Recipe Adjustment
I just cannot seem to figure it out.
But enough about my intelligence.
But now that I mentioned not being able to figure things out, I could use some help with a bread recipe adjustment that I also cannot seem to figure out.
Before I submit my current recipe, let me describe the baking environment, and why I tried to change things.
I have a batch of sourdough starter that I have been feeding for 10+ years, using a ratio of 1 starter to 1/2 water and 1/2 flour. Back when I lived more comfortably, the recipe I had made the perfect loaf, made in a Dutch oven.
We had to down size our life when we lost our income. We now live in a dilapidated RV, with a wood burning stove for heat (it's hard to keep a constant temp in our home, especially in the dead of winter). Our tiny RV oven is too small for a Dutch oven, so we have to bake in a bread pan. As there are only the too of us, baking two loaves is just wasting one (though the chickens and deer don't complain about our not being able to eat the extra loaf before mold sets in).
I tried to adjust my tried and true bread recipe to just one loaf. And while it seemed to work somewhat o.k. during the summer, it just plain sucks in the winter. Too dense. No flavor. And fails once every four or so tries (hard to explain that last).
Unfortunately I can't seem to find the original recipe (I did mention my lack of mental abilities at least once before). So here is the current recipe, from starter to finish (with 'helper' notes for my Wife):
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Sourdough Bread
Starter:
1/2 cup of Starter floated in 1/2 cup Water in the same measuring cup at the same time (makes it easier to measure the starter; water levels, and the starter sinks). Add 120g of All Purpose Flour, and mix. Refrigerate until needed.
Ingredients:
(Activating Starter)
· 1/2 cup Water
· 1 cup Starter
· 120g Flour
Add water to measuring cup first; it will float on the added starter, making measuring more accurate.
(Dough)
· 1/2 cup Warm Water
· 1/6 cup Oil
· 1/3 cup Active Sourdough Starter
Add water first, then oil to the 2/3 cup mark, then starter to the 1 cup mark.
· 260g Flour
After letting it set for 1-1/2 to 2 hours...
· 1 tsp Salt + ½ tsp. of water
Instructions:
- Activate starter at least 6 hours beforehand.
- To make the dough: Together in a mixing bowl, weigh out the starter, water, oil and bread flour. Mix everything together until all of the flour is just absorbed (should look like a shaggy ball). Let the dough rest for 2 hours.
- Add the salt + ½ tsp. of water. Mix (knead) for 8 minutes.
- Stretch & fold: Gather a portion of the dough, stretch it upwards and then fold it over itself. Rotate the bowl ¼ turn and repeat this process until you have come full circle. Do every 30 minutes for 2 hours (4 times).
- Bulk fermentation: Cover your bowl with plastic wrap. Leave it in a warm spot to rise. Your dough is ready when it no longer looks dense, and has increased in volume about 1½ - 2 times its original size (~12 hours).
- To shape: Remove the dough from the bowl, and place onto an unfloured surface. Gather the dough, one side at a time, and fold it into the center. Flip the dough over and place it seam side down. Cup the sides of the dough, gently pulling the surface tight, and rotate it, using quarter turns in a circular motion. Repeat this process until you are happy with its appearance.
- Second rise: Coat the bottom and sides of bread pan with shortening, and dust pan with cornmeal. Place the dough inside for a second shorter rise, about 2 - 3 hours. It is ready when the dough is again 1½ - 2 times its original size.
- Preparing the oven: When ready to bake, preheat your oven to 450° F.
- Place your bread into the oven and reduce the temperature to 350° F. Bake for 35 minutes.
- Cooling: Remove the bread from the oven, let rest in pan for 10 minutes, then cool on a wire rack for at least a half hour before slicing. Don't cut too soon or else the inside will have a gummy texture!
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Well, there it is, and my overly long story.
Can anyone adjust this so that it again has body and taste, enough for a single loaf, in a bread pan, baked in a RV oven?
Please.
Thanks fer yer time.
~ John
In addition, I have tried many other internet recipes, but everything I find is portioned for two loves, and when scaled down come out dense.
You've found an amazing place. Everyone here is so nice and helpful. I'm sure you'll find an answer.
Usually the problem in winter is everything slows down which might be an answer. However one thing puzzles me... even though timings will be different you do wait till the the starter is nice and active and you are reading the dough and not the clock. So you should be already taking this into account.
