October 26, 2022 - 11:12am
Hearty Seeded Rye from The Rye Baker
I recently purchased the book, The Rye Baker, by Stanley Ginsberg. I have tried a few recipes, and for the most part, they have worked well. I was thinking about making the Hearty Seeded rye in the book when I noticed something a little odd. In the instructions for mixing, the author says to mix the dough for 30 to 35 minutes. I think this is rather unusual, and perhaps a mistake. I am wondering if anyone else has made this particular recipe and if so, I’d like to know more about it.
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But i've also just learned that rye fares better with a very good mixing even though it's gluten structure is very different to wheat. I used to under mix but now I intend on mixing more. But agreed... 30-35 minutes does seem a long time. Have you looked up on-line to see if there are any errata's?
When he wants you to break down the coarse rye meal a bit. It’s similar with the Westphalian pumpernickel. I haven’t made the seeded rye but I did make the Westphalian pumpernickel. I’m not sure my coarse rye meal broke down much even with all the mixing, but it didn’t hurt.
Did that recipe work? That, too, looked very strange as it doesn’t have any leavening at all. I am beginning to question how much testing was done for the book.
It is supposed to be that way. I liked it, but it’s definitely dense and chewy.
The book is fairly reliable, I think. Some of the members here did testing for it. I have had more trouble with the recipes on the Rye Baker website, although there are a lot of good ones.
I have noticed that different rye flours (even if labeled the same way) can look and behave quite differently. I sometimes have to change the hydration, and my breads don’t always turn out looking exactly like Ginsberg’s. But it’s rare that I get a result that I don’t want to eat or wouldn’t want to share with others.
Yes, it is rare or maybe never (I don’t remember.) that I bake a bread that isn’t worth it. Some of my whole grain breads have been bricks but still quite nice to eat.
I am still waiting for the Ginger-Plum bread to rise more and it has been 1.5 hours. It is a bit unusual since usually when instant yeast is in the mix, the rise works easily. I will wait and see!
I mix my rye till it forms a dough, let it sit for a bit and mix again for about a minute before putting it in the fridge. I've learned that if I knead it too much, it turns from dough to paste. I keep reading about people who knead rye for long periods of time, I have no idea how they get away with it.
There's a recipe on Dietmar Kappl's blog that has extensive mixing for a dough that's mainly Roggenschrot mittel (medium rye meal), so I guess the time could be correct.
https://www.homebaking.at/schwarzer-muckel/
I tried Dietmar's recipe with hand mixing at ≈1-kg scale and just couldn't handle it. I might try it again now that I have a Bosch Compact mixer.
A rye meal sounds like a coarse grind, could that be why it survives a long knead?
In Lutz Geißler's recipes for bread based fully on roggenschrot/rye meal (this is indeed a very coarse grind), he also calls for long, slow mixing. At least as I understand it, the idea is to coax as much "binding" as possible out of the rye meal, to avoid that the final bread will be too brittle/crumbly.
For example, in below recipe for pumpernickel he recommends a 20 min knead and testing the consistency by shaping a ping-pong-ball sphere of dough between wet palms, then squeezing it to see whether it breaks/cracks or just deforms. If it deforms elastically but doesn't break, it's ready to go.
https://www.mdr.de/ratgeber/rezepte/rezept-pumpernickel-schrotbrot-roggen-glas-sauerteig-lutz-geissler-100.html
There used to be a video as well demonstrating the bake but unfortunately can't seem to find it online anymore...
When I tried this myself I only saw a pretty subtle transition in texture to be honest ... at a certain point I got sick of hand kneading and just moved on! It turned out fine in the end - though I haven't baked this style of bread often enough to have a feel for how big an effect the kneading step has on the end texture.
Cheers,
Mike
I guess I had no idea that it would be appropriate to knead any bread for that long. You explanation makes me feel a lot better about The Rye Baker book. I thought that it might have been a mistake. Thanks for your input.
As I responded to a post above, I am beginning to question how much testing went into this book. I am currently trying out his recipe for Ginger-Plum Bread (p.341), and it already seems to have some problems. The stiff rye sponge that is part of the recipe did not double or show any bubbling. Since the hydration of this sponge was 80%, I could see why it might not rise easily. After 15 hours at at least 72°F, it had risen maybe by a third, but I decided to proceed anyway because the bread is also leavened by instant yeast. I had previously fed the starter the previous two days and it seemed viable.
Right now, I have mixed as directed and the dough is very sluggish. It hasn’t doubled. I would estimate that it has only risen a little more than 20% after 70 minutes and I upped the temperature in the proofer to 78°, hoping that would help. If anyone has tried this recipe, I would greatly appreciate input. In the meantime I will wait some more time to see what will happen.
I find that happens sometimes (different rye bread) when the dough gets a little too acidic for the yeast. Raising the temperature helps a bit, but if that is the issue, you just get less rise, still tasty, just a bit more dense.
