Maurizio's 30% Spelt
I do apologise in advance: I keep having the same issues with my baking and keep asking the same questions on this forum, but apparently, there is something that I completely miss in my understanding of the mysteries of sourdough because in spite of a very active starter, my loaves are desperately flat, in spite of having most of the times a very beautiful ear... Every single time I pray for that very elusive oven spring, but in vain...I tried everything: I switched to a stiff starter a few weeks ago, I tried to lengthen the bulk, to shorten the bulk, to bulk at a warm temp in a proofing box, at room temp...But still the same old on-the-flat-side kind of bread...Rather good taste-wise, mind you, but still...
So I know there's a huge room for improvement regarding my shaping skills, that might be part of problem....Maybe also not enough strength built during the bulk? Shaping not tight enough???? Fermentation issues??
I also realise that the bead flour I use is a sifted Wheat flour, so rather on the whole side kind of flour..but still, is there a way to get a tiny more plump loaf???
I tried Maurizio's 30% spelt recipe this time, but instead of 84% hydration, I used only 77% water as I know my sifted flour doesn't stand too much hydration...
Here is the process I followed, using 1kg of flour:
30% whole spelt
70% Sifted wheat flour
77% hydration
10% active stiff starter 1:2:60% hydration, fed twice the day before + once in the morning, ready to use 4-5h later at 25C
2.2% salt
Autolyse 30mn with levain
Mix salt
Bulk 4h20 at 25C with 2 sets of S&F the first hour + 2 sets of coil folds the second hour
Divide and rest 20mn on countertop
Shape into batards and rest 30mn at RT
Fridge overnight
Baked in DO at 230C for 25mn with lid + 25 mn with no lid at 220C
Please please help me understand!!! :-)
Those are very tall loafs with beautiful ears, they look perfect to me so I am not sure what needs to improve. Perhaps add some instant yeast next time? :):):)
Thanks for you reply Ming, that's really appreciated!!! I know that they are big loaves, so maybe it would unrealistic to expect them to bloom like crazy, but don't you think that they could be a little bit more plump and less flat, especially on the ends parts? I should try to shape them in boules next time to see if it would make a difference...
I am trying to make my baguettes better myself but with my limited experience I find that a younger dough would usually produce a rounder loaf assuming the leavening agent and the gluten are not the problem. That is how I judge my baguettes based on how round they are and I suppose this logic would apply to other loaf shapes as well.
By younger dough, do you mean that I should shorten the bulk?
Yes, that is what I would do to make my baguettes rounder. Keep in mind that having an active SD starter visually does not necessary mean it would perform accordingly with a real dough. Try to look up to Full Proof Baking to see if you can find some insight there, as Kristen Dennis is an expert with this type of bread. I will find some links of her baking when I am at home.
That would be very helpful, thank you so much Ming!
It looks like you have had some good help since this morning. Since I mentioned Kristen Dennis, I will provide the links of her YouTube channel and her Instagram account below for you, it may or may not help you at all but her wholegrain sourdough tutorial on YouTube is a gold standard for me with so many insights in this video, I think anyone who bakes wholegrain should watch it. Since she is a sourdough expert/instructor I wouldn't hesitate to send her a private message if I have questions about sourdough baking. Good luck!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BvoEWDNRfs&t=1213s
Here is one of her bakes with spelt: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKZHporpZFL/
Thanks A LOT!!!
Gaelle, I think you did quite well for 30% whole spelt. As you know spelt's gluten is weak and very extensible so it can be challenging to bake with and not get a loaf that spreads. There are things you can do to try to get more from your spelt. One thing to try is to sift the bran out of your whole grain flours. Then you could scald this with twice the weight of the bran with boiling water. This can then hydrate and cool. Adding this later after you've developed the gluten in your dough can help you with betting a better structure from your dough. You will also find that you're better able to get more water into your dough without it being too loose. The water for the dough can be reduced by the amount that you used for the scald, but you'll probably find that you'll add a bit to get the dough feeling good and not too dry. I haven't found that the hydration from the bran scald adds any water back to the dough to loosen it much when it is added.
