High hydration newbie and tight crumb
I’m new here - wondering if anyone can offer some advice. I’ve started experimenting with high hydration sourdough (today’s loaf is 82%) and thought I would be rewarded with a beautiful open crumb - alas. It’s still fairly tight with a few larger holes.
Does anyone have any ideas on what I might be doing wrong or could do differently for a slightly more even and more open crumb?
My recipe is roughly as follows:
450g Shipton no.4
50g Rye
400g water @ around 35c
100 levain (25g white starter with 10% rye then fed with 50g rye and 50g water)
12g salt
- 30 min autolyse, levain added with rubaud mix method until incorporated, salt added and mixed again with rubaud.
5-6 coil folds - started about 20 mins after salt added then subsequent folds done again when dough has relaxed each time - tends to be around 20/30/45/1hr/1hr between folds.
bulk around 21C-23C for 5-6 hours until dough is billowy (never really sure how far to take this)
Shape into batard (usually no preshape as dough feels strong) and overnight retard at 3C then bake next AM.
Thanks in advance!
Handle roughly during ferment, gentle during proof and proof long enough (longer = get bigger holes). Enjoy!
Phaz,
Am I right or am I right?
With these kinds of breads, you kind of have to perfect a recipe. That is, you might need to bake a loaf 15 times, changing one thing at a time, before you get the result you are looking for.
I think I am right. In fact, I see DanAyo baking a ciabatta eight times so far!...
Now THAT'S what I call a hobby... or even a business! But, you have to approach it with that kind of mindset.
Which means... when you get advice from a baker of your caliber, and you are a goodly baker, your "advice" would be which variable YOU would tweak next, but it might not necessarily be THE silver bullet.
If I'm right, this is so cool.
Murph
What is perfect and while I'm here, what is perfection. Nothing but a relative term. I actually find a majority breads shown here are horrible. Really - poor proofing (and other things) would give the crumbs in most pics posted (dense here, way open there - atrocious). But it's not my crumb, so it's not up to me. I just try to - hmm - I'm not gonna get into that as it really doesn't have anything to do with this thread, or bread!
By the way - that crumb looks great. I think big holes are just a sign of a poor method. But you did have a question - and the advice given is what you would want to look at to achieve your perfection (emphasis on your). And ya know what - that's one of those basic fundamentals. Hey, a deep understanding of the universe starts with understanding the atom - fortunately bread isn't that complicated - regardless of what most think! Enjoy!
...dense here, way open there...
I've often wondered about that. Open holes look rustic but you can't eat a hole.
I would agree that a homogeneous structure gets closer to perfection. Pick the structure and make it the same throughout.
To me, this bread also needs some shaping help as I can see where the dough was rolled. I can pick out the roll pattern.
Which way to go... tighter or looser? Maybe, like you said, more proofing. That should open the dense part but wouldn't it also blow up the holes, too?
Like.. making a tunnel instead of a hole?
Sooo... it's experiment time. Change one thing at a time and judge the result?
Murph
Ah - the hole. I once posed a question - what is a hole? Then asked what that would have to do with taste, texture - anything. The logic of the hole is on the same level of you taste with your eyes - to which I say - shove a peace of anything in your eye and let me know what it tastes like.
Tighter/looser - yup - that's the trick I guess you can call it. If you want more even, more open, whatever - you gotta control their growth - in particular size, and more particular, when. When is easy enough, and handling determines size - all sizes. I'd call that bread making 101.5 - just a smidge more of an advanced topic in my bread school.
Always experiment - it's cheap fun, and ya might learn something - hopefully! Enjoy!
Hi, Emmalhair!
Lemme ask you a question: How do you like the flavor of that bread?
If you like it (the outside is to DIE for!), why not perfect it?
Here's a start... I came across The Sourdough Journey on YouTube because I'm new-ish. I'm starting a starter and he had "50 Ways to Kill a Starter" (you can't).
He has some other experiments like this series on bulk fermentation: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMNnFRtsaxxzj7-DC9P7g9bmdvEZst0lq
Sourdough is mind-blowing because of its flexibility. What works for me is almost assuredly not going to work for you. YOUR kitchen, hands, temperatures, flour... whatever... is going to be different.
Which means that YOU have to find out what works for YOU! Sourdough is flexible. Not predictable.
No "recipes" here.
If you like the bread overall but just want it better, I would go with phaz's idea about proofing. Phaz is a pretty good resource around here (I'm not). There are others. They may pipe up.
See if the bulk fermentation helps. No "recipes," remember? Just working with your OWN circumstances and time...
Then check out The Sourdough Journey's experiment with shaping. He's got a few of interest. Keep your mixture the same but try different techniques until you nail it.
Don't forget to write down what you did so that when you hit it, you can do it again!
Man, DON'T FORGET TO WRITE IT DOWN! Take some notes! You're making YOUR recipe!
Let me say that again in case you didn't get it the first time: Don't be stupid! Take some notes, dummy! :)
All my best!
Murph