My never-ending quest for a more open crumb...
Hi everyone, and happy holidays to all of you!
Here is what my loaves invariably look like, whatever the length of the bulk fermentation (usually between 8h and 9h30 at 27C in a proofing box, with 10% inoculation), the number of S&F/coil folds or the tightness of my shaping.
I am very happy with those loaves, of course, but would love to get a little more open crumb, more airy if it makes sense, a bit less dense.
The only thing I try to stick to is the hydration as the flour test showed that my AP flour (Anita's AP organic) could not handle very well more than 75%.
Here is the process I follow:
86% AP Anita's organic / 13.3% protein
7% Whole wheat La Milanaise
7% Spelt flour Anita's
75% hydration
10% levain inoculation
2% salt
Levain built overnight at RT - Ratio 1:5:3.5 - Starter is 2 years old-ish, seems to be active (I keep it on the dry side; it is kept in the fridge during the week and is fed with 100% Whole rye)
Fermentolyse in the morning for 1 h
Dough kneaded 12mn with Ankarsrum mixer, Speed level 3
BF: between 8 h and 9h30 (9h30 in the picture showed here) in total (including fermentolyse time) at 27C in a proofing box
The dough not being very hydrated, I keep usually do 2 coil folds only
Pre-shaping - rest 10mn at RT - Shaping then fridge overnight (usually between 13 and 15h at 3C)
Baked in preheated DO at 220C for 40mn with 2 ice cubes + 15mn without lid + 5mn out of DO
Any idea what I could tweak to get a more airy crumb???
Should I try to push a bit the hydration? Should I push the BF a bit further??
I used to have a crumb a bit more open (on the fool side too..) when I was using Robin Hood Organic AP flour (much lower in protein: around 11% I think), like this one:
Thank you!
I think they look great. BTW, while I don't doubt you on the 75%, try adding 10 or so grams more water each loaf and see how you do. I increased my hydration a little at a time, and found the bread became less dense.
I might try that, thanks!
Those are some very nice looking loaves.
The hydration has been mentioned but may be a little low given the WW and spelt in the dough. WW bran,especially, can absorb a fair amount of water and leave the rest of the dough at a lower hydration than you think. The measurements in the baker's math may say 75% but the branny bits (esp with that nice long soak) may absorb more water and leave the rest of the crumb a bit dry. So do try increasing the hydration a bit if there is WW or spelt in the dough. with the long rests you incorporate into your process, the dough should do fine. I like to put my 100% WW dough into the refrig as a sticky dough and when it comes out in the am, it is just a little tacky ( like a post-it note).
The other suggestion I have is to rest for a bit longer after the pre-shaping and see if that changes the distribution of the plentiful bubbles I see in your crumb.
Sometimes simple changes work just fine.
I did not think that such a small amount of WW and/or spelt would make a huge difference in the water absorption, but you are right, it might be worth giving it some consideration...Thanks a lot for your 2 cents!!
Reliably getting an open crumb requires every step of the fermentation process to be spot on. The easy answer of course is more water with a hydration above 80% or more. Additional water can be added in at interval stages after some gluten development rather than all at once. Try to get a more extensible dough before adding the salt. There are a few other changes that may help you get there with your current method. such as a longer bench rest and a longer time of room temperature proofing before you put them in the fridge. A minimum of 30 minutes or until the dough gets less domed and more proofed. See how far you can push the final proof and try to error on the over proofed side which will give you less oven spring but a more open crumb.
You will have a better chance of a more open crumb if you hand mix rather than a machine or do a short mix and use more folds. In my experience using a mixer to fully knead can strengthen the gluten too much which will reduce expansion and make for a tighter crumb. A light hand with a delicate touch in the final shaping is the last piece of the puzzle. HTH
Don
edit I didn’t see the post above before adding mine which makes mine seem somewhat redundant
Thanks a lot, Don, for those few new avenues to explore! I hadn't thought of the machine-mixing component which indeed tends to lead to a very tight and strong dough straight from the beginning of the process.
I'll also add a bit of proofing time at RT, even if I don't really understand the role it plays in the final loaf development...I'll start with 30mn and see how it goes!
Again thank you very much!!!!