Anyhow, that has worked for me to attach good results with whole spelt. Good luck.
Benny
Really interesting method Benny, I will definitely give it a try...In the meantime, I re-tried this recipe shaping the loaves in boules, just to see if a different shaping would make a difference, and here is the result, fresh out from the oven: less spreading, but not as plump as they potentially could be...There is still room for a bit more oomph, in my a-bit-too-perfectionist opinion...
Now I'm really looking forward to giving your method a try! The week is going to be long until I can bake again on Sat...:-)
These looks amazing Gaelle, so well done. Great oven spring and bloom! I hope you give the sifting and scald a try, it really helped me with my 100% whole grain bakes in the past few months.
Benny
Thank you Benny! I will let you know how the sifting and scald experiment goes :-)
I just prepared the scald but am not sure exactly when I'm supposed to add it to the dough..Can you help?? Thanks a lot Benny
Gaelle, no problem, add it after you have mixed the dough and at least moderately developed the gluten. That way the bran will not greatly interfere with gluten development.
Benny
Thanks!!I've already kneaded the dough and it's resting for 30mn before the 1st set of S&F; I'll add it at that point then...Should I do a lamination for that??
That is a great way to add it. I’ll often add it after moderate gluten development and then do more French folds to get the bran well incorporated evenly. If you add it during lamination you shoul also get relatively good distribution of the bran. So many ways to do things😎
Thank you so much for your help ''live'' Benny, that is so great!!! :-)
Glad to help when I can. I look forward to the results of this bake.
Benny
So here they are...Just to give you the context of those very weird looking loaves, I left them a bit too long in the proofing box that was set at 27C, so 2 more degrees compared to the last batch... The dough was a nightmare to shape, very sticky and runny...Over-proofed?? Too hydrated?? Both??? I had never had such a beautiful tunnel before :-// And how come the 2 loaves ended up being so different when the only difference was the shaping maybe, and the size of the DO (a bit bigger for the more deformed loaf)???
Dough at the end of the bulk:
Just about to taste them, curious to see if the scald is going to make a difference in texture ...
Did you subtract the water used in the bran scald from the water from the dough? I wonder if it was a bit overhydrated? The large tunnel looks like a pocket of trapped air that occurred during shaping or with folds. The fermentation looks fine hard to get a good ear like that if it was very over fermented.
OMG!! I totally forgot to take the extra water of the scald into account!!! Same for the new ''sifting ans scald'' batch that is bulking as I speak (or write??) !!!! Not sure if I should burst into laughter or cry right now....Any advice on how I should handle this upcoming disaster when it's time to handle/shape that wet blob??? Oh I'm so bummed out....
How far into bulk are you? Is it near the beginning where you could add more flour? If it is very far along you could bake it in a pan if it feels very very loose. If it doesn’t feel too batter like you could just go for it!
Edited to add: considering you increased the hydration quite a bit through the scald then those loaves are even more impressive!
Benny
It's too late to add any flour, I'm 3h30 into the bulk...No worries, I love the challenge!!! Now that I know that my dough was not over-fermented, I am going to handle the new batch more confidently, just like a simple very wet dough...I'll post my results tomorrow!!! forgot to mention that the taste and the texture of the crumb were absolutely amazing :-) Thank you Benny for introducing me to this method!!
Last question: do you think that the fermentation is right here??
I’d say that the fermentation looks quite goo to me honestly Gaelle. You should be able to say even better by the texture and taste though. But by crumb and overall shape of the loaves, I think they are good!
Benny
Perfect!! Just to see if it would make a difference in terms of oven spring, I shortened the bulk by half an hour...I just finished the shaping phase, which was not as bad as it was yesterday, then rest for 20mn, then fridge overnight...Pictures and verdict tomorrow early afternoon!!! :-)...
Fingers crossed for you 🤞
Not too shabby given the extra challenge of the stratospheric hydration!!!!
