bulk fermentation and retarding
Hi there,
Just needing some guidance again. As it always happens, bulk fermentation isn't complete and I'm tired and sleepy so I've put the dough in the fridge to retard. The recipe calls for a 8-10 BF at 21c. and its BF'ed for about 7.5 hrs but it still doesn't look done so i popped it in the fridge and i'm heading to bed. It's 12:30 am and I have to work tomorrow and won't get to it until about 6pm. So it'll have to be in the fridge til then. Will it be over fermented? And what should i do with it after i get home from work? If it looks like it has completed BF during that time in the fridge, should i just shape it and bake it right away? And if it looks like it hasn't risen at all, should i leave it at room temp. until it rises more? I'm trying to go for an open crumb. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Good night.
cc
LoafLove, please provide the formula. 8-10 hr @ 21C is doable, but the Levain should be fairly small. To solve your dilemma you could do a number of things.
Once we see the formula, other ideas may come to mind. You can control the timing of any bread dough and should be able to work with your schedule.
If I solve your timing, will you clean my teeth? LOL
Danny
Lol. That made a lot more sense after I clicked on loaflove’s profile. ?
Lol. Sure I'll clean your teeth! That's my job. But too bad you're so far away. Ok so this dough i have BF'ed at room temp for 7.5 hrs yesterday. I threw it in the fridge for 16 hrs and it looks like it has risen more. it's been out of the fridge for 2 hrs now. Should i shape it now? I hope it's not over fermented. It's still kinda cold. If i shape it should i bake it right away? the last time i shaped cold fermented dough i ended up with a tighter crumb which i don't really like.
Best advice I can give you with so many unknowns is to lightly shape and proof a short time. Preheat the oven right away. Things are not optimal.
We can better help you for future bakes. Let us know how this one turns out. Say a prayer... The dough will need it :D
it was 400 g flour, 50g starter, 280g water. it wasn't fully fermented after 7.5 hrs at room temp. i was hoping sticking it in the fridge would almost stop the fermentation but it looked like it had risen in the fridge. I couldnt' get to it til now because i was working all day but my husband removed it from the fridge at 4pm. i was hoping to bring it to room temp before shaping and baking. but i'm taking your advice and just shaping while it's still cold then i'll final proof in fridge until oven is ready! Thanks for the advice. fingers crossed
2 questions
Best guess, site unseen is bake it soon.
it's about 23c right now , maybe around the same yesterday when it was fermenting at room temp. i had to go to sleep. couldn't wait for it to finish, so i stuck it in the fridge. the criteria i use is mostly trying to judge if it's about double in volume and jiggly like really big boobs ?
That sounds like it would be over-fermented. Many of the bakers here shoot for 30-50% rise. The dough should be doomed and rising up and rounded ate the edges. It is general consensus that doubled is over-proofed for sourdough.
it may have been ready at 7.5 hours...
:( is that why my last loaf didn't have a very open crumb like the way i usually like? i just took the lid off the DO and the oven spring looks ok . it has another 25 min to go.
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that crumb looks good! bland taste is usually due to lack of salt.
thank you! the crust tastes good. and the crumb seems better at the outside edges of the loaf. i might have skimped on the salt a bit. a 500g flour loaf asks for 9 g of salt. this one is a 400g flour loaf so i put 8 g of salt.
It looks fantastic! Totally worthy of being spread out underneath some of that fancy expensive delicious Irish grass-fed butter (which will help make up for the lacking salt.)
?
i always mess up the shape when i lift the parchment paper to drop the dough into the pot. you figure after all the reading i've done on this subject that i would know that double = overfermented. i must be a slow learner.
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LoafLove, is the image directly above the bread you just baked? If so, it looks really good. Open crumb is a totally different issue, here I’m talking about proper fermentation.
A properly fermented bread does not necessarily have extreme, open crumb.
Is the crumb shot at the top from your latest bake? Looking at the picture, it doesn’t appear to be grossly over-fermented. Your bread stands tall, and the slice profile and loaf shows signs of oven spring. This is not a failure, even though you didn’t get large cell structure.
Yes the uncut loaf is the one I just baked. And the first crumb shot too. Thanks so much for telling me to shape and bake right away! I would have waited too long!
there were a few dense gummy spots, so i think the dough was starting to deflate from overfermentation. so for my next loaf, don't wait for it to double before shaping , correct? and how do i get a more open crumb without adding more water? I've managed to get a more open crumb in the past, but I can't remember what i did. My past bakes are all a big blur now. i'm pretty comfortable working with 70% hydration , i think i can bump it up to 75% but don't want to if i don't have to. I'm very conservative with flouring my work surface, but after watching some videos of how some bakers dunk their dough into a bowl full of flour during shaping, i'm thinking i can be more liberal.
