After relocation, starter/levains behavior changed. Why isn't my levain rising-to-double anymore?
I've maintained a german-style starter -- 100% pumpernickel-only fed, 100% hydration -- for years now.
It's been a fine performer for me for all my bakes.
I recently relocated -- US West -> East coast -- and 'everything' changed.
Using same recipes as always, I wasn't able to get a decent rise out of a loaf at all, over-dense crumbs, etc etc.
I started decomposing the 'parts' of the process.
I noted that my starter -- reconstitued from cracker across the relocation -- had stopped peaking in any reasonable time; taking 18+ hours to dome ...
Realizing that cultures were different 'here', and guessing that my starter may be starved of local/active critters, I started by re-selecting my starter cultures.
It's now re-trained for 4-hour peaks.
It's reliably fully-domed, and ~ doubled, at 4 - 4.5 hours at ~78 degs.
Moving on to building flour-conversion levains, with my usual builds 1:7:7, my levains _used_ to double in ~ 12 hours.
I'm staring at one now, after 18hours, ~30% rise at best.
It's still somewhat active, though not seeing bubbles rise "in real time" to be sure.
1st question -- what could possibly be retarding my levain growth?
Much of the US is known for chlorinated tap water. Or worse, chloramines.
If you are on "city water", and if the water utility has a web site, check to see if they mention amount of chlorine or chloramines. Though, I have no idea how much is acceptable for bread. It can also vary depending on the quality of their supply, such as a lake or reservoir and seasonal algae bloom, etc.
So if you're using tap water, try bottled _spring_ water instead. Not "filtered" water.
In my experience, water that you filter yourself or buy as filtered, is not as good as bottled spring water with the minerals when it comes to starters and bread.
I buy and use the cheap stuff from Big Lots, Crystal Geyser brand, $3 per case of 24 half-liter bottles. This feeds my starter/levain and goes into my bread.
--
Another possibility, just to cover the bases, is using a different flour to build your levain. What brand/type of flour did you use for levain-building previously? What brand/type of flour are you using for levain-building now?
Did you perhaps change from unbleached to bleached flour? Did you change from malted to unmalted flour?
--
Please report back and confirm if any of this helps/worked.
Good luck.
> If you are on "city water"
I was 'there', and am 'here'
> and if the water utility has a web site, check to see if they mention amount of chlorine or chloramines.
'there', https://sfwater.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=15360
avg chlorine, ~ 2.6 ppm
'here', https://www.broward.org/WaterServices/WaterQuality/Pages/WaterQualityReport2019.aspx
avg chlorine, ~ 3.8 ppm chlorine
> Though, I have no idea how much is acceptable for bread.
Some info
https://www.bakemag.com/articles/11985-the-importance-of-water-quality-in-baking
"Tests have shown that at a level of 10 PPM of chlorine in the water the yeast performance will be negatively affected in a dough system"
http://www.thescienceofbreadmaking.com/water.html
"If chlorine is added to your local water supply, it is important to know in what concentration (normal is about 4 ppm)
Also the mineral content of your water should be known to ensure the degree of hardness is around 25. Too soft water reduces cohesiveness , while too hard water reduces extensibility."
https://thebreadguide.com/which-water-should-i-use-when-baking-bread/
(general coments re: hardness)
> So if you're using tap water, try bottled _spring_ water instead. Not "filtered" water.
Good idea. Firing one up now.
> So if you're using tap water, try bottled _spring_ water instead. Not "filtered" water.
> In my experience, water that you filter yourself or buy as filtered, is not as good as bottled spring water with the minerals when it comes to starters and bread.
I am 'filtering' tap through a Pur filter.
> Please report back and confirm if any of this helps/worked.
Will do
> Good luck.
Thanks.
RB, since your starter is acting normal in this case, “ It's now re-trained for 4-hour peaks. It's reliably fully-domed, and ~ doubled, at 4 - 4.5 hours at ~78 degs.” It seems to me that you need to continue feeding this method to build the starter back up a little more. Then give the 1:7:7 a try after a week or so. When you do try the 1:7:7, make sure to take a piece off the original and make 2 starters for testing. This way if this go bad to still have your starter.
