HELP!
Hello all,
I'm hoping to gain some collective wisdom here. I've been trying off and on for years to try and get a sourdough starter going. This has been my method thus far. I use a combination of uncle Bob's organic dark rye flour and king Arthur unbleached all purpose flour. I have a scale and weigh the dry ingredients and water out. I've been doing 50g each flour to 100g of water, and after the first couple feedings where the water is 115g I leave 50g of starter after discarding the rest. I then keep the starter in the oven with the light on producing an average temp of 91°F in the starter. I go on like this for 2-3 weeks with no change. I feed the starter 1-2 times a day religiously and will also heat the water to between 80-90°F
I'm at my wits end though because after the first day or two it won't rise at all. There are little bubble pockets in the starter but it will not rise even a tiny bit after the first couple days. I've tried nearly everything I can find on the internet and I think it might be the water but I've also tried so many different types with the same result. Distilled, purified, filtered, boiled. If anyone has any advice or links to relevant posts I would appreciate it. It shouldn't be this complicated but I would really like to be able to succeed.
Hi!
91F, feeding once or twice a day, is destroying your wheat flour gluten. Especially in combination with distilled water which does not allow gluten to form to begin with. That is why it is like a glue with tiny bubbles and will not rise.
You can use your current set up and feeding shedule for a purely rye starter and it will be ready to bake with (or to switch to APF flour and room temp) in 3-4 days, especially if you initially add to it a spoon of whole wheat flour as a source of wild yeast.
For a wheat starter or a blend of rye+wheat you need 80F or lower temperature to preserve the gluten and see the starter rising.
If you have never ever had a sourdough starter before, it is easier to make with a slice or two of store bought bread soaked in a bit of water at 91F for 24 hours. Drain that sour soaking water and use it as liquid for your first mix of water with rye flour or rye with a spoon of whole wheat.
Thank you, this is a great! So what temperature should I be keeping things at? I do have some king Arthur whole wheat flour handy, so should I just not use the all purpose at all? Also what kind of water should I use? Is boiled or filtered tap water going to work?
I use only distilled water but I re-mineralize it. For a rye starter you can use distilled water as is, but for a wheat starter you need water that has some hardness to it. Bottled water, filtered dechlorinated, tap water, etc.
First day, blend 50g rye+50g whole wheat + 100g water. If your tap water is not very good, use bottled water, even distilled water is ok at this point. Keep it at 91F for 24 hours.
Then decide which starter you want to end up with: pure rye or pure wheat.
Day 1 should always be with at least some whole grain flour in it, better if it's a blend of two whole grain flours - whole rye and whole wheat.
For a pure rye starter, keep feeding the first mix with pure rye flour 20g g starter+100 g rye flour+100g water (any water), keep at 91F, feed daily, once a day. It should be ready in 4-5 days max.
For a wheat starter, feed it with all-purpose flour starting on day two, keep it at room temperature (70-80F). Feed it twice a day, 70g starter, 70g KAF all-purpose flour, 70 g water (not distilled, tap water is ok). Feed, wait for 16 hours, then feed again, wait for 8 hours, then again, 16hrs, 8 hrs. It should be ready to bake with in 4-5 days, max 6-7 days.
Godspeed!
Thanks again, one last bit of clarification. I think I will try the wheat starter just because I can more easily control the temperature in the ranges you mentioned. My question is for the wheat starter you say to use all purpose flour. Should I use all purpose or whole wheat since day 1 will be a mix of rye and wheat?
After day one, it does not matter which flour you are using in your wheat starter, whole wheat or all-purpose, for as long as it is KAF, i.e strong flour, guaranteed good for bread.
However, the feeding schedule above (1:1:1, 2x daily at 70-80F) is for the white all-purpose flour only.
With whole wheat you would have to feed a bit differently, because it accumulates acidity faster.
Both starters are good and universal, capable of leavening any bread dough, any flour or mix of flours, it is more of a matter of personal preference and cost/availability of flour, which one to have.
I am more used to white flour starters, both white rye and white wheat, because they are stable and my husband loves white sourdough bread. But many people prefer whole grain starters, especially if they are exclusively into whole grain baking, into hearty black breads. They smell absolutely divine.
