I have asked this very question of someone who I consider to be a well qualified teacher.
The response was: it depends on the mixing method to be employed. If it is a fairly gentle mixing method, you may wish to include salt and leavening as it will be more difficult to incorporate these elements later. If a mechanical mixer of some sort is employed, in general the leavaning and salt would be added after autolyse.
In any case, all of the water in the recipe needs to be added for autolyse. This means any type of preferment is added at the autolyse phase.
This is the advice I was given and I tend to follow it with some success.
Has the preferment added afterward. After all, as long as the flour is sufficiently saturated, I don't see why there'd be a problem adding the preferment later. That said, if the preferment adds a significant water contribution (say, a large volume of 100%+ hydration poolish), the water in the recipe might not be enough to saturate the flour sufficiently for the gluten to develop, so you may have no choice but to add the preferment at the autolyse stage.
Advice differs so much from person to person. This is why I only share the fact that I've been told something and that it works (or doesn't) - "for me."
I work mostly with high hydration preferments. Perhaps this is why I find what was told to me to be valid.
Personally, I'd exclude the yeast during the autolyse step. The whole purpose is to trigger gluten development, and neither the yeast nor the salt will help, there. Meanwhile, including the yeast will increase the chance that you'll overproof the dough, at which point all your efforts will be for naught.
That said, metropical, is there a reason you don't go for a shorter, same-day autolyse at room temperature? I've certainly found that gluten develops *much* quicker at room temperature than in the fridge (having done experiments with refridgerated versus room temperature overnight poolishes... the latter turns into a thick, gluey mass, while the former keeps it's pancake-batter-like consistency). And in this article:
I tried the 30 min option at room temp a few times. Did nothing for my bread. But the overnight refridge definitely gives it more character and for whatever reason requires less yeast added. 1 tsp as compared to 2.5 tsp.
'course, it may be the type of dough. This is with my multigrain with a grape starter.
From a video I saw by French baker, Calvel, if your using cake yeast you add it after the autolyse, but if your using dry, you add it before the autolyse to allow it time to wake up. And as far as the pre ferment, he added that after the autolyse. He was making baguettes so I dont know if there is a difference with higher hydration doughs , and from what I have read here Calvel is the bee's knaees of bread baking. So his method is what I've been folowing. If you go on to the CIA's websight...thats the culinary institute of america, not the central (lack) of intelligence agency, you can download the pod cast for just a couple bucks. It's really cool to watch
Of the bread people I’ve worked with, only one, a French baker back in 1994 used the autolyse technique. We made seven or maybe eight doughs, the last one being straight dough baguette using autolyse.
As it was the final dough, we could let it rest in the mixing bowl covered with a cloth.
Autolyse is a wonderful tool to have in bread making but it does takes up time and space.
Raymond Calvel is credited with this technique, which gives you the advantage
of a shorter mix time ( more aroma and flavour; better crumb) and greater extensibility… so it’s way easier (as an example)
to shape baguettes.
Basically, you mix your flour and water briefly, then let it rest 20 – 30 minutes.
During this rest time the flour fully hydrates and the gluten starts to develop.
You don’t want to add yeast because it would start to ferment and acidify
the dough.
You don’t want to add preferments because it too, will acidify the dough.
You don’t want to add salt because it will tighten the gluten.
Enzymes that are at work in autolyse (in this case, proteolytic) work best in a more neutral environment. That’s the reasoning to avoid yeast, salt and pre ferments.
Now, if you’re using instant yeast, you add it to autolyse at the beginning
because as richawatt mentioned, it takes a bit of time to get going.
I use autolyse for my French breads at home for a few reasons
but mostly because it saves me kneading and the dough rest period (autolyse) gives me
time to do other things.
Most of the time I get lazy and add ALL the ingredients, including salt
After the initial mix, I autolyse between 30 –60 minutes but it’s usually an hour.
It’s amazing how much the dough develops
on its own.
A few brief folds, and the dough is done.
I never really tuned into the “no need to knead , or artisan bread in five minutes“ but autolyse would seem to share certain similarities.
Now, at this point, I can continue to process my dough and bake it in a few more hours but if I get busy, I can refrigerate it
for an hour, punch, then bulk ferment and the next day shape, proof and bake
or I can shape it now, retard it overnight to bake the next day at my convenience.