NOTE - while building back starter strength, you can park the starter overnight in the fridge and bring out in the morning. If you want to regain the 4-4.5 cycle warm the starter water to 90-100F.
Bottled Spring Water - Yes
Are you using the exact same rye as before?
BTW - you should be easily able to triple a rye starter in 4 hr @ 80-82F.
> It seems to me that you need to continue feeding this method to build the starter back up a little more. Then give the 1:7:7 a try after a week or so.
It's already week three of multiple, daily feedings. I've been beating my head against this for awhile already.
> When you do try the 1:7:7, make sure to take a piece off the original and make 2 starters for testing. This way if this go bad to still have your starter.
The levain builds are always separate from my starter.
> NOTE - while building back starter strength, you can park the starter overnight in the fridge and bring out in the morning. If you want to regain the 4-4.5 cycle warm the starter water to 90-100F.
yup; already part of the process
> Bottled Spring Water - Yes
as above, switching to that now
> Are you using the exact same rye as before?
yep. KA Organic Pumpernickel. Same I've been using for years.
> BTW - you should be easily able to triple a rye starter in 4 hr @ 80-82F.
Hm. NEVER had it build that fast ...
Trying 'better' water, 1st ....
You’ve got me stumped! Looking forward to hearing about the bottled spring water. Make sure you don’t get distilled water, it is missing the minerals.
www.broward.org ...
Whoop - there it is. AFAIK, FL tap water is too soft in most locations. And perhaps it is overly treated. I was not a fan of Florida tap water when I visited.
I bet it also explains what happened when you tried to reconstitute your dried starter.
Heh, your 1st version comment was accurate ;-)
City tap water here is colored, and heavily 'flavored'. I don't drink it.
Even filtered through a fridge-filter, it's not my fave. From the Pur filter it _tasted_ fine -- but I've done no _testing_ of it on my own (probably should invest in a pH-meter at some point ...). I'd naively assumed that it'd be fine. The more I read/think about it though, "it's the water" sounds like it makes sense as a source of trouble.
I'm rebuilding my starter itself -- 'flushing' it on 4-hr cycles with spring water. I'll give that a couple of days, paying attention to rises, and see how I do.
I'll report back with any progress ... or not.
Thanks!
AFter a couple of days of spring-water feeding of my starter, I'm getting really healthy 4-hr rises -- nice texture & dome, good smell/taste, etc.
but I am seeing doubling -- *NOT* tripling.
Since mentioned above that it _should_ easily triple in 4 hours, I'm still wondering -- what's wrong now?
IS tripling a reasonable expectation? Is "just doubling" an indicator of not-quite-healthy?
I'd _like_ to understand the starter -- behavior & expectations -- better b4 heading on to next-step levain builds.
Bakers report various rise increase for their starter. The following are some considerations for increasing rise height. But, keep in mind the microbes and the products produced are what really matters.
I recommend trying THIS RYE FLOUR. It has made a difference for others.
You may fnd something of interest HERE.
Thanks for the 'data points'; interesting stuff. Will do my reading/homework ...
> Bakers report various rise increase for their starter
Fair enuf. Likely 3-parts science, 2-parts experience, 1-part folklore & bragging-rights! ;-)
> keep in mind the microbes
Noted. And, of course I have little control over the local env. Short of shaking a cat over my starter jar.
> and the products produced are what really matters.
In my current case, for my starter
> Feed ratios, especially hydration
100% hydration
> Type of feed
discard to 10 gram seed
1:1:1 feed
+4 hrs, 1:1:1
+4 hrs, 1:1:1
+4 hrs, 1:1:1
> Quality of water (minerals are good)
working on that one
> Temperature
controlled, 82 degs
> Humid environment (covered to seal in moisture)
closed jar, no silicone seal
> I recommend trying THIS RYE FLOUR. It has made a difference for others.
