Hey there! Need some guidance on some bread!
Hiya everyone!
I'm new to this website and to bread making! I've been reading posts on here to help, and figured I would join. :-)
I am trying to get my own sourdough starter, which is a trip on its own. I'll probably do a separate post on my questions for that.
I recently made an adaptation of https://www.sourdoughhome.com/chocolate-cranberry-sourdough-bread/. I used SD discard instead of the starter, a packet of instant yeast, and subbed out the Cocoa powder for more bread flour. I probably added even more flour than that, because the dough was wet and sticking everywhere while kneading.
Now, I don't have a mixer, do I was trying to hand knead. I did 5 min hand kneading, 5 min rest, and 5 min hand kneading. Then I tried to knead in the cranberries, but they were wet from being poached, and made the dough a mess. After getting them somewhat distributed, (I also mixed in chocolate chips) I let it rest for 1.5 hrs. Then I shaped the dough, let it rest for 45 min before cooking in a dutch oven at 425, 20 min with lid, 20 min without.
The bread turned out gorgeous on the outside, but I don't think the inside has a "good crumb". It was a little chewy and a little yeasty tasting. I need some suggestions on how to improve this please!
Nice meeting you all!
Welcome to The Fresh Loaf! You'll meet a lot of great people here.
I'd like to start out by saying that for a beginner, that is a very good loaf. Plenty of people prefer a tighter crumb. But there are just about a million factors that go into bread making so there's no easy answer to your question. Here are some possibilities:
1. Sourdough DISCARD is less active than a mature starter, at least depending on how old it is. A very active starter will open up the crumb.
2. You stated that you added more flour to your dough because it was sticky. This decreases the hydration in the final loaf, and if you added a significant amount of flour, it will have definitely closed up the crumb. As a general rule, the greater the hydration of the dough, the more open the crumb, but they are also difficult doughs to deal with so beginners are usually advised to work with lower hydrations.
3. The more extensively a dough is mixed, the tighter the crumb. Depending on how vigorously and for how long you worked the raisins into the dough, that might have tightened up the crumb.
4. The loaf on the website you showed has a pretty tight crumb as well (though to be honest, it also looks overproofed). You might just want to practice with a different recipe; it doesn't seem very beginner-friendly in the first place. It's always good to practice with a simple recipe until you feel confident with your skills and can move onto more complicated stuff.
As for taste, that's pretty much certainly due to the packet of yeast added. 1 packet of yeast for a single loaf is A LOT. Reduce/remove it or just use a non-sourdough recipe.
Thanks for the welcome! I also appreciate the compliment!
I had added the yeast to make up for the fact that my discard is not that active. I was honestly looking for ways to use my discard, but I'm not sure how to alter normal recipes to use it. ? I came across a few recipes that used a whole packet, but I'll experiment with different amounts.
I had always assumed open crumb was better, but it sounds like it's dependent on what a person likes. Would it have been better to knead the cranberries in after the dough proofed? And how does one deal with wetter than normal dough?
I appreciate your reply, thank you!
I think there are a few different ways to go about adding the cranberries. The way you were doing it is probably fine; I mainly threw it out there as a possibility for the tight crumb in case you were spending like 10 minutes mixing them lol. So plenty of people do knead in nuts/fruit/additions before the first rise but I know some others who like to mix them in via stretch-and-folds throughout the rise.
If you are unaware, stretch-and-folds (sometimes abbreviated as SAFs) are a method of "kneading" wet dough while preserving an open crumb. You essentially strengthen the dough by performing a series of folds throughout the course of the first rise (also known as "bulk fermentation"). Maurizio from The Perfect Loaf website has a good article about this on the King Arthur website: https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2019/07/22/bread-dough-bulk-fermentation. The Perfect Loaf has a lot of great information that I'd highly recommend checking out although I remember that as a beginner, his recipes used to scare the living crap out of me. His method of baking can seem pretty complicated at first so don't feel like you need to do exactly what he does.