I think I might be able to sleep soundly, at last, tonight :-)
The fermentation looks more on point and the extra hydration may be more compatible with the flour you are using. I think you could add even more water just to find where the limits are. MTCW
Don
More water??!!? Oh well...At this point, why not! :-))))..I had never went that high in hydration before, so why not continue to experiment (even if I haven't completely recovered from the yesterday's complete circus that shaping the ''blobby'' beast was!!)...What increment do you suggest: 1%? more??
On a side note, that accidental high hydration experiment is very interesting because when I did the flour test, both of the flours I used did not stand more than 75% hydration...Which is going to lead to my other question: how come it is sometimes encouraged to go higher in hydration (in order to get a more open crumb for ex), when the flour used does not stand more than a much lower hydration in the flour test??? (I hope my question makes sense)
One thing I have found by scalding the bran is that you can actually get really high total hydration without the dough feeling too hydrated. I sort of have felt that the extra hydration of the scald doesn’t add to the hydration of the dough.
That's going to be my next experiment: one batch with scald, and the other without scalding first, both with the same hydration...
Out of curiosity, I re-did the same recipe, one batch with scald, and the other without, using the same total hydration for both loaves
Here are the results: I really did not notice any difference during the whole process nor in the final results...Both dough consistency were the same during the whole bulk, both were very runny during the shaping, both seem to have a similar crumb and both loaves look petty the same in terms of oven spring and ear in my non-expert eye...
Sifting and scald / 89% hydration:
Direct method / all the water introduced upfront / no sifting and scold / 89% hydration:
I would agree with you Gaelle, they both look very similar and I wouldn't be able to tell any difference either.
One thought I have is how well developed your gluten was prior to adding the scald into that loaf. I always try to ensure that the gluten is moderately to well developed prior to adding the gluten. As you know the bran can interfere with gluten development, so the idea of the scald is that you can develop the gluten well and then add the bran without interfering with gluten.
Here is how I proceeded: I mixed and kneaded both dough the same way, using Rubeau method for a few minutes only, then let them rest 30mn, then did one set of S&F for the no-scald dough and laminated the scald-version in order to incorporate the scald, immediately followed by a few sets of slaps and folds / S&F to make sure the scald was properly mixed into the dough. When I incorporated the scald, the gluten was already really nice with a beautiful window pane, so the lamination was very easy and I could have stretch the dough out even so much more than what I already did!!
I have no experience with a flour test beyond just making bread. Water added all at once is different than water added incrementally (bassinage) as the gluten develops. I do an initial mix and "fermentolyze" and then add water by feel while mixing to a desirable extensibility before the salt is added which tightens it up and then finishing the kneading.
If you do want to add more water make sure you give it more time in the oven. A bold bake works better to dry it out and it helps with the flavor.
Water added all at once is different than water added incrementally (bassinage) as the gluten develops.
That is really interesting!! I had no idea...That must why it is possible to go high in hydration even with flours that don't stand really well such a level of hydration in the flour test then...Thank so much for enlightening me :-)
My next experimental batch tomorrow promises to be fascinating!
They look nice and I would say you're getting about all that you can get out of these loaves. The spelt is notorious for spreading and the wheat flour that you sifted might lack some of the enzymes and dough conditioners that market bread flour would have in them.
Don
Thanks for your 2 cents on the matter, Don. Interesting point on the sifted flour
Here is the website's info about the one I use:
''Organic Sifted Wheat #50 Bread Flour La Milanaise:
This Organic Sifted wheat bread flour is made with organic wheat. The flour is sifted in order to remove the bran, which makes it lighter. This product is greatly prized in bakeries. It will absorb a little bit more water than all-purpose flour. Equivalent: T110''So do you think this flour lacks enzymes compared to other regular wheat flours??
I do use a French T65 that is similar to American All purpose and it contains wheat malt to stimulate the yeast. Most American flours have other additives for gluten strengthening, browning, and whatever else they decide it needs like vitamins.
I would say again that your expectations should be closer to where you are now. I bake a lot with spelt that I mill at home but usually only 20% and the other 80% is bread flour with a lower ash content than yours. I try to keep the tension in the dough with coil folds like you do and that seems to help.