I've used
https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/organic-pumpernickel-flour-3-lb
exclusively with my starter.
Would be interesting to know/see any difference.
I think I'll give it one more spring-water cycle, then try a levain build experiment -- with spring water, and regardless of if 'only' a 2X starter rise.
My vote is for Bob’s Red Mill Whole Rye. And there is a reason behind it.
KA dark rye, although organic is milled via a roller mill and it is extracted. They do put back some of the extraction, but not all. I talked with KA about this.
Bob’s Rye flour is organic and 100% extraction. I also talked with a rep from Bob’s Red Mill concerning this.
IMO, organic rye that has nothing extracted from it is a super rich source of microbes and minerals (ash). Your original starter in its original location may have been strong due to the microbial population and somehow waned during the relocation. Just a guess. If that is the case the suggested rye may give it the lift it needs. If you are not adverse to buying the flour, it is worth a try.
HERE is what great home milled rye can do.
Mariana is a source of great knowledge. It would be nice to see 2 starters made from your original
‘
Wasn't aware of that, good to know. Thanks Dan.
Glad to see some improvement at least.
My guess is that your local water caused some change to your culture, and it hasn't fully recovered.
Three options:
1) it will likely eventually recover, just takes time. Maybe the bad water killed off or at least reduced in number some of the "high performing" strains of bugs in your culture.
2) Try a three-way mix of white flour, whole wheat, and rye for two feeds. Mariana recently linked to a study that showed that whole wheat is a good _source_ for wild yeasts, and white flour is a good _source_ for LAB.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/486405#comment-486405
Rye may be a good _food_ for LAB and yeast, but when it comes to _sourcing_ your first generation of bugs, it may be that white and WW have some benefit over rye.
3) if you still have any dried culture left over from before the move, try reconstituting some with the mineral water. 1 tsp should be enough.
Good luck.
Ordered some Bob's. Thx for the info. Worth a try!
While waiting for delivery, I've started a levain build with White Bread Flour, with spring water, and the spring-water re-conditioned starter. We'll see if there's any improvement -- AND it should also exercise the "white flour is a good _source_ for LAB" in a 1st step. Others can/will follow.
And, yep ... still have some dried culture from the move (here, and at a relative's in the Northeast -- always have a backup!); will give that a go too, once I narrow down a few other params.
> I've started a levain build ...
This 1st, WBF levain test, at 1:5:5, 82degs, with spring H20, after 16 hours, shows some activity, but has only risen <20%
I'll give it some more time, but doubt the sudden onset of a 2X rise :-/
levain_exp1_top.jpg
levain_exp1_side.jpg
The BobsRedMill rye flour arrived.
I switched my starter to it, from the KA Pumpernickel -- still using spring water.
AFter a few days of feeding, definitely seeing a difference:
(1) just less than tripling in 6-hours
(2) smells quite different. hard to qualify -- not yeasty, almost a little fruity
(3) after 6 hours, the risen starter is noticeably less stiff; not runny, but quite soft
Last eve, ~ started a white bread flour levain @ 1:7:7
In 12 hours, it's not moved much at all --_maybe_ 10-15% growth ... and some bubbles, etc etc.
I'd hoped for -- if not expected -- to see a more aggressive rise, now that my starter seems healthier with the BobsRedMill.
So, not clear "what next"?
Give it _more_ time? Some other/additional conditioning?
Any further hints/thoughts?
Questions I'm looking into, digging around 1st here in forums:
Could the starter be rising, but lacking yeast or bacteria?
Could the KA White Bread flour be somehow/somewhat lacking, in the same vein as the KA vs Bob's Rye flour?
1:7:7 is a high feed ratio. The higher the seed to flour ratio, the more you are diluting the microbes.
1:7:7 is 14% starter (compared to the feed flour) which contains the microbes)
1:1:1 is 100% starter (compared to the feed flour) which contains the microbes)
The high ratio starter has much less microbes than the 1 to 1.
