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Over-working rye bread??

ernieS's picture
ernieS

Over-working rye bread??

I have been baking both sour dough white flour bread and sour dough rye bread for several years with some mixed success. For my rye bread, which is roughly 50-50 rye/wheat flour, I have used the gentle fold-wait method of working the dough before final proofing. I never got much rise or a very exciting crumb from this method, although my starter/leaven is working fine.

Today I prepared two loaves, one 90% white flour and another 50-50 rye/white mixture. After watching a video that illustrated a dough preparation that involved a slap-fold technique, I applied it to both loaves. The results were drastically different. The white flour loaf responded as expected and came together nicely. The 50-50 loaf, however, seemed to actually disintegrate under the slap-fold method. It became stickier and stickier as I worked it, as if it were over-worked.

The white flour loaf seems more forgiving of the kneading/folding process and seems to respond well, and I have used both the slap-fold method and the more gentle periodic fold method on this recipe with good results. The slap-fold and more vigorous working of the rye flour dough does not appear to work at all for me.

So, I need some advice about working the rye bread dough. Is the presence of the high percentage of rye flour a signal to use a modest folding method, and that this dough can easily be over-worked? Is the gentle fold method (fold 4 corners - wait 30 min. - fold again for 2-3 hours) the best for dough with a high rye content?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

50/50 rye simply can't develop the strength to the extent even resembling pure wheat dough (unless you add some vital wheat gluten, I guess). There is no need to knead it too much, just folding is good, and considering how sticky it will be, just giving it time is all you really need. So I am not surprised trying to slap and fold the 50% rye dough would just disintegrate. You are not overworking it: it just can't handle such kneading methods.

Here is a recipe for 50/50 rye bread, have a look at the video: in the beginning he just sort of mixes the dough instead of kneading, and then gives it a long bulk ferment. https://breadtopia.com/sourdough-rye-bread/

In this sense I find the area between ~30% rye (when dough is not drastically different from wheat dough) to >60% rye rye a bit weird: the dough actually develops some strength, but not enough to employ the normal wheat techniques. In a way it's simpler with full-on mostly rye dough: no strength to worry about!

ernieS's picture
ernieS

Thanks for the reply! After my post, I realized I had posted almost the same issue 6 years ago. Senioritis. Yes, your points are well taken and I like your feeling about the rye-wheat mix being a conundrum. I keep wishing for a crumb in my rye bread that remotely resembles my wheat bread, and I need to give that up. Not gonna happen. Just not enough gluten there.

You substantiated my suspicion about the fear of over-working. It just fell apart, but I just did my one hour fold and it seems to have recovered and come back together a bit after resting. Lesson learned. I will now check out the link you sent. Thanks again. Baking is an adventure.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Two inexpensive Kindle format books on eye breads: 

Not on sale, but as a regular offering, $2.99 for the Kindle ebook edition of the Rye and Other Breads chapter of "Inside the Jewish Bakery" by Stanley Ginsberg and Norm Berg.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AJY67WW?tag=froglallabout-20

Be sure to get the errata sheet at:

https://www.stanleyginsbergbooks.com/ITJB/files/IJB_Errata.pdf

I use the Kindle "Notes" feature to add the corrections. Highlight the text to be corrected, then click the "note" icon (the one with the pen) and copy/paste in the corrected text from the PDF.

Table of contents (of this ebook, not the whole ITJB):

  • Acknowledgments
  • Introduction
  • VANISHED WORLDS
  • ABOUT THE RECIPES
  • Measurements
  • The Egg Conundrum
  • THE BUILDING BLOCKS
  • Flour Yeast Salt

Rye Bread 

  • Rye Sour
  • Black Bread
  • Rustic Pumpernickel (Sitnice)
  • Pumpernickel
  • Corn Rye (Kornbroyt)
  • Old-School Jewish Deli Rye
  • Mild Deli Rye
  • New York (Sweet) Rye
  • Caramel Color 

Other Bread

  • Polish Potato Bread (Poylner Kartoffelbroyt)
  • Barley Bread (Gershtnbroyt)
  • Vienna Bread (Vinnerbroyt)
  • Resources
idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

US $4.99 for the Kindle ebook edition of Secrets of a Jewish Baker, by George Greenstein.

https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Jewish-Baker-Recipes-Breads-ebook/dp/B00CGI3INK/?tag=froglallabout-20

125 recipes (not all are rye), 338 pages in the print edition.  Measurements are in cups.

Rated 4.7 out of 5, with 149 ratings.    

I have this, and I think it is well written.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

1. Bread, by Jeff Hamelman. 3 editions.

https://www.amazon.com/Jeffrey-Hamelman/e/B001IGOBYQ?sort=price-asc-rank&tag=froglallabout-20

The new 3rd edition will be out in a few weeks. I have the 1st edition in hardcover. It has 18 rye formulas with 15% up to 100% rye, including black bread, and black pumpernickel. Get the errata file , http://mellowbakers.com/ErrataSheetFeb2011.pdf

if you buy the first edition.

2. The Rye Baker, by Stan Ginsberg.

https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Ginsberg/e/B005VTN4RG?sort=price-asc-rank&tag=froglallabout-20

ernieS's picture
ernieS

Thanks. I have Hamelman's book, 2nd edition. Don't know if the errata file applies to the 2nd edition, but I will check. Thanks for the additional suggestions for recipes.

albacore's picture
albacore

Also check out the Mischbrot recipes at www.homebaking.at

It's a German language site, but this shouldn't be a problem with the high standard of modern in browser web page translation.

Lance

semolina_man's picture
semolina_man

1/3 rye and 2/3 white all purpose is a nice mix that develops gluten, tolerates slap-fold, has a uniform crumb when slap-folded, and has nice rye aroma, color and flavor.