July 18, 2022 - 5:49am
diagnosis: overproofed without looking overproofed?
So, last night I baked this Lutz Geißler recipe --https://www-ploetzblog-de.translate.goog/2013/01/05/weizenmischbrot-mit-dinkel/ (which was lightly adapted from txfarmer's formula on this site -- https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30494/rye-spelt-sourdough-rye-flakes, itself apparently inspired by something from Hamelman's Bread).
My changes:
- I didn't have rye flakes, so I did a soaker of coarse ground 100% rye flour.
- I only had white whole wheat, which I mixed 50/50 with bread flour to approximate high extraction flour.
- I used whole rye and whole spelt flour.
- The obscene heat in NYC, plus my schedule, conspired for me to let the dough do its entire rise across a day and a half in the fridge, during which it almost doubled in size. I shaped it after that, did a very quick 20-min proof at room temp (maybe 27c) and then baked in a dutch oven, 20 minutes covered at 250C and 25 minutes uncovered at 230C.
I got a much tighter crumb than Geissler's or txfarmer's photos show & my loaf seems much darker. It's also quite sour, almost as if it's a high percentage rye, but it's only about 1/3 rye. Also, the crust is not crusty.
So: overproofed? overhydrated? underbaked?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Rob
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That looks great to me. But if you want some nit-picking... ;-)
The crust and crumb appear just a tad under-hydrated.
He used 1150 rye (1.15% ash) and 1050 spelt (1.05% ash), whereas you used whole rye and whole spelt (about 1.6% ash.)
Also, EU flours seem to require less water than equivalent North American flours. Hence, there are two reasons you would have likely needed to use more water than he did.
In my observations, LAB seems to slow down less than yeast in the fridge. Cold ferment/proof makes my WW loaves sour even when little rise is noticeable. So there's a possible source of sourness.
My guess is that the bulk ferment went a bit too long, and the proof too short. Extending the proof without shortening the bulk ferment may not have helped much.
But given your schedule, maybe this could work: Reduce the % of levain used, so that the fridge bulk ferment at the same length of time may work, and then extend final proof a bit.
Increasing hydration a tad, and a longer/cooler bake may help with the crust.
Bon appétit, amigo.
Gracias, mon copain.
What a great assessment. I hadn't considered under-hydration -- but, from your description, it sounds exactly right. And yeah: cutting the amount of levain and baking longer at a slightly lower temp would probably also contribute to making this more what I was looking for.
Rob
I tried again yesterday, with these changes:
1. I pushed the hydration to 80%
2. I reduced the %age of levain by 1/3
3. I bulk fermented cold for 12 hours.
3. I proofed an hour and a quarter at room temp (it was relatively hot in my kitchen, maybe 82F/27C)
4. I preheated my dutch oven to 250C, then dropped the temp to 220 for 30 minutes covered and 240 for 20 minutes uncovered
Verdict:
the taste is fantastic, but it's probably overhydrated, underfermented, and underbaked.
Rob
miche crust.jpeg
miche crumb.jpeg
One change at a time and take good notes.
Raising the hydration with rye often involves longer and lower temp baking. 240°C might have browned the crust too soon throwing you off in estimating if it was done. When done, it should pass a thump test.
Thanks for the sage advice.
Unfortunately, I'm bad at 'one change at a time.'
I modified several things:
The taste is marvelous and the texture is getting where I want it to be. I'm learning. Thanks again for all your help.
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Rob
The darkened bottom crust, compared to the top crust, also hints that the temp was too high.
I'm not sure how Lutz intends "Bei 250°C fallend auf 220°C 50 Minuten mit Dampf backen."
Duckduckgo says that means: "Bake with steam at 250°C for 50 minutes, falling to 220°C."
I don't know German, but in the original "with steam" comes after lowering the temp to 220.
Could it also be parsed as "pre-heat to 250, then lower to 220 (ie, when you load the bread), bake 50 minutes, with steam.
Mini O. ?
Great catch. In a reply to a comment on Lutz's site that I noticed after I baked, one of his people suggested that, if you're baking in cast iron, you should preheat to 250 and bake at the lower temp, but for a slightly shorter time.
Do you mean the oven temp? There should be a coma after the temps. With about 50 min of baking.
I would load the oven and let the oven come back up to temp, then turn it down for the rest of the bake. That gives the falling temp....and yes with steam. One cup of water in the oven would do it . It should all be gone after 20 minutes or cover up the loaf from the beginning to trap in steam.
"Bei 250°C fallend auf 220°C 50 Minuten mit Dampf backen."
Dave is giving good guidance.
Your comments on Benny's recent bake match what one of the TFL gurus told me:
"... I'm skipping many of the stretch and folds at the start of the process -- and I guess my laziness has prevented the dough from developing all those miraculous characteristics that make bread so great."
I PM'd one of the gurus inviting them to join this thread, and they pm'd back saying both your crust and crumb show signs of lack of gluten development, and they pointed out that txfarmer mixed at speed 2 for 3-4 minutes until gluten started to develope, and then still did 4 sets of stretch and folds. And that 3-4 minutes in the mixer would be 15-20 minutes by hand.
Thanks. To me, you are one of the gurus.
I've been posting my screw-ups bc that's how I learn. And I'm glad to know the reticent TFL oracles have confirmed what I came to admit on my own.
Rob
... my cold-bulk experiment underdeveloped the dough. Here's my latest, adapted to improve dough structure:
--25 minutes kneading by hand
--bulk: an hour & 1/2 on the counter (2 sets of stretch & folds) followed by 10 hours in the fridge
--preshape & 15 minutes rest on the counter
--proof: shape + 30 minutes on the counter
--bake: 25 min covered at 450F/232C, 25 min uncovered at 425F/220C
result: delicious, with better crust & crumb.
thanks all.
Rob
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