That’s not to say that high feed ratios are not good, jus a reminder that high ratios are diluting your starter’s microbe at initial feeding.
Also, has your temperature changed from the rye starter to the white one?
A last thought -
It may be possible that your starter will need a slow conversion to white flour. I haven’t had that problem, but others say they have. You could try increasing the white flour gradually and see how that works.
Your problems when switching to white flour in unusual. Try using a different bag of white flour and see if things change.
I read somewhere that KA stopped enriching their flour. I wonder if they stopped malting it too.
Look at your bag of KA, at the ingredient list under the "Nutrition Info" box. Does it include one of: malted barley flour, malted wheat flour, amylase ?
> That’s not to say that high feed ratios are not good, jus a reminder that high ratios are diluting your starter’s microbe at initial feeding.
Sure.
Question -- when building a conversion levain, _is_ there general wisdom/guidance as to what ratio to feed at?
I understand "it depends ...", but are you suggesting that 1:7:7 is perhaps atypically high?
> Also, has your temperature changed from the rye starter to the white one?
Nope. All experiments are at same controlled temp.
A last thought -
> It may be possible that your starter will need a slow conversion to white flour. I haven’t had that problem, but others say they have. You could try increasing the white flour gradually and see how that works.
My goal is _not_ to convert my rye-only starter. Rather to build a conversion levain to seed a different bake; e.g., a "white sourdough" boule ...
> Your problems when switching to white flour in unusual. Try using a different bag of white flour and see if things change.
I'm already on my 3rd ...
Now, that's not to see it's not from a same/similar *batch* from KA's warehouse.
With the advice above^^ to give Bob's a try & look for diffs -- which _are_ there & real, I'm now suspiscious of the flour.
That's simply for lack of a better explanation, as yet.
> Look at your bag of KA, at the ingredient list under the "Nutrition Info" box. Does it include one of: malted barley flour, malted wheat flour, amylase ?
Yep, the "Ingredients" list under the nutrion label lists:
"Certified 100% Organic Unbleached Hard Red WHeat Flout, Certified 100% Organic Malted Barley Flour"
No mention of amounts, nor of any explicit amylase %-age.
Were you using KA _organic_ white flour at the old place?
I'm wondering... if you used enriched flour previously, and non-enriched flour now, if that might make a difference. Do the yeasties miss their vitamins? :-)
> Were you using KA _organic_ white flour at the old place?
Yep.
NONE of my flours have changed brand/type. They've alway been always KA organic.
The one-and-only new/change is the starter feed the BobsRedMill rye, per above
launching a fresh levain build @1:2:2; see what happens ...
comparing two feeds:
(1) 1:2:2 ( Bob'sRedMill-rye-fed-starter:H20:Bob'sRedMill-rye ), 5 hours @ 80deg --> 2.8x rise
(2) 1:2:2 ( Bob'sRedMill-rye-fed-starter:H20:KA-White-Bread-Flour ), 5 hours @ 80deg --> 1.1x rise
so, I'm still befuddled ...
ran the following test of 1:2:2 levain builds:
30g Bob'sRedMill OrganicDarkRye-fed starter (6 hr peaks) + 60g bottled spring water + 60g of:
(1) Bob's RedMill Organic Dark Rye
(2) King Arthur Organic Pumpernickel
(3) King Arthur Organic White Bread Flour
(4) King Arthur Organic White All Purpose Flour
(5) King Arthur Organic Whole Wheat Flour
@ 4 hours, 80degs, rise:
(1) 3.1x, domed
(2) 2.2x, domed
(3) 1.2x, un-domed
(4) 1.3x, un-domed
(5) 2.7x, domed
@ 6 hours, 80degs, rise:
(1) 3.3x, domed
(2) 2.4x, un-domed
(3) 1.1x, un-domed
(4) 1.2x, un-domed
(5) 2.8x, domed
@ 10 hours, 80degs, rise:
(1) 3.2x, domed
(2) 2.3x, un-domed
(3) 1.0x, un-domed
(4) 1.1x, un-domed
(5) 2.6x, un-domed
I've ordered some AnsonMills landrace white flour; should be field-innoculated with lots of 'yeasties', and _definitely_ NOT irradiated (I can't manage to get a straight answer from KA about that ...)