This is one of my better efforts
Don
Oh this crumb is absolutely stunning!!! Thank you for showing me that this is possible! I'm officially on a Quest! :-)
Occasionally it all comes together and exceeds my expectations. I used a mix of KA bread and AP flour 40% of each and 20% whole spelt. The hydration was around 80%+ because I like working with wet dough. My recipe and timing is otherwise similar to yours. Good luck in your quest
2nd attempt following the exact same process with 3 differences:
I shaped the dough into boules instead of batards, baked it in a terra-cotta pot (vs DO) and did a 5h bulk at 25C instead of 4h20...
The crumb is much denser than the last batch....What happened????
To my eye it would appear under fermented which I also wondered about your first loaf. Was there any difference in the starter and levain prior to your using it?
Benny
I don't think so...but I'm not an expert, so it's hard to say :-////
I converted my 100% levain into a stiff one 2 weeks ago, in the hope that it would help with the oven spring...It seems to be very active and ready in 5 hours-ish at 25C, even if it's harder to say with a stiff levain (and given the pain that it is to refresh, I might go back to my good old 100% levain very soon as the stiff one doesn't really make a difference in terms of taste or bloom)
I don't use an aliquot jar anymore as the results were too unreliable, but maybe I should go back to it just to add another tool at my toolbox to determine when the bulk is done...This quest of the perfect fermentation point will never end!!
Make sure you use your levain at peak everytime, it really makes the whole process more predictable and comparable. So watch for your levain's dome to just start to flatten.
In regards to the aliquot jar, it is important to make sure that your levain is well integrated into the dough evenly. So a good amount of kneading/mixing/slap and folds etc should be done prior to extracting the aliquot jar sample otherwise the sample won't be a reliable reflection of what is happening in the main dough.
I am perplexed by people in this forum mentioning crazy numbers of slap and folds (700 in one of your recipe!!!), whereas I usually can only do very few of them as my dough tends to get very tense and strong very quickly and doesn't allow me to continue the slaps and folds or the stretch and fold for that matter without starting to tear...
Maybe it's a question of dough hydration? But I usually do a flour test before hydrating my dough whenever I use a new flour and usually respect that threshold ...Should I go higher in hydration than what the flour test says???
And do you thing a stiff or liquid levain does make a difference in terms of determining when it's at peak?
Thank you so much for your help Benny!!!
If your flour stress test is accurate then I would follow it. But if your dough is very very stiff after only a few folds after mixing the flour test may not have been accurate and you might need more water.
A 100% hydration levain is easier to read peak in my experience because it doesn't hold the dome as long, with a stiff levain by nature it will seem to hold peak for longer before it starts to fall.
Benny
Thank you for your insight Benny, lots of things to percolate and take into consideration for my next experiment!!! :-)
with strong gluten and the stiff starter did give you a taller profile in the finished loaf. I gave up on stiff starters for the reasons you stated and have been using a rye starter like Benny and Gavin are using. If you want a more open crumb I would suggest that you mix in some lower protein flour or increase the amount of water which will also make it ferment faster. I use a liquid levain anytime after it has doubled and usually before it has peaked. I also do a two stage build at 1-1-1 ratio that matures in three or four hours for each build.
I too am perplexed by the crazy number of slap and folds that people use. Most of my doughs are too wet for slap and folds except for pizza dough and even then it comes together quickly after an autolyse.
Indeed my flours seem to be high in gluten, but even if I know I should start with easier to manage types of flours like AP for ex, I would really like to keep my bread as healthy-ish as possible, meaning using mostly whole-ish types of flours, which makes my life way more complicated...But I am tenacious and it will take as many trials and errors as necessary, but thanks to this community someday I will finally understand my starter / my dough and the fermentation times...hopefully...
I think I will document my whole process with pictures of the different stages next time, in the hope that someone in this forum will be able to pinpoint the flaws in my process!
Thanks for your 2 cents MTloaf, that's really appreciated!