Are you attached to your present formula? It may be a great but I’m not familiar with it. But if you want to work with it that’s fine also.
what kind(s) of flour do you want to use? All white flour or a mixture of whole wheat and white flour?
Do you have time constraints? You mentioned timing with your schedule.
i'm willing to try new formulas. the one i have is a simple beginners one. It's actually supposed to be 500 g of flour, 70% hydration (350g water) , 50 g starter , 9 g salt. But since i'm practicing I've cut it down to 400 g of flour, 280 g water ( which is 70% hydration) 50g starter and 9 g salt. bulk ferment at 21c 8-10hr. i do 4 S and Fs , one every half an hour, half an hour into BF. I used to do like 16 turns each half hour because i love handling the dough but then i thought maybe i was over doing it so i cut it down to 4-5. I think the recipe calls for bread flour but i use canadian apf, white, and maybe about 10% whole wheat. The brand is rogers. I don't have time constraints on the weekends for the most part. One time i cheated and added a bit of yeast and it turned out to be the best loaf of bread i ever made.
Thank you!
Don’t forget to count the flour and water in the starter for your hydration ratio. (Not a big difference but it’s 71.7%)
From time to time we host an event called a “Community Bake”. It is an on-line attempt to share kitchens with fellow bakers around the world. We get together and bake a specific bread. Then document and photograph our experience of the process. Both successes and failures are posted so that others can learn from each other.
The bake that saw the greatest improvements (IMO) among the most users was Kristen’s Basic Open Crumb Sourdough. Her accompanying video is excellent and informative.
Should you decide to give it a try, post your results to the Community Bake (CB). Myself and many others are notified whenever a new post is added. We will reply and offer help or make suggestions if needed.
Danny
Loaflove I agree with Dan. That CB that Dan mentions was a great learning experience for me last year and was one of my first really big successes with sourdough.
Benny
Benny, if that CB was your break through, it was a miraculous one? I remember at some point your breads took a quantum leap in what seemed like an instant. Was it with Kristen’s bake?
It was certainly around that time, if not that bake. I'd have to look back at my photos of my baking to be sure. I think I wasn't building enough structure when developing the dough, then as a result they didn't get great oven spring. I started to do slap and folds, which helped and then finally added lamination during this CB. I think those two techniques really helped my sourdough baking a lot.
I'm back to doing 16 turns for each stretch and fold set lol. It's just very fun and enjoyable to handle dough.
Just make sure you’re much more gentle as you get further into bulk fermentation to not degas the great gas bubbles that you’ll bet forming from fermentation. Those gas bubbles of fermentation are flavour and needed for your crumb. Generally most people handle the dough less as bulk fermentation goes on.
Thanks for the reminder! Um, is my starter gonna be ok for 2 weeks unfed in fridge. We left for whistler for a week and I forgot to feed it so by the time we get back it will be 2 weeks unfed.
It should be fine, dude. It would be better if you had fed it but in my experience, if you have a reliable starter, it's pretty hard to kill it unless you put it in an oven or it gets moldy.
There will probably be a layer of liquid on top of it, that's called hooch, as long as there's no visible mold or anything off about it, it's fine to stir that back into your starter and feed it on your regular schedule until it gets back to full strength. It will probably be runny and thin until you feed it 2 or 3 times, and I usually make it a habit to feed it right after I use it or before I put it in the fridge, because I often go a few weeks without using it--I put it in the colder part in the back of the fridge and it goes dormant, but even then it will be kind of thin and weak until I feed it a few times.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much, I’ve left my starter in the fridge for up to 4 weeks without any issues, some people have left theirs from months and no problems. However, one time I was away for 4 weeks and something bad happened to my starter. I was able to revive it from my sourdough discard jar though.
Thanks for your input. I fed it after 16 days. I fed part of it straight out of the fridge. Then I fed the rest of it after letting it come to room temp. 3 hrs after feeding the first one. the second one seems to be doing better. Although the first one had only 45 g to start with. The second one had 75 g or so. Both fed 1:1:1 with unbleached apf. I guess letting it come to room temp first is a factor. I’m glad it’s not dead. So you think I should keep building it at room temp before refrigerating it again? Interestingly, there was no hooch after over 2 weeks of being unfed. My starter is mostly whole wheat flour when I store it in the fridge. When I want to bake with it I then feed it apf
If I haven’t fed my starter in a week I find one or two feeding is enough. Really I will watch to see how long it takes to double in volume. If I feed it 1:2:2 and ferment it at 80ºF it should double in 3-4 hours, if it can do that (it will usually keep going past double before it peaks) then it is plenty vigorous and I won’t give it another feed unless I need a lot more for a lot of baking.
Is it a good sign that it had no hooch after being unfed after 16 days?
It usually mean it hadn’t completely run out of food or not run out of food for very long.
oh good! must be slow eaters. thanks so much
Thanks Danny. I’ll give it a try!