Giant holes in loaf :(
I’ve found this site to be a great resource so I finally made an account! I’m a sourdough beginner - this is my fourth loaf. The first two turned out ok, kinda flat but decent crumb and tasted good. But the last two loafs have had giant holes on the bottom and I’m not sure why! The first one was comically huge, the second one not nearly as bad (pics attached). I’ve read in previous threads that it’s possibly due to too short of a bulk fermentation period, not sure if that’s the case here. I’ll share everything that might be relevant, any insight is much appreciated!
My starter is pretty healthy, it doubles in size after less than a day. I feed it once a day (1:2:2 with equal parts AP and dark rye flour) if left on the counter, twice if left in the oven w/ the light on (the ambient temp in my kitchen is rarely above 70F so the temp difference is significant).
The bulk ferment for the past 2 loaves have been for about 4-5 hours in the oven; I’ve attached a pic of what the most recent one looked like just before I shaped/proofed it. It looked done to me; there are bubbles under the surface, it was super soft/stretchy and the edges were slightly domed (but the top was still kind of flat - not sure how round it should be). After I did the pre-shape and shape, I put it in the fridge to proof overnight for about 12 hours. It seemed to pass the poke test before I baked it. I also attached a picture of the recipe I’m following.
From the look at the stage just before shaping and the baked loaf then i'd say it's under fermented.
For now don't shape till the dough has doubled.
Your bread behaves like pita in the oven, ballooning and forming a pocket at the bottom crust. It usually happens when the baking surface it too hot.
See for example this thick pita. It does the same as your bread, it separates forming a thin brown bottom crust and a thick bready top.
Either do not preheat your Dutch oven to 500F at all, or after preheating it, lower your oven temperature significantly to bake bread. 485F is too much. Bread in a Dutch oven does well at 425F, 30 min covered, then 20 min uncovered.
I’ll try that with the next loaf, thanks!
You say you feed your starter once every 24 hours, if left at room temperature, at a ratio of 1:2:2. I don't think that's enough. Your starter may be suffering.
From your bulk ferment photo it doesn't look ready at all. A side shot will be more helpful. While the second photo looks like a better crumb, gaping cavern aside, the top photo of the crumb doesn't also looks under fermented.
While a too hot oven can cause the pita effect it's not the only issue here, I think.
I don’t think my starter is suffering, although there are definitely more enthusiastic starters out there. 1:2:2 is a pretty common ratio I see recommended for a once daily feeding. If it was any more active (I see some people saying it needs to peak after 3-4 hours; if mine did that I’d have to feed it 2-3x a day which seems excessive to me). I have kids so I’m going for as low maintenance as possible :) That being said I’m trying a 1:3:3 ratio for the next few days to beef it up before my next loaf, maybe that’ll make a difference. Is there a better ratio you’d recommend?
What signs do you recommend I look for in a well fermented dough? I compared mine to photos I saw online and it looked pretty similar. And what happens if its been 6, 8, or more hours and dough hasn’t doubled? Is it a lost cause? And a lot of people say to aim for only 25% or 50% growth, that doubling is actually counter-productive and only for yeast breads. So there’s a lot of conflicting advice out there.
24 hours to peak at 1:2:2 then something is wrong. If it's peaking after 4-6 hours and you are only feeding it once every 24 hours then something will go wrong.
At the ratios you've given it shouldn't take too long to double. You have quite a lot of pre-ferment. A dough doesn't have to double but it's ok for it to double. 25-50% growth means more time for the final proof with less handling allowing for a different crumb. But the final proof will take longer and should be left till ready so whatever the case it has enough time. If you're under fermenting then for now aiming to double will be a way to fix that. If your starter is misfiring and/or your leaven isn't mature enough then as long as you wait for the dough to double you can get away with it. If it's taking too long to double, or it doesn't, then something is off. Your maintenance has probably encouraged a sluggish starter.
Are the photos of two different breads?
