Flat Bread
Hello,
This is my second loaf of bread and I keep on having this problem: my loafs are flat.
I make my bread with 300g of strong flour, 75g of white flour, 41g whole grain flour, 83 grams of sourdough starter(made with half water and half whole-wheat flour. Starter is 2 weeks old), 291g of water and 8g of salt.
I believe my problem is with shaping, I probably don't build enough tension since I don't have good enough technique. Also the other problem could be my "baneton" (bowl covered with a kitchen towel).
If you have any idea of why my loafs look like this please share it, and also I would be very welcoming of any tips regarding the handling of the dough and the shaping process.
Thank you in advance!
Edit:
I am from Spain, the flour used was:
Strong flour-Harina de Fuerza Alcampo
White flour-Harina de Trigo Gallo
Whole grain-Haeina de grano entero de trigo, Integral, con las 3 partes del trigo*,Gallo.
As for the process itself, timing and temperatures:
To start, the sourdough starter had very changing temperatures since this last week has been much warmer. During the first week(when I made my first loaf and got a pretty similar result) I kept the starter at around 22°C and fed it twice a day, during the second week I wanted to try out making the sourdough less integral and I started adding half white flour and half whole-wheat, this time it didn't rise as much and didn't have as much bubbles. I also skipped a few feedings(maybe I fed it once every two days) so that might be the reason.
For the next process, just to avoid talking about temperatures over and over, the temperatures at which I was working(handling the dough) was maybe 23°C, all waiting time(between stretches and also bulk rise) was made at around 25/26°C. I will specify temperatures when this ones are not followed. Also, for the prior loaf you can expect the same temperatures minus 3 degrees, so 20 and 22/23.
The day before I baked I fed my starter at 13:00, and waited until around 20:00 for it to grow and be active(as I said, it didn't rise as much as the starter from last week, this time it only rose about 20% while the prior week it rose 100% maybe a bit more). I added the flours, the water, and the sourdough starter, and I mixed until all four was wet. (Just to make it clearer and to give and example of the temperatures explained above, this flour mixing was done at 23°C)
After that I let it rest for 1h (and again, to give an example of what I earlier called "resting periods", this was done at 25/26°C). After letting it rest, I added the salt by almost poking the dough until I didn't feel the salt anymore. Then I did a set of stretch and folds(I couldn't tell you how many times, maybe 6 or 7, I don't think I went around it twice) by grabbing one side, stretching it and dropping it towards the opposite side of the bowl, then I let it rest for 1h.
I grabbed the dough from below,letting gravity stretch it and folded it into itself(like a soft folding technique for what I heard). I did that 4 times and then let it rest for another hour.
After the resting period I repeated the process again and let it bulk rise for 2 hours. As a quick summary, so far I have autolyse, did 1 normal stretch and fold set and other 2 softer folds (it was getting tense anyways), and then the bulk rise.
After the bulk rise I but the dough on a floured surface and stretched it to the sides making a rectangle, grabbed the left side and pull it towards the middle, did the same with the right side. Up side to de middle and bottom side to the highest side, then I let her rest in that same place, so at around 23°C or maybe lower by now, let's say 22°C for 15min, then I repeat the process and place it into my bowl with a kitchen towel and more flour. I place the bowl in a plastic bag and then to the fridge(3°C) overnight, for 8 hours.
After that I took it out of the fridge and put it in a place with direct sunlight at around 25°C, but the light very surely made it warmer. I did that for 1h and 30min until I did a "dent test" and it springed back somewhat slowly but left a dent.
After that placed the dough in a stainless steel pot that had been in the oven preheating for 10min to until it reached a temperature of 300°C(one side of the oven heating is not working, the top left side of the heating bars to me more precise so I am not sure that the temperature reached in the oven is the temperature that I set the over to be at).I attempted scoring it with out burning myself(complete failure at both of the tasks, I couldn't score it with the knife and I burned my finger :( ) put the lid on and into the oven. I baked it with the lid on for 30min, then without the lid at 250°C for another 20min.
After taking it out and going to check on the bottom I saw it was still moist, towards the center of the boule so I placed it upside down and left it in the oven, while the oven cooled down (with the oven door closed).
I then took it out, waited for the bread to cool down and rate it, and then remembered about taking the picture I shared with you earlier :).
I hope I explained everything well enough, if you have any doubts or need clarification about anything feel free to ask.
One thing I want to point out, and the same happened last time, is that when I pulled the dough out of the bowl into the pot I baked it in, it got stuck to the kitchen towel, not a lot, it was just a matter of pulling it for it to come out but it happened because the towel was wet at the bottom, I suppose because my bread had too much water content and it absorbed the flour I put in the towel. The videos I saw with my recipe the dough came it much drier and much more tense, that's why I think I might have a problem with one of the flours and very probably with my handling of the dough (and maybe not coating the bottom of the towel with enough flour, although I did flour it quite a lot)
Again, thank you!
What is your starter feeding schedule and inoculation?
To help you with this problem, we’re going to need a lot more information.
You provided the formula, now what’s the process you’re using for the bread? (Times and temperatures are important!)