Thanks for your input. That might be right. I will give up waiting for a full rise soon and put them in pans. I do wish I had made only half of the recipe to try it out first!
for this specific bread. In going back through my notes, there wasn’t anything that I reported as a problem.
The sponge has only a 2% inoculation of starter. Combine that with the comparatively low fermentation temperatures given for the recipe and I would expect that the estimated 15-hour fermentation might not be adequate unless the starter is very vigorous. I second the suggestion to ferment the sponge and the dough at a higher temperature, perhaps 75F or warmer.
I recommended that both the ginger and prune quantities be increased, as that would suit my tastes better.
It's a good bread, as I recall; fairly dense and moist.
Paul
I have made several recipes in The Rye Baker (but not the Ginger-Plum one) and they have generally been OK. There have been a few typos that are frustrating, and I would nut use cumin in any recipe that calls for it; use caraway instead (see here).
Ginsberg doesn't usually specify dough temperature but he lives in San Diego, so it it probably warmer in his kitchen. The increase in temperature may help in the rise. Hamelman indicates 26–29 °C (78–85 °F) for bulk fermentation of rye dough; for a 60% rye, 27 °C (80 °F) is recommended. However, I have not always adhered to these recommendations because I don't have a big enough proofer.
I might have to try this bread soon. I had thought it was a sweet dough but I like dried plums, so I may give it a go.
Alcophile- I will give you an update tomorrow, but what happened is that my loaves ended up not fully risen. They were supposed to rise to the top of the pans, but after quite a long time, they were still about an inch or so lower. So I baked them anyway and I got a couple of wonderfully smelling bricks. I will wait for tomorrow to cut into them to see how they taste and will report back.
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as evidenced by the cracking on the tops. Maybe not as much as expected, but not a fail by any means. I hope you enjoy them.
Most of the recipes in the book work pretty well. Alcophile's note to use caraway where a recipe mentions cumin is spot on. Norm apparently got tripped up in translating “comino”. As with any other cookbook, read the entire recipe before starting to make sure that the ingredients and process are consistent with each other. While I would really like for Norm to publish an errata sheet, as was done for Inside the Jewish Bakery, the errors in this book aren’t as numerous or as egregious as I have seen in other books.
Paul
Thank you both, pmcool and alcophile for your suggestions about temperature and time. If I try this again, I will definitely use your suggestions. I am looking forward to tasting my “bricks” tomorrow in any case. I am pleased to learn that others here on Fresh Loaf have baked his breads. His approach on rye breads seems very different than Hamelman’s, so assuming the formulas work, it will be a good learning experience.
So, I just cut into this bread and…it was delicious! - dense, but really flavorful. I would make it again and maybe add a bit more rye culture at the beginning and up the temperature for the risings. It was nice with some sharp cheddar for lunch.. As Paul had suggested , it would probably be even better with more ginger and prunes.
I'm glad the bread tastes delicious, even if it is dense. I really will have to try this recipe.
I have rarely made a bread that was inedible, but that Schwarzer Muckel that I mentioned in the earlier post on this thread was one of them.
I will use more of the add-ins as suggested.
Let me know your experience with it. I hope it comes out well.
Was all ready to mix up the hearty seeded rye and the ginger plum bread. Unfortunately I forgot that I had two similar looking soakers and mixed the cracked rye soaker (which contains lots of salt) into the ginger plum dough. Will try again tomorrow.
Really enjoying both of the loaves (ginger-plum and hearty seeded rye). Based on others’ suggestions I tripled the ginger (which was not excessive at all) and did 50% more prunes. I did find the ginger-plum dough rather dry so added some extra water.
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Your loaves look great. I am glad you were inspired to make the ginger-plum loaf because I am really enjoying that formula, Now I am inspired to make the hearty seeded rye soon. I have to wait a bit because currently I have a lot of bread in my freezer!
This is now a family favorite. I have made it 3 times. One loaf from the most recent batch will be transported all the way from Nashville to India for Christmas. Rye fans, definitely give this one a go!
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I think something is wrong with the formula in the book. I always use a lot more water.
Your loaves look fantastic. It looks like you managed to get a lot more rise than I did- maybe because you used more water. How much additional water did you add?
Not sure exactly, since I keep forgetting to measure. But I remember adding an extra 100g at the beginning and that wasn’t enough. I just tried to add enough to make a dough that was reasonably moist but that I would still be able to shape into a log and put into a loaf pan. I don’t think it’s my flour, since I don’t usually have this problem with Ginsberg’s recipes. If anything, the dough usually turns out a little wet relative to his photos.
Thank you! I will take this under consideration the next time I bake this bread.
This looks great Caryn. Plum and ginger are such a great combination so I bet it is a tasty one.
Benny
Yes, it is, but the ginger is barely perceptible. Next time I would increase the ginger by a lot.
...replacing some of the water with ginger tea? And I think to bring out the ginger it needs some sweetness. I suppose the plums might help but not all plums are sweet. You can try adding some honey.
I like that idea. I have even thought about maybe adding some candied ginger, but then it might make the bread a bit too sweet.