Yes they’re two different loaves, same recipe. I’m going to try a different recipe that has lower baking temps & try to achieve a better fermentation. I’ve also read that it’s a possible shaping issue (causing blisters to form on the bottom which then turn into the massive caves). So fixing that, along with strengthening my starter for the next few days, will be the top of my list for the next bake. Thanks for your detailed response.
If I leave to proof overnight in the fridge, does that affect how long the dough should be left to grow for the BF stage? & how long is too long to double?
The first photo looks under fermented but the second photo has a good crumb ignoring the huge cavern. I think two different issues here. I think two different issues here.
First of all don't neglect your starter. Either keep it at room temperature fed or refrigerate. That will keep it healthy. And then there's the baking. Try following Mariana's advice of reducing the oven temperature.
See what happens under a new maintenance schedule and how much it speeds up. Right now it seems to be a little sluggish. As for how long it should take there are few factors. How much starter, how warm it is etc. For now try fixing those two things. When refrigerating give it a feed or two, making sure it's active, before baking with it for more consistent results.
For a low maintenance starter I put mine in the refrigerator after it rises about half way. I have kids too so I completely understand. :) I tried to bake yesterday and I'm just now getting around to it today (fingers crossed). I took my starter out of the refrigerator from a feeding last night and it's still only about half way to doubling, so I'll probably get to bake at nap time while my other one does homework.
I get so torn between wanting my stater to be low maintenance and wanting it to be super strong all the time haha. It seems to be doing ok but it definitely could be stronger. I fear that if I put it in the fridge I’ll make it too sleepy and it’ll take forever to kick back up again lol but the strategy you described does seem ideal when trying to bake with little ones around! I’ll have to try it out soon I think
From 3 year rookie in sourdough - may I suggest that when you do your initial shape four a 20-30 minute rest try popping those big air bubble at both stages - if that doesn’t work. Also as mentioned before let it proof until the dough as at least doubles.
I tried a trick I read online about dropping the dough on the counter several times to pop bubbles and then letting it rest. Seemed to do the trick :) although I don’t think I’ve nailed the BF since the loaf came out kind of flat - had a decent crumb though
A few things jump out at me.
1) The pic of your dough in the bowl looks like it hasn't even begun fermenting yet. I'm not sure what stage that was in your process.
2) I read through the other posts, you mention your starter taking a long time with a 1:2:2 feed. To me, this is your #1 problem. There is a lot of confusion surrounding starter feeding. You cannot simply feed it a fixed ratio at a fixed time schedule. You need to observe how your starter is reacting to your feeds. You can build a super healthy starter that requires little maintenance, but you have to pay attention to what it is doing in the early stages. The most important thing is to refresh it once it has peaked. Not before, and not too long after. If it is taking 12 hours to peak with a 1:2:2 feeding at room temp, the yeast population is not very dense. The good news is, you can build it up to be very strong AND ALSO have a minimal feeding schedule, you just have to adjust your ratio so that it peaks every 24h, (once it's ready). Since you are busy, you can retain a small amount (say 7 or 10g and feed it 1:5:5 or even 1:10:10) and it will take much longer to peak. But once it's peaking, it'll be ready to bake with.
For your next feeding, I would retain 10g, and feed it 50g flour and 50g water. Wait until it fully peaks to feed it again, even if it takes 2 days. Repeat that 2-3 times. You will see that the rise and fall will start to accelerate. That means your yeast density is building up. Once you get to a point where a 1:2:2 will triple in size in about 5-6 hours, you will have a healthy starter, and you can throttle back its build speed using higher ratios so you don't need to babysit it. It may seem counter-intuitive, but remember that the small amount of starter you are using to propagate the next one is a highly-concentrated hyper-active yeast culture.
Work on getting that starter up to speed and the rest will follow.
I am a newbie, so take it with a grain of salt, but...
200g leaven for 450g flour seems like a lot. Most recipes I see use about 20% leaven-to-flour ratio (or less, depending upon your conditions), which for your recipe would be 90g. I'm not sure why excessive leaven would result in the big pockets you've got, though.
Best, DiDi