We'll see what that does.
First experiments with white-flour levain build comparison
with
10g starter, fed with Bob'sRedMill OrganicDarkRye-fed starter
20g mountain spring water
and +
(1) new batch of King Arthur Organic White Bread Flour
(2) AnsonMils French Mediterranean landrace flour
temp-controlled @ 80deg F
%rise
(1) (2)
time/
1 hr: 0 60
2 hr: 0 150
4 hr: 5 325
6 hr: 15 300
8 hr: 10 300
12 hr: 0 300
I'd say that's a pretty dramatic difference!
Now, need to figure out at what point to use (2) for a bread bake.
Right at max dome, ~ 6hrs?
Or let it continue to ripen for '12-18 hours' or somesuch?
RB, to be clear. I am not advocating that you use the whole rye after your starter is established. The main purpose of the rye is to provide microbes to get your starter going strong. But, you are free to use the rye for refresh if you choose, but definitely not necessary.
” Now, need to figure out at what point to use (2) for a bread bake.”
4 hr @ 80F and a 3.25% rise.
BTW - your latest 2 flour comparison test produced very strange results.
> use the rye for refresh if you choose, but definitely not necessary.
Sure. It's just generally been a preference.
> 3.25% rise
To be clear, that was a +325% _rise_, not 3.25%. I.e. 4.25x original, in case (2).
And, yep -- I was leaning to "@ max dome". Tho I suspect it'd be fine for quite a longer while.
> your latest 2 flour comparison test produced very strange results.
Won't argue there. I'm stumped as to what's "wrong" with the KA -- and why the levain refuses to rise more than +10% here.
I've run 3 tests with different heirloom flours -- all have healthy levain rises, >~ +250%.
Not surprisingly, with that level of gas production, all of them 'pass' the float-test at any time from 2-12 hours.
At no time, in current tests, does the KA white bread flour levain; sinks like a stone each/every time.
I have used KA bread flour and also their all purpose for hundreds, if not thousands of feeds in the past without a problem.
This is something I noticed in the past when I would try to build a levain with only white flour. Because of the lack of bran in white flours the levain is less viscous compared with whole grain levains. Now when I build a white levain I mix the flour, water and starter seed very very vigorously and for much longer than I would with a whole grain. In doing so I build some gluten, with more gluten built up the get a better rise from the levain because it seems to be able to retain more of the gases that it produces. I wonder if you try very very vigorously mixing your levain built with the KA white flour if you might bet a better rise.
Also out of interest if you have a 0.01 g scale, you could also measure the weight loss of the levain/starter. This is some information that Doc Dough on TFL has shared before with us. At peak the levain will have lost 2% of its weight of the flour fed to it. So if your levain build had 10 g of flour added, you’d look for 0.2 g of weight loss at peak. If the levain built with the KA white flour lost 2% of the weight of the flour that it was fed at around the time that the other levains peaked, you’d have a good idea that the microbial population in that levain is great and will levain bread well even though it didn’t rise much. It could be that the levain’s consistency was such that it could not retain as much of the gas that was produced and thus didn’t rise to a great extent.
Benny
> try very very vigorously mixing your levain built with the KA white flour if you might bet a better rise
I normally mix well in any case. Doesn't seem to make a bit of difference here, at the moment.
> This is some information that Doc Dough on TFL has shared before with us.
Interesting ...
> if you have a 0.01 g scale
I don't -- just 0.5 g. Offhand, got a good recommendation?
> It could be that the levain’s consistency was ...
Could be. BUT, I'd been "doing this, this way" *with* KA flour for _ages_. Something _else_ has changed. And it sure seems to the flour ...
