The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Pugliese

JuneHawk's picture
JuneHawk

Pugliese

Hi. 

 

I did a search for this but didn't find relevant information.  I am making pugliese for the first time, following The Bread Bible's recipe called Brianna's Pugliese.  The Kitchenaid is kneading right now but the dough seems very wet. It's not coming off the sides of the bowl at all and I'm wondering if this is normal.  The recipe says the dough will be very sticky but I'm not sure if it's supposed to be THIS sticky.  Any info would be greatly appreciated!

 

June 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, June. 

I've never made this bread, so take this with that in mind: Pugliese is a classic "rustic" bread and is supposed to be made with a very wet dough. I don't know how wet your dough is, but, if it were not sticky, it would definitely be too dry. 

I hope it turns out well for you! 

David

JuneHawk's picture
JuneHawk

It's very wet.  I kneaded it for 7 minutes and it did not come off the sides of the bowl at all.  It is rising now, we'll see how the shaping goes and how much more flour I'll need to add.  I knew it was supposed to be a wet though but having nothing to compare it to, I just don't know how wet exactly.

 

June 

JuneHawk's picture
JuneHawk

For reference, it looks something like this (not my picture)

 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I don't have the book from which you are baking this bread, but it has a good reputation. I'd go with the book's instructions for guidance. 

FWIW, Peter Reinhart has a formula for Pugliese in BBA. He says, "The challenge for anyone tackling this bread is getting comfortable with wet dough." He goes on to say it's worth the struggle because the bread is so wonderful you will want to make it all the time. (That sounds like my response to Nury's "Light Rye," which is also a very wet dough which makes a wonderful bread.)  

Reinhart's formula is for an 85% hydration dough. That's really wet! 

It sounds like you are on the right track, June. Hang in there! And show us pictures of how it turns out. 

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Peter Reinhart "tackling" a giant mound of 85% hydration dough. OMG! 

It oughta be the photo on the cover of his next book! 

David

JuneHawk's picture
JuneHawk

This book says it's 78% hydration.  Not as wet as Peter's but pretty wet still I guess.  I'm about to shape.  Wish me luck!

 

June 

LindyD's picture
LindyD

I been baking Jason's Quick Coccodrillo Ciabatta Bread quite often. The hydration is 95%. The dough scares me sometimes as it wobbles towards the edge of the breadboard, but it does come off the sides of the bowl during the KA kneading.

Good luck shaping, June. I tend to plop the ciabatta and hope for the best.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, June. 

The difference in hydration might or might not be "real." Reinhart calculates dough hydration without including the water (or flour) in the biga, which is very low hydration. He gives a percentage for the biga as a whole. If another recipe calculates the percentages including the individual ingredients in the biga, the hydration would come out lower. (Not the clearest explanation I've ever written!) 

Good luck with shaping. A hint: When shaping a wet dough, keep your hands wet by dipping them frequently in a bowl of water. The dough won't stick to your hands as much.  

David

JuneHawk's picture
JuneHawk

Well, I couldn't actually shape it into a ball as the recipe called for but it's now in a colander in refrigerator. That was some sticky dough! I'm hoping it doesn't stick to the flour cloth. Hey, if nothing else, I will have learned something (hopefully!) from this whole thing.

I hope to have tasty bread for brunch! Thanks everybody!

 

June

Jolly's picture
Jolly

June---I have Rose's book "The Bread Bible" and have used it extensibley. So, I know her thoughts very well.

Mixer Method
In her bread book Rose does say the dough is very wet dough and best mixed in stand mixer or bread machine for this reason. When the dough is baked it very light and full of holes. So it should be a very wet dough. And the dough should start pulling away from sides of the bowl.

Rose has instructions for mixing up the dough by Hand, or in a Bread Machine, and using a Stand Mixer.I've since learned that you read through all the info...used on all methods. For there are other clues in each set of instructions.

Hand Method Instructions---she makes mention (the dough will starts to pulls away from the sides of the bowl). That's one clue that she does not make mention of in the Mixer Method and it should be in there. Since I have baked up many of her bread recipes this one step is included in almost all her recipes. In this particular recipe you will fine it in the (Hand Method).

Mixer Method---There is another clue. If you're using a Kitchen Aid Stand Mixer you're going to mix the dough on # 2 Low Speed for about 1 minute until (the flour is moistened enough to form a rough dough), and scrape down any bits of dough.

In order for the dough to be rough it will need more flour. Then she makes mention of scraping down any bits of dough from the mixing bowl. So that indicates that the mixture should be forming a rough looking ball of dough. And bits of the dough should be clinging to sides of the bowl not a wet batter. At this point the dough should still be tacky or sticky when you touch the dough with your finger.