Gaëlle
Gaëlle, firstly I think your bread looks wonderful and I think you’re doing great. The Ank does knead quite gently from the little experience I’ve had with mine (about 1 month of use) if you use the roller. So unless you’re mixing for a very long time, I’m not too worried about over mixing with the Ank. I agree with Don though that you should extend the warm/RT proof after shaping instead of placing it into the fridge right away. The act of shaping tends to degas the dough even when we’re quite gentle. This is great if you want an even more closed crumb but not great if you want open. If you’re worried that extending the proofing after shaping is going to lead to over fermentation, then whatever time you add after shaping, remove from the bulk fermentation. So if you add 1 hour of warm/RT proofing after shaping then shorten your bulk by 1 hour. Since you’re using the Ank to mix, you should be able to bassinage a bit of extra water pretty easily, if you want to go that route. If I were you, I’d change one thing at a time so you can see what that does to the crumb.
Benny
Thanks so much Benny! The hardest part, now, is going to be strong enough to change only one thing at a time as all I want to do now is to implement all the suggestions all at once ;-)
But I am fully aware of the implacable golden rule of sourdough bread baking, therefore I think I'll start by adding some proofing time at RT (1h, deducted from the BF) and start from there...Do you think that my fermentation seem on point on those loaves by the way? If not, I might add a bit more time to the BF as well...
Thanks a lot for your help, Benny, I regularly follow your baking adventures on your blog and on Instagram, and I really admire your fantastic work!
It is hard to tell from the photos, perhaps the fermentation could be extended. You could try reducing bulk by 30 mins and adding a full 60 mins to final RT/warm proof and see where that gets you.
I do hope you come back here and update us on how this goes for you. We can all learn together. Thanks for your kind comments.
Benny
Sounds like a great starting point indeed! Thanks again, Benny, and I will post my next bake here this weekend
I couldn't chose between more hydration and more proofing time, so I did both...I know, I know, it's wrong :-////
So here is what I changed:
I don't see any real big difference...what do you think???
I think your loaves look great and I think there are less dense areas of crumb to my eye. I think it is in the right direction. I see no signs that the dough is over fermenting. I would try extending fermentation another 30 mins, again your choice if during bulk versus final proof. Given the excellent structure you’re getting I’d say try adding 30 mins to the final proof and see what that gives you next.
Sounds like a great plan!! Thank you Benny :-)
I might also try to push the hydration to 80%
I think your going in the right direction with the small changes and judging by the looks of that large ear and bursting bloom. I concur with Dr Benny that more room temp final proof will help open the crumb. Did they appear larger or more relaxed than before when they went into the fridge or before they were baked? SD can get sluggish during winter time and needs more levain or time to work it’s wonders.
They were definitely more plump just before going into the fridge and also when I took them out of the fridge!
I think you can still push the hydration a little higher, btw, it might also help in addition to adjusting the fermentation.
Yep, I think so too, as at 78% they were still easily manageable...I am definitely trying 80% tomorrow!
Definitely increase the hydration really slowly, there is a point from my experience that spelt just becomes too loose when the hydration reaches a certain level. At that point it will start to lose structure and it will be hard to bake a freeform loaf. Can’t wait to see the next bake.
Benny
Even if the percentage of spelt is that low (7%) ???
My mistake I am sorry Gaelle, I forgot that your formula had that small an amount of spelt. I was thinking back to my 100% spelt bakes. Ignore my last comment.
Benny
Oh no, I won't ignore it as it is very useful info anyway for my future experiments!! Thanks Benny :-)
80% hydration + 30mn more added to proofing time compared to last batch
So here pre-shaping after 8h of BF at 27C + 1h40 proofing time, for a total of 10h20 of fermentation (non including time spent in the fridge afterwards)
Results: I find them a bit flatter and the crumb a bit less open than the previous batch, in spite of the extra water (80% instead of 78%)
I’d say back off on the hydration and repeat with the same fermentation times. The additional water caused a slight loss of structure and caused more spread. I’d go back to your previous 78% hydration and you could go a further 15-30 mins final proof.