Well, this thread sent me back to Clavel. When you look at his formulas in the book "Le Gout du Pain" he is somewhat inconsistent as to when just what is added to the autolyse. Sometimes salt is held back - sometimes not.
Professor Clavel was a distinguished baker and I'm sure he would adapt as situations arose.
However I cannot help but recall one of my teachers (who, I believe, had more than a passing knowledge of Professor Clavel's work) chuckling incredulously “And you don’t add the poolish in to the autolyse?Now I’ve heard it all.”There are a few moments in life burned into my brain.That moment is one of them.
So, the method works for me.The more I learn about this craft of bread baking the more I subscribe to the saying “Chacun á son gout!”
because my dough for j hamelmans 5 grain sourdough rye is just "autolysing" or so i think. I did add the soaker and the sourdough because of laziness, i didn't add the yeast, though. i will dissolve the instant dry yeast in a tbsp. or so of water, add it (and the honey) and not be scared of the mess. but does any of you have and idea of adding other ingredients, such as sugar, fat or so? or is this the only way?
First off, don't dissolve the instant yeast! It hates it went you do that. :) Just add the yeast directly to the dough and kneed it in. I've used this same technique for salt, and it works just fine (I assume the same is true of sugar). I've never tried to add fat into a recipe after the fact, though.
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autolyse - my waysalt
I usually mix the dough without slat and yeast.
Then refridge over night.
Allow to come to room temp the next day.
Add salt and yeast and mix again.
Dunno if that's the right way, but it works quite well for me.
give me liberty and a 5lb bag of flour
Autolyse
I have asked this very question of someone who I consider to be a well qualified teacher.
The response was: it depends on the mixing method to be employed. If it is a fairly gentle mixing method, you may wish to include salt and leavening as it will be more difficult to incorporate these elements later. If a mechanical mixer of some sort is employed, in general the leavaning and salt would be added after autolyse.
In any case, all of the water in the recipe needs to be added for autolyse. This means any type of preferment is added at the autolyse phase.
This is the advice I was given and I tend to follow it with some success.
Hope this helps.
"This means any type of
"This means any type of preferment is added at the autolyse phase."
That's interesting, because this article:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/lessons/tentips_8_autolyse
Has the preferment added afterward. After all, as long as the flour is sufficiently saturated, I don't see why there'd be a problem adding the preferment later. That said, if the preferment adds a significant water contribution (say, a large volume of 100%+ hydration poolish), the water in the recipe might not be enough to saturate the flour sufficiently for the gluten to develop, so you may have no choice but to add the preferment at the autolyse stage.
Advice
Advice differs so much from person to person. This is why I only share the fact that I've been told something and that it works (or doesn't) - "for me."
I work mostly with high hydration preferments. Perhaps this is why I find what was told to me to be valid.
Hope this clarifies my statement.
Personally, I'd exclude the
Personally, I'd exclude the yeast during the autolyse step. The whole purpose is to trigger gluten development, and neither the yeast nor the salt will help, there. Meanwhile, including the yeast will increase the chance that you'll overproof the dough, at which point all your efforts will be for naught.
That said, metropical, is there a reason you don't go for a shorter, same-day autolyse at room temperature? I've certainly found that gluten develops *much* quicker at room temperature than in the fridge (having done experiments with refridgerated versus room temperature overnight poolishes... the latter turns into a thick, gluey mass, while the former keeps it's pancake-batter-like consistency). And in this article:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/lessons/tentips_8_autolyse
They suggest a simple 20-30 minute autolyse at room temp.
I tried the 30 min option at
I tried the 30 min option at room temp a few times. Did nothing for my bread. But the overnight refridge definitely gives it more character and for whatever reason requires less yeast added. 1 tsp as compared to 2.5 tsp.
'course, it may be the type of dough. This is with my multigrain with a grape starter.
go figure
give me liberty and a 5lb bag of flour
From a video I saw by French
From a video I saw by French baker, Calvel, if your using cake yeast you add it after the autolyse, but if your using dry, you add it before the autolyse to allow it time to wake up. And as far as the pre ferment, he added that after the autolyse. He was making baguettes so I dont know if there is a difference with higher hydration doughs , and from what I have read here Calvel is the bee's knaees of bread baking. So his method is what I've been folowing. If you go on to the CIA's websight...thats the culinary institute of america, not the central (lack) of intelligence agency, you can download the pod cast for just a couple bucks. It's really cool to watch
more on autolyse
Of the bread people I’ve worked with, only one, a French baker back in 1994 used the autolyse technique. We made seven or maybe eight doughs, the last one being straight dough baguette using autolyse.