Can I suggest one alteration for you to try out? Your starter activation is:
(Activating Starter)
· 1/2 cup Water
· 1 cup Starter
· 120g Flour
Can I suggest trying....
(Activating Starter)
· 3/4 cup Water
· 1/2 cup Starter
· 177g Flour
Allow to activate and double before refrigeration and use within 3 days.
Perhaps this healthier feed and allowing it to activate will give better results.
I'll give that a shot. Thank you, friend :)
My lifestyle now definitely does not allow me to watch clocks; I spend most of every day outside trying to keep our homestead going and us alive, everything now has to be done by feel (wish my Wife felt the same... at the least towards me :) But I am old, and things do seem to peter off then).
Too much info?
The main of the recipe though; you think that's not the problem?
Following this procedure. Which should fare better for winter. Has a healthier feed and allowed to activate before refrigeration. Use within 2-3 days. As for the main part of the recipe it's not clear.
If you're using all, or most, of this starter build, (which is a high percentage of the main dough) from a quick glance at your recipe it seems 12 hours for the bulk will be far too long.
What i'd be tempted to do is when you've added the salt, after the autolyse, and kneaded till full gluten formation you could try shaping it straight away and putting it into the bread pan. Bake when it crests the top.
Give that a try. Loaf pan breads are more forgiving and one can try a varied approach. See if that makes a better loaf.
Just to clarify, if not already clear, the refrigeration part of the recipe was for my non-baking Wife. That was for her to add the leftover activated starter to the rest of the saved batch starter.
The activated starter is to be used right off in the current dough.
I'm definitely going to try the suggested starter ratio in the next loaf.
And as for the second of your suggestion, I'm gonna give that a try as well :)
Cool thing about making bread, is that you learn, and any fails feed the critters.
So you do the starter build, use most of it, and return the leftover to the rest of the saved batch starter.
How much leftover starter do you have? What happens to it? Usually that leftover starter is starter for the next time. What is this "rest of the saved batch starter"?
If you're adding it to an ever growing "spent" starter batch and then using it to build starter for your dough it might be too fermented and weakening.
Always save the most recent leftover starter to build the next starter. Don't add it to an old starter batch and then dip into it to build another starter. The most recent build is the freshest and that should be used each time. If you have a lot of old starter to use up then use in other recipes but keep separate. This might be where you are going wrong.
Hope this makes sense.
Hot damn!
12 years of doing this, and I did not know this. That is something folks need to add to their instructions on how to start a starter.
This is very good to learn. Thank you. Always wondered why things got weak, which required a refresh.
This could be what's going wrong. You might wish to take some starter and give it some TLC, to bring it back to health, then try a starter build (the new way) and you can try your bread the original way if you like. Just to see if this was the problem. Up to you with this being your go to and tried recipe.
Dough)
· 1/2 cup Warm Water (118g)
· 1/6 cup Oil
· 1/3 cup Active Sourdough Starter (about 75g)
Add water first, then oil to the 2/3 cup mark, then starter to the 1 cup mark.
· 260g Flour
After letting it set for 1-1/2 to 2 hours...
· 1 tsp Salt + ½ tsp. of water
So you build 465 ish grams of starter and use 75g in the final dough. That's building a lot! of starter. And that leftover is added to old batches of starter then you dip into it to build another starter. Not good practice.
I think it'll be better to build less. But for now stick to the new build but keep behind 1/2 cup starter of the new build as starter for next time. Don't add it all to the discard. Each time you use that freshly built 1/2 cup starter you kept behind.
Now for 75g starter to 260g flour in the main dough it should not take 12 hours. Something isn't right and it could be the starter maintenance.
I think the new method should work well since the two hours autolyse will give it time to get going and when you make the final dough shaping it and going straight into final proof should be fine.
Hope this makes sense. Give it a try and let me know.
Best of luck.
You rock!
I'll be tryin' this tomorrow, and let you all know how it goes.
Again, thank you.
Best of luck. Hope it goes well.
So Abe, you said...
Are you also suggesting that I use this new starter ratio for my continued starter, always feeding the new batch of starter with the same measurements?
It'll need to be adjusted for less, or no, waste but since this is a method you've been doing for a while let's wait till you're getting some nice bakes in before finetuning.