You have a long future ahead of you, so you are free to try them all and see for yourself. Try one, try another, try the third one: white and whole wheat starters, dark rye starter. Practice makes perfect. You will become a pro in no time.
So I'm 5 days in, and I've been following your recommendations very carefully. I've been using bottled water but what I'm seeing is a minimal amount of bigger bubbles on the surface but no rising or bubbles through the starter. Should I be adding in a little bit of any of the other types of flour? Maybe even just give it more time?
Thank you for the feedback! I am glad that you are creating a starter from scratch. You will succeed.
Could you be more specific about what you' ve been doing for the last 4-5 days?
Which flours, exactly, specfic amounts and proportions,
Did you add sugar or honey?
Feeding schedule,
temperature around the clock and
the smell and taste of the starter right now. Do not eat it, just taste to determine its acidity, spit and rinse your mouth. If you have a way to measure acidity numerically, pH or TTA, that would be best. pH test is the easiest with this little paper strip, just tear off a 1 inch long strip, dip a small piece in your starter and watch its color change. Compare its color to the colors on the dispencer.
https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Essential-Lab-3110M18EA-Dispenser/dp/B00LY1KIWY/ref=sr_1_20?crid=33WN812R04HYI&keywords=ph+paper+roll&qid=1661783819&spre...
What is the air humidity in your area right now?
Mine usually rises initially, but stops rising altogether around third or fourth day and then begins to rise again, higher and higher every day. Until it reliably quadruples after each feeding.
This is how its surface looks when ready. This one is from San-Francisco Baking institute, high air humidity, so it is liquid, not very bubbly.
This is how it usually looks, day by day. Occasionally, it can take up to 2 weeks, but very rarely.
Mine does not rise much on day one, maybe 50%, but becomes acidic
Rises a lot on day 2, triples in volume and becomes stinky
Then it slows down, rises maybe 30%, and then, after it is fed again, it stops rising altogether.
After four days, it suddenly doubles and then recedes.
Fifth day of feeding it twice a day 70s+70bread flour+70water, @16hrs& 8hrs intervals, it triples in volume, smells sourdough, acidic, pretty much ready to bake with.
My flour in Toronto is very dry, low air humidity, exceptionally dry air, so it's bubbly like that due to its thicker consistency. If your flour is moist, it will look differently, more liquid and foamy, unable to rise that high.
Refrigerated starter
My apologies it's not letting me upload a picture, but the color of mine is very similar to your final product but I just have a few small bubbles on top. Day 1 I used liquid that had come from water being soaked in a couple bread slices like you recommended along with 50g uncle Bob's organic dark rye flour and 50g kind Arthur whole wheat. Day 2 it had doubled in size. Day 2 onward I have switched to entirely king Arthur unbleached all purpose flour 70g starter, 70g bottled water, 70g flour. Fed at 10:30am and 6:30pm 16 and 8 hours apart. Humidity has been around 52% with temp at 73°F consistently. The taste is not very acidic it tastes like flour so I may need to get some of those strips. I've got a couple of smaller bubbles on the surface of the starter but no rise.
IMG_20220829_163605479~2.jpg
Thank you for the details and the picture!
So, no acidity to taste and no sour or stinky smell, huh? That is a really bad sign, because there were plenty of wild lactic bacteria initially, as the initial rise shows.
If you can get those pH strips, it would help immensely to understand your starter.
Meanwhile, if you can, keep feeding as described, maybe adding a tsp of whole wheat flour with each feed and using very warm water for feeding, about 110-115F water. You are using all-purpose flour which is too white, you need higher ash%, at the level of bread flour so adding a good pinch of whole rye or whole wheat will correct it.
The starter will be warm initially, when freshly mixed, then it will come down to room temperature. This will stimulate its microbes to produce acids. It must be acidic enough before it begins to rise. It won't rise until its pH reaches 4-4.5.
This is amazing advice, Mariana, that I have never seen anywhere else. Thanks so much for these thoughtful and thought-provoking methods.
Rob
You are welcome Rob!