Anyway, SAFs are a good way to strengthen wet doughs but wet dough generally can't be mixed/kneaded in the same way that a regular dough can be. Instead of placing in on the table pushing with the heel of your hand like how you might knead a normal dough, there are special kneading techniques used for slack doughs. If you look up videos on "French kneading" and the "Rubaud method," you'll kinda get an idea of how it's done. It pretty much involves lifting up the dough and letting it fall onto itself, either in the bowl or on the table. Wetting your hands slightly whenever dealing with the dough is also very useful since wet dough won't stick to wet hands. And shaping wet dough is really just a matter of having enough flour and being confident in your movements to create enough surface tension.
But again, wet doughs are generally not considered beginner-friendly and it's a good idea to become familiar with easier doughs first. Have you dealt much with enriched breads? I thinking finding a really basic, enriched white bread recipe (like that you might find for dinner rolls or a sandwich loaf) and getting good at that will help you familiarize yourself with dough in general before you move onto lean, European style breads. But I'm no expert; what matters is that you're enjoying yourself while you bake. :)
LOL it did take me like 10 minutes to knead those suckers in! I'll have to google some videos before I try that again. :-)
That is a wonderful link thank you! I had thought (being a novice bread maker and all) that those recipes that did the fold method were being "easy" on the amateur bread makers - not that it was an actual technique!
What do you mean by enriched breads? I did try this recipe and it turned out great (maybe not as brown as I would've liked, but still good) - https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/cinnamon-raisin-sourdough-bread-recipe
I could look up some dinner rolls recipes, it seems like they would be great to make vs buying at the store! Thank you for your help :-)
Enriched breads mean added fats such as oils or butter. Lean breads are without any added fats.
Benny
An "enriched" dough is one that contains significant quantities of added fat or sugar, like butter, milk, egg, oil, honey, or granulated sugar. These include that cinnamon bread you made as well as dinner rolls, brioche, challah, Hokkaido milk bread, cinnamon rolls, etc. Doughs like these tend to contain moderate quantities of water, be thoroughly kneaded before rising, and be overall much more forgiving. They are fluffy, soft, and tightly crumbed.
Meanwhile, a "lean" dough might contain a little bit of fat or sugar (like some pizza and ciabatta recipes I've seen call for a little bit of oil) but for the most part, the dough only consists of flour, water, salt, and yeast. These include all of the hearth breads so any kind of crusty bread, French bread, pizza, ciabatta, etc. These doughs tend to be wetter, stickier, more open-crumbed, and finicky. There are some exceptions though: bagels and bahn mi rolls are both made from a stiffer, well-kneaded dough. I'd consider the bread you made to be a lean dough because even though it includes cranberries and some other flavorings, the base dough is really made up of the four aforementioned ingredients.
I got my footing with bread baking by getting good at challah and Hokkaido milk bread rolls. It's mainly just to get a feel for working with dough in the first place and learn the fundamentals like kneading, shaping, and fermentation.
thanks for the info!
I do manage to make a mean pizza dough (though it's still not perfected).
I am trying KAR's butter enriched bread tonight (https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/butter-enriched-bread-recipe)
this is before the last proofing:
it should be ready to bake in about 45 minutes
Another great thing about enriched breads is that pretty much no matter what happens to them, all the butter and milk and stuff makes it taste great regardless. Though I suspect those will turn out wonderfully. :D
I love the combo. Mind if I steal that idea for a future bread?
You can steal so long as you share the result! ;-)
?
Using sourdough discard can transfer a lot of acid to your dough. The high acid load, depending on how much discard you used and how old it was, makes the proteolytic enzymes that break down gluten more active. The more gluten breakdown you get the stickier the dough will feel and the more overproofed the resulting bread can bake up.
Your bread looks really great for a new bread baker, you should be proud of it especially considering the challenges of using discard. There are a lot of sourdough discard recipes out there, crackers are what I use most of my discard for, although I’ve also used it for pancakes, naan and biscuits.
Ah, I hadn't thought about the acid!
Thanks, I appreciate it. :-)
I think I'll try crackers next, they look really tempting!