OK!...In another recipe...she makes mention of adding the liquid until the flour is moistened enough to form a rough dough. So, you can try that too.

In the substitute picture---the dough is not rough looking nor is it beginning to pull away from the sides of the mixing bowl. The dough is still very wet clinging to the sides of the bowl, and its not clinging to the bowl in bits and pieces. It's apparent to me that you still need to add more flour.

Adding More Flour---Rose usually will suggest adding 1 TBSP at a time to reach desired consistency.

In learning to use The Bread Bible it's a good idea to read through the whole book to learn her basic instructions.

Digital Scale---Use a digital scale in whipping up any of Rose's recipe. If you're not using a digital scale it will be much harder to adjust the recipe.

TIP ON MAKING A ROUGH DOUGH---Another good way to learn how to make a rough dough is to make her pizza dough recipes.

NOTE---When I get ready to use one of her recipes I'll type the whole recipe out and place it in my cooking program. Each time I use the recipe I adapt it into my own thoughts until the recipe is mind. That's how I have fully learned to understand Roses thoughts on different recipes. You can learn quite a bit about baking doing this over a period of years.

Jolly

 

JuneHawk's picture
JuneHawk

Jolly, that's a lot of great info.  I was very tempted to put the whole thing back in the mixer and and add more flour but I restrained myself.  Now I'm thinking I should have done it.  We'll see what happens.  Live and learn.

 

June 

Jolly's picture
Jolly

Hi June:

Yes, you could have placed it back in the mixer and added more flour. I've done this with success. Ok!...Next time around you will know exactly how to do this.

Read through her pizza recipe so you can learn more on making a rough dough and how to handle it.

If you need anymore help I'll be happy to explain more of Rose's thoughts From "The Bread Bible." 

Let me know how the Brianna's Pugliese turned out.

 

Jolly 

 

JuneHawk's picture
JuneHawk

Well, that flopped!  It rose just fine overnight but it was just too weak to hold it's shape and completely deflated when I turned it out onto the pizza peel.  It got some oven spring but no where near enough to make the end result good enough.  I'm not giving up though, I will try it again!

 

June 

Jolly's picture
Jolly

The dough simply didn't have enough flour.

OK! So,now you've learned something from this baking experience. And you got the right additude (don't give up).

When I first learned how to bake sourdough breads I kept baking until I produced a well risen loaf. It took about a week of flops.

The Bread bible is a good book to learn from, it filled with scads of baking info...So, keep moving foward in your bread baking.

 

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

June,

Your efforts witht the wet dough are shared. It has more stiction than super glue and makes cleanup a detailing effort...,

One question that I have about wet doughs and that is how to form a skin on the loaf that's in tension. Wet dough just can't be formed by any traditional method that I know of. One foggy thought comes back to me, though, is one in which the wet dough, held in plastic bin boxes, was pulled or stretched vertically (around 3 feet!) by the baker every 45 minutes of the primary fermentation. This was done three times before the dough was cut and formed, placed on a couch for secondary fermentation before baking. Whether this was a sourdough or baker's yeast dough I don't remember but I suspect baker's yeast as the finished bread was fairly diaphanous. The upshot of all this is whether the pulling stretch and layment of the dough back into the bin box prior to cutting and forming provides enough biased tension in the dough to serve as a retaining skin for the final proofing fermentation and bake. I think this may be one of those not so obvious "secrets" of wet dough...,

Wild-Yeast

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The wettest dough I've worked with is Jewish corn rye. This dough is a mix of rye sour and first clear flour. It ferments in a water-saturated environment, is formed and baked without proofing. The dough is more like wet cement than a usual bread dough. 

The shaping technique for round loaves is to use wet hands and softly stroke the surface of the loaf downward with both hands repeatedly until the surface is very smooth. The loaves are then gently and quickly transferred to a peel, heavily sprinkled with coarse corn meal, and loaded into the oven. 

Norm (nbicomputers) described the actual technique used in the bakery a few months ago. I described the home baking technique from Greenstein's "Secrets of a Jewish Baker."  

David

Tom Kurth's picture
Tom Kurth

I have made both pugliese recipes in TBB recently with wonderful results, The only problem I have had is with flying crusts. Until Christmas no recipe from TBB had turned out well for me. My wife, dear girl, gave me a digital scale for Christmas, you see, and that has made all the difference (like the road not taken). I have been using improvised cloches for shaping the loaves for these and other pugliese recipes--appropriately sized bowls lined with heavily flour dusted tea towels. I'm not a careful baker by which I mean I'm not terribly precise, but I have come to understand the importance of precise measurements. Hope this is helpful.