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Weekend Baking-crumb added

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ehanner's picture
ehanner

Weekend Baking-crumb added

Sorry Jane no Spelt!
Sorry Jane no Spelt!
SD&Rye's
SD&Rye's

SD Crumb
SD Crumb

I have been trying to adopt Floyd's schedule and always whip up a few interesting things over the weekend. Having a teenage daughter who is active in school activities means I often find myself playing chauffeur to the friends instead of paying attention to my bread projects. Last Thursday, Friday I made some of the best sourdough bread I have ever eaten.

A few days back I decided to try Dan Lepards suggestion for using a blend of flours to feed my white starter or mother. I also have been using Peter Reinhart's suggestion of using a hydration and flour ratio of 1:3:4 when feeding the Lepard blend of 70% AP:20% WW: 10% Rye. The result has been spectacular in every sense. My starter is more vigorous than ever before. I routinely get a 4 fold rise in just 4-5 hours at 80F and the sour flavor is outstanding. Last week I made a couple loaves of Davids Wharf Bread that I speed-ed up slightly and it was every bit as my memory of the origional item in San Fran. So, I'm a happy camper. My family is enjoying the bread and I've made enough repeat batches that I know it's here to stay.
The one minor drawback to the starter maintenance and feeding regimen is that it needs to be at room temp and that means it needs to be fed daily. I haven't played around with cooling it during the week and jump starting it Thursday but I'm sure that won't be a problem. The blend does remarkable things to starter activity and flavor.

The first batch today was a double of my favorite Deli Rye. I changed up that slightly by building up a 700 gram batch of 100% rye starter during the week to use instead of the preferment in the recipe. I had to run the kids to an event so it got slightly poofy and maxed out my sheet pan with paper. It tastes wonderful but not very authentic looking. I'll take flavor over form anytime.

Finally the last loaf is a 2.6 Lb Janedo's basic bread sort of, without the spelt. I thought I had a bag but when the mise-en-place check list came out. Oh well! I used a combination of KA French style and All Trumps that was inoculated with 100 grams of my super starter and 1/4 teaspoon of IDY.Normal salt and a scant T of Malt. I could see the WW specks from the starter but otherwise it was a smooth mass of dough. I have started sprinkling sesame seeds on the tacky dough and covering it with saran brushed with a lightly oiled towel so I can remove it later.

The seeds are an interesting addition. I find that if I put them on early and tip the dough into a basket or cover with saran they become embedded in the dough. Not only do they not fall off during baking and cutting they add a terrific full flavor to the crust. I have made a lot of Italian bread that had almost no added flavor from the sesame and this is way better. The seeds seem to toast in place on the crust, just perfect.

There you have it. I had planned to do the raisin cinnamon loaf but that will have to wait for fresh batteries!

Eric

ADDED Crumb image by edit. Sorry about the crumb image not being a very good photo. The bread was much better than it looks here.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Such wonder for my eyes do appear! OK, you happy camper, you convinced me, i'll try the blend.

You do know I have only soooo much space in my coffer.

Mini O

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Wow! Your breads look fantastic!

I did my every day bread this weekend because hubby was going to have a fit with my daily "experiments".

I haven't done an american rye yet, but should try soon. I'd like to manage a good result with an american sourdough recipe. I just can't seem to do it. Or I am managing but noone here likes it. Strange!

Jane 

swtgran's picture
swtgran

Beautiful!  I am desiring a slice right now, especially since my grain mill is ill and we are eating white breads, only, right now. 

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Lovely.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric. 

The SF SD boule and the ryes look just gorgeous! I'm really happy you got your wharf bread the way you like it.  

I'm very impressed with the performance you report for that feeding formula. I'm going to give it a try for the coming weekend. 

BTW, I couldn't find the crumb photos.

David

cheesecake man's picture
cheesecake man

Being a little ignorant on the ratios that are described above would you please tell me to what does the hydration and flour ratio 1:3:4 refer to?  Obviously there is water and flour but which is which and what does the third number represent?