So after each starter build you save 1/2 cup for the next build and so on. Every time you save a this 1/2 cup it's from this fresh build!
After a feed allow it to peak then use. Make sure it's very active before going onto the final loaf and storing that 1/2 cup in the fridge.
Saving yeast the correct way made a huge difference.
But I'm still not all that satisfied with my bread.
Still too dense. And while the two of us can't seem to finish two loaves before the second goes bad, I do wish that the modified recipe was a touch more pan filling. I use a 9x5 loaf pan, and the raised dough hardly fills it; we get a half-loaf.
Any chance someone could try my recipe and tweak it after seeing the results?
And you're making two loaves from it but it barely fills half the pan then put all the dough into one pan. A pan should be 60% full and have risen till it crests the top and then baked.
Where did you get this recipe from?
I'll admit I was slightly exaggerating, slightly, with calling the result a "half-loaf". But not by much. It's about a 3/4 loaf.
Also, as I mentioned before, we live in a RV, so our freezer is tiny, so I'd have no way of saving the extra.
And I'd still have two dense loaves.
Sure yer not bored enough to try making my bread? :)
I think we should adjust the recipe. How about this?
Starter Build:
Left to mature for 8-10 hours overnight. Use when very active and bubbly. Take off 100g to go into the dough and return the 20g back to the fridge as starter for next time.
Main Dough:
1: Mix the 500g flour, 300g water and 100g starter till the dough forms and there are no dry bits of flour left. Cover and rest for 30-60 minutes.
2: Sprinkle the salt over the dough plus a little extra water and knead till fully incorporated. while you're doing so add enough extra water till the dough feels tacky but not sticky. Knead till full gluten formation. About 8-10 minutes. Cover and leave till it's almost doubled. Should be puffy and aerated
3: Shape the dough into one prepared loaf pan. The pan should be about 60% full. Final proof till it crests the top.
4: Bake.
I tried to modify a perfectly good recipe from when we lived in a house. And in the time since, I lost that original recipe, and cannot recollect what changes I made to reduce the amount.
Sorry if I'm being a pain.
I'm thinking I can try to adjust it on my own, but without knowing what I'm doing, I'd be wasting a lot of ingredients. And with us now living in extreme poverty, that waste will surely hurt.
And buying bread from Wallymart won't work; my Wife is allergic to egg and dairy, something that every affordable store bought bread has.
Was replying to your previous comment while you were writing this. Please see above.
I understand perfectly and sorry to hear about these trying times for you. What i've done is given you a simple recipe for one loaf at a time for one standard 2lb loaf pan.
Take a look and let me know what you think.
See what you make of the starter maintenance too. At any one time you're just keeping back about 20g.
Watch Bake with Jack videos who has great advice. Here is his starter scrapings method. Which is exactly what you can do with the above recipe and starter build. All you need to do is keep the leftover starter in the fridge in a small jar. No waste.
https://youtu.be/Uj6YpNCUYYQ
Thank you.
Is there a liquid measurement difference, being converted from weight, between saved starter and active?
I'm trying to convert your liquid measurements from grams to cups.
The only scale I have is an old analog dial spring scale, which is a pain in the arse to zero with the weight of a container (does "tare" work in this sentence?) when measuring liquids. So I use the scale for dry ingredients only.
And it just now occurred to me that measuring by volume, when I add it to water for a more accurate read, does not work. Active starter takes more space than inactive due to the gas. What to do...?
Is the starter you save is just the scraps and doesn't have to be measured. Whatever is leftover is starter for next time. So for the first build try the following:
Take off 100g starter to use in the recipe and return what's left to the fridge.
When measuring starter in volume stir the starter down to get rid of the bubbles.
I was literally about to edit my latest post with that idea (stirring down the starter). This will work.
\o/
Just found this conversion chart: https://littlespoonfarm.com/baking-conversion-chart/
Just remember that volume is not a perfect measurement but as long as you are consistent and go by feel as well then it will be fine. There's always some going by feel but more so when measuring in volume.
So for the final dough, after everything has been added including the salt, you should be aiming for tacky but not sticky. Slightly sticky to the touch but not coming off in your hand. It should be kneadable.