I just pulled my first bake out of the oven with the AnsonMills FrenchMed flour.
It's quite a different creature under the hand. Quite a lofty loaf -- definitely _not_ suffering the same issue as the KA-based bake.
I'll let it cool/hydrate, cut in -- and see what's inside! Will likely need to tweak my recipe a bit.
amfm.jpg
American Weigh Scales American Weigh AC Pro 200 Digital Pocket Scale, 200 by 0.01gm Is the scale I use for 0.01gm measurements.
If the amount of starter/levain you’re making goes past the upper limit for the scale, just remove a portion of it and weight that. You can calculate the amount of fresh flour that you’ve added to it and then do the weight measurements over the next several hours.
Looks pretty good to me.
The taste of the bake is great. More 'complex' on the palate; trending to a wholegrain richness a bit.
Tastes of a bit more sour than my KF-based levain bakes. Lots contributing to that. I like it -- may well keep it.
Crumb's a little tight for my taste -- I'll increase my BF a bit.
Crust is nice & chewy: I'd like a bit more crisp. May increase my malt.
But , for my $0.02, I'm back in business. Tho I still dunno what the deal with the KF is ...
For anyone following this folly, in summary, problems & fixes:
(1) After a x-country move, bad water & foreign microbes hobbled my starter. Switching to spring water, and retraining starter solved that problem.
(2) My starter feed flour, KA organic pumpernickel, was performing less well -- rises were slower/smaller.
Switching to a 100%extracted flour, Bob's RedMill organic rye solved that.
(3) My usual bake flour for my Sourdough boule, KA Organic White Bread Flour, has simply stopped performing. It will not rise in either levain-build, or bake. It *used* to. Absolutely no clue why it won't now/anymore. Acts like it's sterilized or sick. True across multiple flour batches.
Switch to an organic landrace flour, AnsonMills FrenchMed white flour, cures that problem.
Thanks to all for comments/insights. If/when this happens again, @ next relo or whenever, I'll at least have some tools to find/fix the problems!
amfm.2.jpg
I lost track somewhere along the line.
Is the starter that you are currently using enitrely descended from the starter that was clobbered by the filtered tap water, or is it a starter that was reconstituted from a dried backup using only bottled spring water?
Here's what I _think_ happened: The filtered tap water possibly killed off some critical component strain(s) of yeast and/or LAB. Not just temporarily deactivated them, but eliminated them, such that no amount of "healing" from spring water or better flour could bring them back. They're gone. You now have a combination of a "remnant" strain of the previous starter, plus whatever new strains have been added by new flours.
To test this theory, reconstitute one of your dried backups using spring water, snd see if it will perform with the flours that you used before. Don't "add" this to your current starter, but keep it separate.
Net, or in-other-words: Maybe you never fully healed or restored the "clobbered" starter -- something in it, some part of it, died off. So take a step back, and work with an old sample culture that has never been clobbered by the bad water.
Hi,
> I lost track somewhere along the line.
Heh. It's perfectly clear from all the postit notes stuck to my cabinets and my notebook entries! ;-)
> Is the starter that you are currently using enitrely descended from the starter that was clobbered by the filtered tap water, or is it a starter that was reconstituted from a dried backup using only bottled spring water?
I've tried both.
The reconsituted-from-cracker 'old' starter performed exactly the same as the 'healed' new starter: negligible rise with the KA flour.
What I'm currently using -- and was used in that^^ last bake -- is my 'healed' branch.
The starter batch itself is quite vigorous, and the levain builds, and the bread build, are both rising nicely. Under my hand, the bread build has a nice elasticity, and -- so far -- demonstrating pretty good extensibility.
I'm in mid-next bake atm, tweaking a bit to open that crumb up top & bottom (https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68318/optimizing-recipes-where-best-add-some-ferment-time-openup-topbottom-crumb) ...
Once I get this^ tweaked, I plan to reconstitue another cracker batch of old original, and do some performance/taste comparisons.