Your bread looks fantastic! 

Thank you in advance for comments from a novice. 

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

My Editor just kicked me in the leg, across 2100 miles, to point out that I had mis-typed the blend of flour that Dan Lepard suggests. The correct ratio is 70 parts AP or white flour, 20 parts Whole Wheat and 10 parts Rye. Hence, 70:20:10.

The Peter Reinhart suggestion to feeding hydration of 1:3:4 refers to 1 part mother or old starter, 3 parts water and 4 parts flour. That gives you what I would call a moderately firm starter that becomes almost batter like after 12 hours.

I'll post the crumb photo later today.

Eric

possum-liz's picture
possum-liz

Question is this by weight or volume?

ehanner's picture
ehanner

By Weight.

cheesecake man's picture
cheesecake man

Thanks for the reply - it really helps!

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Beautiful bread Eric. Time for me to make your Favorite Deli Rye again. Just to be sure I'm following you right...you used 700g of a 100% rye starter instead of the starter in your original recipe?

 

Again, great job! weavershouse

ehanner's picture
ehanner

You know, I would just stick with the recipe in the post.  I was experimenting with that and it got a little out of hand I think. But yes I built up a 700 gram 100% rye starter and replaced the preferment with that. I made it 700 instead of 650 so I would have some remaining for the rye mother. I only used 650 grams in the mix. The remaining amount is being built up as we speak. 

Side note on this: I bought some ground dutch caraway seed from Penzies the last time I was in there. I added a Tablespoon to the dough in addition to the 20 g of whole seeds. It has a nice but not overpowering aroma.

Eric

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

I think I'll try the 100% rye starter just because I have it but it will have to be refreshed. I just got an order from Penzey's that included their Dutch caraway whole seeds. They're so good. I grind them in my electric coffee grinder as needed.

 

Your rye breads are so beautiful in that photo. Yum.                                                  weavershouse

StephenJ's picture
StephenJ

Oh My !!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric. 

You didn't post comments on how Jane's bread turned out. I've made it with a liquid starter only. I wonder what effect using a firmer starter like yours would have. Tell us about it. 

David

mariana's picture
mariana

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion about flour blend for feeding starter, Eric. I will switch to it to feed mine. Your breads look outstanding, such an extraordinary beauty. Congratulations!

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Thank you Mariana, coming from you that's a complement. I'm about to tone down the percentages of WW and Rye by half. The activity eats up the available food so fast that in 24 hours it's completely flat, no structure remains. But, one feeding and it's back strong.

Nice to see you here again.
Eric

mariana's picture
mariana

 

Eric, thanks. I also feed once every 24h or even more seldom. My solution is stiffer starter (more food, lower acidity) and higher ratio. I don't even add the old starter to the new mixture. I add a piece of the old starter to water and mix a little with a spoon, then strain. Then I use this light "milky" water as a basis for the new mixture with flour. It has enough bacteria and yeast cells to continue the line, but greatly reduces the acidity and has none of the old, deteriorated gluten or used up starch granules.

Marni's picture
Marni

I have never heard of feeding a starter this way (although my starter experience is admittedly minimal).  What is the benefit of removing the old gluten and starch?  How does that effect either the newly fed starter or even more so, the next loaf?  So you make a very dense starter using this water and your flour mixture?  Does it take a full 24 hours to be useful or ready to be fed again?  I hope you don't mind all the questions, I'm still learning.

Marni

mariana's picture
mariana

Marni, hi!

When you keep your starter at room T all the time and feed it only once a day, then proteolitic enzymes and acids contidion gluten in the dough to the point of liquefying it, if you are not careful.  So, this gluten is no longer useful, it will not help you build a strong elastic dough that keeps its shape nicely and is capable of huge oven spring. The same happens with starch. Amylolitic enzymes in flour break down starch into sugars and yeast consumes these sugars.

