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Total lack of rise with PR's WW Raisin bread with buttermilk

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Total lack of rise with PR's WW Raisin bread with buttermilk

I tried Peter Reinhart's Whole Wheat Raisin bread from "Whole Grain Breads". One of the options in the recipe is using buttermilk; we had some, so I used it. The soaker and biga smelled great and the dough came together nicely but it isn't rising at all.

I hate wasting these ingredients. I guess I could try raisin crackers...

I'm guessing the acid in the buttermilk made the climate inhospitable for the active dry yeast. 

Any other ideas about what might have gone wrong?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I've had failure-to-rise situations when using commercial (Kroger) buttermilk that has the various "gums" in it as thickeners:  carageenan, tapioca, locust bean, etc.

That's why I got into culturing my own as I mentioned in a recent post.

Few other ideas:

1. In the biga, make sure the yeast is well dispersed in the flour before adding wet ingredients, so that it doesn't clump.

2. In  the final dough, make sure the yeast is well dispersed in the flour prior to wetting, so that it doesn't clump.

3. In the final dough, work in that 1/2 tsp ground cinnamon last, so that it doesn't touch the yeast all at once and inhibit it.

--

Check the ingredient list of your buttermilk. If there are one or more gums in there (carageenan is gum, tapioca starch is gummy), I'd venture that is the culprit.

Bon appétit, amigo.

Edited to add: IMO, if the dough, after everything is mixed, and rested a bit, is too clay-like, or more like a "thick paste" than "dough-like", then the gum in the buttermilk is the likely culprit.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

The ingredients on this buttermilk are milk, stabilizer, live and active culture.

Maybe "stabilizer" is a gum?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

According to these web pages, it can be.

https://www.dairyfoods.com/articles/83740-dairy-stabilizers-what-the-experts-say

https://gumstabilizer.com/applications/dairy/

https://www.foodbusinessnews.net/articles/10654-stabilizer-options-for-dairy-formulations

I think Mariana has the more correct answer.  Gum/stabilizer in the buttermilk may have exacerbated the "interference" with the hydration/dissolving of the ADY,  but IDY does not need such a "dissolving" of any coating.

ADY is "coated". IDY is not.  And I think that is the main issue.  (That lady is a genius.)

Rock's picture
Rock

Enzymes in dairy can certainly have affect yeast. I'm not familiar with  his recipe. But if it has cinnamon in it, that is another factor to consider. Cinnamon along with nutmeg and mace will usually have a negative effect on yeast.

Dave

 

mariana's picture
mariana

This recipe is for instant yeast, Gary. It won't work as written with ADY.

So, the culprits are the wrong choice of yeast, inadequate amount of chosen yeast and inadequate handling of chosen yeast.

Yippee's picture
Yippee



Yippee

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

I scaled up the yeast as suggested in the book and also it behaves just like instant in my usual recipe... I didn't notice any difference when my wife brought home ADY instead of the usual IDY. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

@Gary: Mariana saw the obvious, while I missed it.  She's a GENIUS.

The gooey/thick  liquids in the recipe -- milk, honey/sugar, butter, eggs -- won't properly activate ADY that is merely dispersed in the flour. 

It would have taken water, substituted for part of the milk, to properly activate (penetrate and dissolve the coating on) the ADY granules, and revive the yeast cells therein, prior to mixing the yeast water into the rest.

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

This is a good day indeed. Practically the perfect learning experience.

  1. Do something wrong out of ignorance.
  2. Ask for help.
  3. Don't give up.
  4. Learn the answer.
  5. Everything turns out OK.
  6. Eat good bread and get smarter. 

She is indeed a genius!

Thanks

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Several hours later, it actually started rising so I dumped it in my cloche and baked. It looks like it will be a decent loaf after all. It will have some ugly scars from lack of shaping but looks mostly OK. 

GaryBishop's picture
GaryBishop

Very good flavor and nice soft crumb. I'll be making this again with more attention to activating the yeast.

Thanks for the help.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I have used the SACO brand buttermilk powder in several of the soakers in WGB, but not this one. I have not had any issue with rising with IDY and the buttermilk soaker FWIW.

I also have access to Dean's Buttermilk without any stabilizers (I'm just south of the Cheddar Curtain and Dairyland, FYI), but I can't recall using it in these recipes.

Glad to hear that it might be OK.