OK, thanks Benny! I'll be back in 2 days then :-)
The further 15-30mn final proof that you recommend, is it compared to my previous 78% bake or to my last bake at 80%? Thanks Benny
I’d say compared with your most recent 80% bake. There aren’t outward signs of over fermentation there, look at the sharp proud ears on that loaf. If it was over fermented I doubt you’d have such proud ears. Which leads me to think that the dough had a bit more water than it liked and thus spread.
Benny
One of the ways to get a more open crumb is having room for the dough to flow or spread. That is the reason why the slices on the end of the loaf have a more open crumb if they have room in the ends of basket to flow or on a stone in the oven rather than in a confined space like a Dutch oven. The room to flow elongates the air bubbles and makes them larger. I am not sure what the total flour is in your recipe but maybe try making smaller loaves that will proof more evenly and allow for more oven spring.
It totally makes sense...My loaves are pretty big, 500 g of flour per loaf, which makes it even more difficult to get some decent oven spring and open crumb, I am painfully aware of that..The issue is that we do love big slices of bread in our family...:-)
I need to make a heart-rending choice: big slices or oven spring/open crumb....
They would just have more airspace and be less dense. You may have to shape them in a different way than what you have been doing. From the photos it looks like some of them are rolled fairly tight and that may have constricted the expansion towards a more open crumb.
Don
What quantity of flour would you recommend?
900 grams for two loaves with no inclusions. That much dough will fill my bannetons to the top or domed above when fully proofed and they barely fit in a one gallon plastic bag after baking.
I reduce that to 800 if I am adding nuts and seeds or whatever. I like big slices as well and have a long slot toaster to accommodate them.
Some but not all of the IG crumb photos create a false or forced perspective by using smaller loaves to make the crumb appear more open. The real truth is that it is not easy to achieve an open crumb masterpiece or to do it on a regular basis without a lot of practice.
Ok, I'll give 900g a try for my next batch then..thanks a lot, Don, you advice is very helpful!
So here they are, 900g of flour for 2 loaves at 78% hydration
Pre-shape 8h into bulk / bench rest 10 mn and shape / Proof 2h40 at 27C / Fridge overnight
Total fermentation time = 11h (= 40 mn more compared to previous bake)
My intention was not to add 40mn more proofing time compared to the last bake but only 20mn, unfortunately life got in the way, so I suspect a bit of over fermentation here...So I'm pretty sure the next bake will be the One!
I agree these are a bit over fermented. It shows more in the crumb of the one on the right than the one on the left. The next one will be perfect. Life often gets in the way of our baking LOL.
Benny
The volume appears similar to the larger amount of flour version but the density looks similar or slightly improved. It also looks like a different shaping method was used. Was there any difference in texture or flavor?
Increasing hydration may still help a little but it may require doing something else different. You could try doing one less fold or increasing the amount of levain or the number of feeds before making the levain. If a more open crumb is the goal then you could try a shorter mixing time or do it by hand once to see if it makes a difference.
When you transfer the dough from the bulk container to the bench it should be done gently to help preserve the integrity of gas bubbles and that is followed by the proper amount of tension without over tightening of the pre shape.
Very interesting point, as I always struggle to take the dough out of the container: I always have to scrape off the bottom with a plastic dough scraper as it tends to stick to its dear life to the bottom of the glass-bowl. Not sure what to do about this one....
Even if I try to be as gentle as possible, the dough always end up being like teared apart during that phase, when half of the dough falls down onto the counter top while its other half stays glued to the bowl, both halves still connected by long strings of dough...I tried to spray a bit of oil on the bottom of my bowl, but it did not change anything
Instead of inverting the bowl try to go around the bowl with a wet plastic bowl scraper then tip it up on its side letting it pour out while using the scraper to help. I do this with on a wet surface with no flour then pre shape on a dry part of the counter. Sort of like this
https://youtu.be/RtQBFmrM_mA
The other parts of the series are worth watching as well because she is a real pro
Yep, that's exactly what I should do indeed!! It makes so much sense!
Thank you again so much for your advice and help :-)
Indeed, the texture was much better: I don't know how to describe it, but it was perfect to me, very pillowy, soft and springy...Like a cloud! A bit more flavour as well.
As for the shaping, I tried to be less assertive, not to tighten the dough as much as usual, so a bit looser, if it makes sense