As it was the final dough, we could let it rest in the mixing bowl covered with a cloth.
Autolyse is a wonderful tool to have in bread making but it does takes up time and space.
Raymond Calvel is credited with this technique, which gives you the advantage
of a shorter mix time ( more aroma and flavour; better crumb) and greater extensibility… so it’s way easier (as an example)
to shape baguettes.
Basically, you mix your flour and water briefly, then let it rest 20 – 30 minutes.
During this rest time the flour fully hydrates and the gluten starts to develop.
You don’t want to add yeast because it would start to ferment and acidify
the dough.
You don’t want to add preferments because it too, will acidify the dough.
You don’t want to add salt because it will tighten the gluten.
Enzymes that are at work in autolyse (in this case, proteolytic) work best in a more neutral environment. That’s the reasoning to avoid yeast, salt and pre ferments.
Now, if you’re using instant yeast, you add it to autolyse at the beginning
because as richawatt mentioned, it takes a bit of time to get going.
I use autolyse for my French breads at home for a few reasons
but mostly because it saves me kneading and the dough rest period (autolyse) gives me
time to do other things.
Most of the time I get lazy and add ALL the ingredients, including salt
After the initial mix, I autolyse between 30 –60 minutes but it’s usually an hour.
It’s amazing how much the dough develops
on its own.
A few brief folds, and the dough is done.
I never really tuned into the “no need to knead , or artisan bread in five minutes“ but autolyse would seem to share certain similarities.
Now, at this point, I can continue to process my dough and bake it in a few more hours but if I get busy, I can refrigerate it
for an hour, punch, then bulk ferment and the next day shape, proof and bake
or I can shape it now, retard it overnight to bake the next day at my convenience.
Autolyse…try it, you’ll like it.
H
Autolyse
Well, this thread sent me back to Clavel. When you look at his formulas in the book "Le Gout du Pain" he is somewhat inconsistent as to when just what is added to the autolyse. Sometimes salt is held back - sometimes not.
Professor Clavel was a distinguished baker and I'm sure he would adapt as situations arose.
However I cannot help but recall one of my teachers (who, I believe, had more than a passing knowledge of Professor Clavel's work) chuckling incredulously “And you don’t add the poolish in to the autolyse? Now I’ve heard it all.” There are a few moments in life burned into my brain. That moment is one of them.
So, the method works for me. The more I learn about this craft of bread baking the more I subscribe to the saying “Chacun á son gout!”
Autolyse
proth5:
I know what you’re saying.
Jeff Yankellow, member of Team USA 2005 made a traditional
baguette recipe that I still look at once in a while just because it’s so…
totally next planet.
Flour, water, salt yeast; okay, but
then JY includes a liquid levain, sponge and poolish all fermented
separately.
On top of that, part of the dough is used as 12-hour autolyse.
It all eventually gets thrown into a bowl, mixed briefly and allowed
a rest of 15 minutes ( autolyse again) then the salt and yeast are added.
With all this fermenting going on, talk about room for error or
dough complications waiting to happen.
This guy is such a pro though; I don’t think it fazed him for a second.
But then again, he is world class.
Gold medal, best bread in the World, 2005.
Pretty nice feather to have in your cap.
H
bringing this thread up
because my dough for j hamelmans 5 grain sourdough rye is just "autolysing" or so i think. I did add the soaker and the sourdough because of laziness, i didn't add the yeast, though. i will dissolve the instant dry yeast in a tbsp. or so of water, add it (and the honey) and not be scared of the mess. but does any of you have and idea of adding other ingredients, such as sugar, fat or so? or is this the only way?
First off, don't dissolve
First off, don't dissolve the instant yeast! It hates it went you do that. :) Just add the yeast directly to the dough and kneed it in. I've used this same technique for salt, and it works just fine (I assume the same is true of sugar). I've never tried to add fat into a recipe after the fact, though.