaf that found its way into quite an attractive S-shape and another that tended more to the blob shape. Water spray, sesame seeds, oil spray, plastic wrap covering, and dash back into the refrigerator.

8 hours later, into the 500 degree oven. I did the spraying and the hot water steaming, but it's kind of pointless in my gas oven. I thought about covering the loaves with a roaster pan, but I wasn't sure they would fit. Turns out they will, so next time.

I think the crumb this time is marginally more open than my first time, a little smaller than Rainbow's appears to be. The crust is beautifully golden with tiny blisters all over-- very nice. Still haven't gotten around to replacing the batteries in my camera and learning how to post pictures, sorry.

Abby

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I got two really good points from your most recent post, Mike. The first is the idea of floating the overly-enthusiastic dough (in its fermenting container, of course) in cooler than room temp. water to slow the rising down a bit. I'll remember that. I have been a devotee of the rule of 240 since I read it on your site.

My second "take away" point you made was that it's hard to tell when a shaped free-form dough has risen to a certain percentage of the original volume. I think I knew this instinctively, but you put it into words. It's not like dough in a loaf pan, where the only way out is up. Something to remember. Experience helps.

Best,

Mary 

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

But I thought I'd still share my results. I didn't have a lot of computer time last week (still don't).

I used less yeast in the pâte fermenté but basically the amount required in the recipe for the dough. I didn't have a rise problem, it was pretty much on schedule even though it is pretty warm here.

The swirl was not very pronounced. I should have done as Mike said and lengthened the rope. But that sort of thing comes with experience because when it was in place, it looked good, then at baking, oops, not long enough.

I put the seeds on after the rise because that is what I usually do. 

It looks similar to yours, so I think the result is pretty the same. I will definitely try a sourdough version because I admit that breads like these are sort of "boring" to my sourdough palet. 

If you do another experiment, I'd be happy to do it with you.

Jane

Pain sicilianoPain siciliano

Pain siciliano crumbPain siciliano crumb

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

I agree, Jane, it's not a bread for sourdough-educated palattes. On the other hand, it's a good thing to have in one's files for a gift bread when you are not sure how sourdough would be received. And I like a change of pace once in a while, too.

I want to experiment more with sesame seeds; do you have any good ideas?

Mary 

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

You're quite right, it is a nice gift bread or crowd pleaser.

So, do you want the seeds in the bread or on the bread? When I make a grain bread, I take a handul of sesame, a handful of dark flax and a handful of sunflower seeds. I love that mix.

I also do a sourdough + a bit of yeast, long, type loaf that I either sprinkle with poopy seeds or sesame. Or these ones

http://aulevain.canalblog.com/archives/2008/04/06/8632973.html

They're a Kamut, wheat baguette-style bread. The sesame and Kamut would be nice together. 

There are so many possiblities and not enoough days in the week.

Jane 

MaryinHammondsport's picture
MaryinHammondsport

That's a good idea. So I could take Mark's multi-grain bread, as recently baked by Eric Hanner, and use sesame as one of the grains. I have sesame and sunflower seeds; I think I may even have flax. Time to go dig in the freezer.

Seed bread!

I like the taste of sesame so much I may try it inside just plain bread, as well as on top.

Talk to you later Jane -- have fun in Paris.

Mary 

 

rainbowbrown's picture
rainbowbrown

Jane, your loaf looks great. I think a sourdough semolina would be very good. I know it's been done around here before, I haven't tried it yet though.

As for a bread with sesame in it, how about a tahini bread? Tahini is sesame seed paste, I don't know if you can get it in your areas though. It's available at middle eastern markets. I did a google search for tahini bread and found a few recipes with commercial yeast. I'm sure sourdough versions could be done. Just an idea.

And Jane, I agree with Mary. Have fun in Paris. 

 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Having read so much about 'fine durum flour' vs. coarser semolina etc.The very idea of using semolina in bread had me kind of scared but regardless I had a go at making sourdough semolina bread over the weekend. (see blog) 

It was the first time I've ever used semolina in a bread (not just sprinkled on the peel)  Anyway the recipe I used was adapted from the BBA with inspiration from Maggie Glezer.  The proofing took forever and as a result the bread was very chewy. The underproofed results had rather uneven texture (too dense in places) but the one loaf that I essentially overproofed (no room in the oven) was much better and perfect for an italian salami-fest of a sandwich.

I'll give it another shot sometime. 

and to echo the above, Jane, have a great time in Paris! 

Cheers

 

FP 

 

 

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I always have tahini in the fridge so I could try something out. I also bought some Gomasio to try and make some bread out of it, but haven't done it, yet. I think I'd like a long, baguette-style bread using white flour, so the sesame flavour would dominate.

There are all sorts of possibilities with grains. I made a sourdough, apple juice, raisin, sunflower seed, flax seed bread with a touch of rye today. It looks lovely but haven't tasted it. It can't be bad! :-)

FP, the reality is that the semolina drinks the liquid and ends up soft. I saw your bread. I'll try a semolina sourdough when I get home and let you know. There are so many breads to test!

Thanks for the "bon voyage" wishes. I haven't been away from the little kids EVER! It should be quite an experience.

Jane