The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Pan loaf - valley down center - Rheinisches Schwarzbrot

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Pan loaf - valley down center - Rheinisches Schwarzbrot

Hi guys, 

I think this might have been covered before, if so, sorry for the repeat but hoping to get it diagnosed for a quick turnaround as I'm immediately making another large 13" pan loaf) or my wife to take up to her folks tomorrow.

The pan was covered with foil and in addition, not sure why except I was smelling too much roasting aroma on a 4-hour bake so I also drenched my large hotel pan full of lava rocks to the top with water.  In other words, I know the oven was a moist environment.

Any obvious reason for such a collapse?  I'm sorry, I'm almost certain I might even have asked this but I can't find it and as I said, baking for a quick turnaround.  Thanks.

Oven starts at 200C falling to 160C x 4 hours.  I gave it about 10 minutes then dropped the oven to 160 C for the remainder of the bake.  

 

 Edit:  I will say I took the proof well past the time from the recipe (Geissler's Almbackbuch, and his blog), because I was seeing doming but no appreciable cracks.  Recipe calls for 2 hours, I took it first to 2:20, then an additional 15 so 2:40 proof all day.  Just a few, shallow cracks, only one of which was maybe 1/8 or so across at its widest.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Usually this is a sign of overproofing, which would be consistent with your longer proof than stated in the recipe... Post the crumb when you slice it, will be easier to be sure about the reason.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

OK, thanks Ilya.  I just missed the signs, then.  As i intimated, at 2:00 it was getting nicely domed, but I saw no cracks at all.  This recipe is a slight tweak from his blog, a very slight elevation in hydration.  Cannot imagine that's in play.  Could you help me better understand a proper proof for this style bread? Shouldn't we be looking for some cracks here, too? (I should add, this has no added yeast - so I presumed the latitude of play was also broader).

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Overhydration can also cause this by the way! So maybe it's a combinations of the two.

Do you have a link to the recipe? With pan rye loaves usually finding any pinholes is the sign to get them in the oven asap.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

OK, thanks, Ilya.  It's this recipe, with only a very small tweak in hydration - nothing imo on the Kochstück, just a total of 5 grams evenly off the water and schrot (book v..blog:  93.75g v. 95g whole rye corns, 187.5g . 190 g water), and 25 grams less on the Hauptteig schrot - 225 v. 250 on the blog.

Pinholes, I want to pull a Seinfeld because now the light does go off and I was looking for cracks when I'm certain I was well past the point.  Not the rustic "flipped" round!

Thanks.  Trying again.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Mh did you see pinholes and kept going?

Did you actually use only schrot and whole kernels in the dough? I am wondering whether the dough would show pinholes when everything is so coarse in it...

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thank you Ilya because in truth, no I didn't see pinholes but I'm wondering if I may have just been blind to watching for them because I was so off-track looking for the cracks.  And the only sub I did is in the Malzstück - it calls for mittel and I want to use up some pumpernickel that's been languishing - more fine than middle, I'd say.  Not enough that I have to worry too much about absorption differences, I think.  I mill my own in 3 "grades," though with the coarseness being infinitely variable it's always by eyes and feel in my hands.  

But right, no flour.  Just the schrot.  I really appreciate your keenness, something I would never have thought of.  I wonder.  Would you think just looking at the "dome" and trying to parse it that way might be better - something like a stiff v. liquid starter?