Normally, in a bakery environment, the starter is fed 2-6 times per day. If you want to feed your starter only once per day and for it to be ready to be used in baking by the end of that period you would have to greatly increase the ratio of food to old starter and do something about that liquefied gluten and depleted starch. That is why I "wash" the old starter or just the walls of the pot where the old piece of starter was with water and add flour to it.

 The issue here is that starter (ripe sourdough) contributes from 5% to 70% of all flour to the bread dough, depending on the recipe, so you really want it to be high quality sour dough with gluten in top notch condition and abundand food for yeast and lactic bacteria.  Starter is not just a source of flavor and microorganisms, it is a part of the dough itself and must be structurally sound, you  see?  

 It is not VERY dense. A consistency of firm dough yes, but not a 'dry dough' consistency.

Yes, 24 hours later it is ripe, at the maximum height, has proper pH, and is not 'deteriorated' in any sence, and can become part of any dough - yeasted or sourdough.

Janedo's picture
Janedo

That is VERY interesting and now I understand why sometimes my liquid starter gets too liquidy. I also understand now why it's good to throw away a portion of it and then rebuilding it. Since I've started avid experimenting I don't have a big bowl of liquid starter out all the time. I have a firm, a whole wheat and a white liquid in the fridge and take out a portion that I then build on. If I want to do other baking from it I take out the whole bowl of liquid white, give it a big feed and leave it on the counter.

Thanks for the info,

Jane 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Mariana, thank you for that suggestion. The culture is so abundant that just a little wash from the old and the bacteria stays active. I'm guessing the result is a more mild and more flavorful bread. What a good idea Have you ever measured the pH of the water after the wash? I'll try that today. Thank you for that Mariana!

Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Mariana, that's what you meant with "washing the starter!"   Thank you,  I get it now. 

Mini O

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric.

I fed my starter once last night according to the recommendations you cited for flour mix and starter/water/flour ratio. I used Guisto's Baker's Choice for AP, KA Organic WW and Guisto's fine ground whole rye flours. 

The starter was a very firm starter, last fed with high extraction flour at least two weeks ago. It looked healthy with no hooch, but it should have been pretty sleepy and hungry.

OMG!! This morning (8 or 10 hours after feeding), the starter had more than tripled and looked like it would keep on growing! I stuck it in the frige and went off. This evening, 10 hours later, it is at the same volume as this morning; it has not collapsed and smells heavenly.  

I will be building my levains for Saturday's baking tomorrow evening. I'm thinking of giving the starter just a snack rather than using Reinhart's 1:3:4 ratio. Or, it looks happy enough to sit refrigerated for 36 hours (This morning to tomorrow evening.) 

What do you think?

David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David,

So glad to hear your starter is on the way to the yeasty Olympics. It's pretty remarkable if I do say so. I haven't to happy with leaving it without feeding after 24 hours at room temp. Cooling would of course slow it down but to be sure I would feed within 12 hours of planned use.

I'm looking forward to seeing your results.

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hmmm ... Well, from past experience, using a firm starter that has been fed then refrigerated for 2 days has always worked well, but I'll feed it tomorrow morning before leaving for the office and build the levain tomorrow night. David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I am finding these discussion full of such valuable information! You have tried my liquid starter technique and now I'm getting some fantastic results with a firm starter.

I made up a firm starter the other day and tonight I am going to take it out of the fridge and give it a feed of about 100g flour and enough water to make it thinner but not totally liquid. I've done this a couple time this week and the results were spectacular! It can sit in the fridge for a week and just need a good feeding, be left out all night and be ready to make bread.

David, when you say you're going to build it tonight, what do you mean? Which recipe are you following? 

So, are you all going to go on a weekend baking frenzy? Can't wait to see what you bake up.

Jane 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Jane,
I have a serious case of "The grass is always greener on the other side of the pasture". This malady causes me to want to understand the likes of Calvel, Poilane, Kayser and other Frenchmen who made a name for themselves using subtle techniques.