I have no idea how to measure out 1/5 cup, using a common measuring cup. A touch more than a 1/4 cup would work? And with the added 1 tsp, would that be a touch and a dab more than a 1/4?
3 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon water.
Should equal close to 50g.
Hi John,
sorry it took me such a long time to respond. I baked your loaf, even twice, changing flour (all-purpose, bread flour), amount of starter (15g, 40g), kneading method (8 min by hand or 8 min in a mixer), but both times I got a small very sour loaf. There is just not enough yeast for that amount of flour and fat in the recipe. I gave it full proof before baking which took 6 hours at room temperature and it only quadrupled in volume, no more.
It is soft and sour, like true San-Francisco style bread, we actually liked it. But it is small. There is no way it would fill one 9x5 loaf pan. Your recipe makes one lb loaf. I baked it in a 8.5x4.5 loaf pan (6 cups volume):
The only thing that resembles a small countertop oven in my kitchen is my bread machine, so I baked it inside my bread machine, but it doesn't even reach 350F, it bakes at 325-340F starting from cold oven. Still it makes nice bread.
Your issue is likely to do with your starter not being active enough, besides not adding enough starter to your bread dough, to make bread taller and fluffier.
I have one bread recipe that I like, it comes from Sara Pitzer's book on sourdough baking. I usually bake it with milk, but for you I baked one loaf without milk, just water, and it turned out super delicious and soft, and just right for the 9x5 loaf pan. It is not sour and smells very nice, with a touch of honey in its aroma. You make overnight sponge for it, and then let it rise twice in a warm place, 2hrs each rise, then shape, 1 hr proof and bake.
See if you want to try it in your kitchen in your RV:
Sara Pitzer's White Sandwich Sourdough
for one large loaf in 9x5 loaf pan
SPONGE
125 g water
125g starter
90g all-purpose or bread flour
10-24 hours at room temperature until it ferments and bubbles.
DOUGH
340g flour
8 g salt
40g honey
15g oil or margarine
80-150g water (my flour is very dry and I knead in my bread machine, so I added 150g water)
Mix the dough, cover it and allow it to rest for 20 min before kneading. Knead until the dough is smooth and elastic and gluten well developed. Don't skimp on kneading time with this recipe. Cover the dough.
Once the dough has doubled, punch it down, cover again and allow it to rise a second time to double. Each of these risings may take as long as 2 hours.
When the dough has doubled a second time, knead it down and shape into loaf .The dough should fill greased pan by about half. Brush the loaf with melted butter, cover and place in a warm spot to rise until double in bulk, for about an hour (I didn't brush my loaf at all).
BREAD
Bake for 45 min at 375F/190С. I baked it in my bread machine for 1 hr 15 min, starting from cold oven.
For the most tender crust, brush the loaves with butter again and cover lightly with a dry cloth as they cool.
Source: Sara Pitzer (1980) Baking with Sourdough. A Storey Country Wisdom Bulletin.
Illustrations
My starter sits refrigerated covered with plenty of water. This water collects excess of acid and alcohol that starter releases as it sits dormant.
When I need it, I drain water and use the starter on the bottom. I feed it like you do 1:1, i.e. for example, to 100g starter I add 40g flour and 60g water. I keep it at room temperature for 12 hours and then it is ready to be used in baking or to be refrigerated again.
Sponge
The sponge for this bread is ready when it is bubbly. It might recede from the peak, but it still floats on water when you add it to the water for the bread dough.
When it is at peak volume, but looks bubbly like so - smooth surface with large bubbles, it is not ready yet. Stir it and let it rise again.
When ready, it will have a layer of small bubbles, fine foam, over larger bubbles and will recede somewhat. Then it it at its best.
When you pour off a portion, to use it in bread baking, the remainder looks very bubbly and smells amazing. You can refrigerate this portion, use it as a starter for the next bread:
BREAD DOUGH
Knead well and let it rise twice, doubling each time. From about 3-4 cups of dough to about 7-8 cups level.
Shape it on the table by flattening the ball of dough and roll it into a sausage.
This is how it looks inside 9x5 pan initially
And one hour later, when it is ready for the oven:
Baked loaf
It should rest for at least 15-20 minutes before slicing it and eating it warm with fixings. It has good keeping qualities, especially if you knead the dough well. This recipe makes 1.5 lbs of bread.
Best wishes,
m.