My latest interest is in learning how to extract the mild nutty and fragrant aroma's that the old french bakers were able to deliver. Think cinnamon, honey and cloves.

What are you baking now?

I'm hoping David has a successful bake.

Eric

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I think the only real way to share is to actually be able to taste each other's bread. The picture you just posted of the bakery bread looks exactly like the artisanal bread that I bought last week to "compare". It looked exactly like that... but we found it absolutely tasteless. It was a pain de campagne, so basically white flour with maybe a bit of rye. You couldn't really tell it was sourdough either. I hope yours is better!

Maybe we are all probably searching for something different. David spoke of his "target bread". David, could you explain what it is, or was that just for baguettes that you spoke about it?

I started the recipe for the Acme's rustic baguettes from Glezer's Artisan baking. The metric measures are a bit off I think because the initial "scrap dough" was way too tough and I had to modify it. But then it could be the flour problem again! We'll see. They're made with scrap dough and a poolish. The local baker sold me a huge hunk of yeast for 4 euros and I put most of it in the freezer but some in the fridge. The trick is figuring out how much to use and determining its activeness. I like the way it works. 

Then I'm also going to do another bread using the old dough method with the firm starter I did up the other day. Simply feed it this evening and then do a straight method. I haven't decided which flour but I'm thinking a country loaf with T80 and a bit of rye.

"My latest interest is in learning how to extract the mild nutty and fragrant aroma's that the old french bakers were able to deliver. Think cinnamon, honey and cloves."

That describes the bread I made this week with the old dough method using the T110 and T80 or 65 (can't remember) but it was almost spicy! I'm going to put it on my blog to talk about the technique so when I do, I'll show it to you. 

I also want to do something sweet because all the kids are here this weekend and Monday which is a national holiday. I make bread basically 6 out of 7 days if not every. It's just part of daily life like cooking and laundry, etc. 

Jane 

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane. 

I believe I was speaking of a specific bread; maybe it was the baguettes "monge." The more general concept is that, when I make any bread, I have expectations for the crust, crumb, flavor and appearence. If the result deviates from this, I want to figure out how to change the recipe or procedure to get closer to the "bullseye."

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane. 

I am going to be making 2 or 3 different breads which call for a "firm starter" to make the levain. The "recipe" for the starter build, i.e., feeding, is the one Eric posted as recommended by Reinhart, I believe: 1:3:4 - Starter: Water: Flour. For the "flour," I am using Dan Lepard's mix, which Eric posted in the same message - a mix of AP, WW and Rye flours. 

I am definitely going to make Dan Lepard's French Country Bread. I may also make Hamelman's Miche, ponte-a-calliere. I also plan on making the Semolina with currents, pine nuts and fennel bread posted by susanfnp here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4740/semolina-bread-currants-fennel-pine-nuts

In addition, I am feeding my white rye starter to make Jewish Sour Rye and maybe another rye. 

Whew! I dunno how much of this will actually happen. It's like the military adage: "A battle plan never survives first contact with the enemy."

David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

OK Eric, I've been feeding my rye starter now for 5 consecutive days with 7:2:1 flours making firm starters (to survive our warm temps and 24 hours out) and now have more bread than I can eat.  I just can't make bread every day.  I made two firm starters today using that mix, one rye only and the other spelt.  In a few days I will compare their flavors.  These last few days been having fun with various flours and today had a dough that smelled like curry.  Woke up this afternoon to curry lerking in the kitchen.  10 corn flour and ap what an interesting mix! 

What's in 10 corn flour?  ww, corn, oats, rice, buckwheat, rye, spelt, barley, triticale & millet.  I divided it into two dough balls and rolled them out like pizzas.  Smeared 'em with tomato sauce, spices and sprinkled with cheese.  Cut each into 6 sections with a pizza roller and rolled them up like crossants, brushed with olive oil and sprinkled with pretzel salt.

They just came out of the oven.   I can't write any more gotta go eat one.

Mini O