First of all, thank you for your answer.
I have explained everything in detail above now but I will answer here again your specific questions:
I started by feeding my starter whole-wheat flour and water in a 1:1 ratio twice a day, every 12hourls. It takes around 7h to get it's maximum height. With that I baked my first loaf(I will attach a picture of the starter the day I baked with it, the rubber band marks the height right after the feeding, the rest is growth).
The first week I think I had a very healthy starter, after that, because I have been very busy I started forgetting more and more about the starter and probably fed it once every two days a mix of White flour and whole grain (half of each). It didn't rise as much not it had much bubble activity. I thought it was dying so I googled my problem and found this site, here, someone suggested another newcomer bread maker ? that he was probably not feeding his starter enough, so I followed what I read and started feeding my starter twice a day, sadly that was only the day before I started getting ready for baking. That means I fed it 3 times before I took some out to make the dough. By that time I have to say it was healthier, it had more activity and and it was growing maybe 30% after the feeding (still nothing comparable to the 100% growth I had the week before). Sadly I don't have a picture of the starter I used to make the loaf I showed in the post.
It might be that I didn't have a starter healthy enough but the prior week, I think it was healthy and it also didn't rise. But that was not the only difference, I cooked it on parchment paper with a bit of steam in the oven but it wasn't enough and it formed a very hard crust, so maybe the other loaf would have grown if it didn't form the crust.
Thank you again for your answer, let me know what you think now that I have explained it a bit more.
IMG_20200501_203300__01.jpg
Ahhh, we're getting somewhere! If you're feeding your starter long after it's mature, (you said it peaked in 7 hours and you fed in 12), that's a problem. Your starter should be doubling at least before using.
You said it only grew 30% before you used it in your bread. Bingo, we have a problem. It doesn't matter that last week your starter was doing better, for all intents and purposes, that starter doesn't exist anymore!
I would try to get onto a schedule that allows you to feed your starter when it's closer to peak. You said 1:1 feeding, but I think you're just referring to the hydration of the starter. The information missing here is the inoculation percentage. Basically, how much material are you starting with that you're adding new flour/water to? A 1:1:1 feed could look like 25 g liquid starter (100% hydration), 25 g water, 25 flour. But this high inoculation is likely to ferment very quickly and would not work in a twice a day scenario. Does this make sense?
What I meant when I talked about the other starter, the one that grew is that even with that starter my loaf didn't grow and stayed flat (but it could be because I limited it by not using a lid when baking).
About the feeding, should I feed it every 7 hours then? If that is the case I guess I will have to leave it in the fridge and take it out 2 or 3 days before I bake (at least that's what I've heard).
About the inoculation: It is honestly the first time I hear about this (still amazing to me how many things and variables there are, what an amazing world!). So far what I have been doing is just filling the pot. When I began making the starter I added half water half flour and kept on doing it until I needed the starter (I didn't discard anything) and it just happens that when I baked the pot was almost full and I used what I needed, after that, I kept on adding flour and water, so I don't really know how much I "start" with everytime I feed it (I could calculate it tomorrow and give you an update) but as you can guess, a lot.
By what you are saying, if I understood correctly is that my starter now ferments very very quickly, since I it is very high inoculation (probably is something like 5:1:1), and I shouldn't feed it twice a day because it would grow too fast so I would need to feed it more often or slow down the fermentation. (Please correct me if you have any hint of me misunderstanding something)
Thank you very much, this is being very helpful!
If I was baking a couple times a week, I would also keep my starter in the fridge, so I don't have to be feeding it all the time without using it.
Ideally, I'd try to get in 2-3 feeds before using it for bread (assuming it was in the fridge before). An every-7-hour feeding schedule sounds nightmarish to maintain! So.. change your inoculation! If every 12 hours works better, lower your inoculation so that it takes the amount of time that works for you. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention temperature in all of this. If it needs to be said, the hotter the ambient temp, the faster fermentation happens. Ideally all of your starter fermentation happens at a room temp around 24-30, but hey if it's a little cooler, it'll still work (just slower).
To achieve a 12 hour peak, you may need to lower your inoculation to anywhere from 1:3:3 to as much as 1:10:10 (or higher? I don't know your life :D) You kinda have to experiment and dial it in.
(But disclaimer: I wouldn't try these kinds of low inoculation percentages until you're pretty sure your starter is fairly active, i.e. at least doubling maybe tripling. If you can imagine trying to ferment a whole bunch of flour with not a lot of bacteria/yeast, you can see how this could be a problem)
And just as a general note, most sourdough newbie bread I see on this forum (and everywhere else!) is underfermented. It's dense and flat with a few larger holes. These bakers are using underactive starters –and likely not bulking long enough. (Unfortunately, these loaves are commonly misdiagnosed as being overfermented, but this is rarely the case)
As others have pointed out down below, your bulk was around 5 hours (bulk starts when starter meets new flour to ferment!). This may be a little on the short end for your formula, but it depends on temperature. I would look for at least a 50% rise during bulk, but be aware that any stretching and folding you do is degassing to some extent.
Another note: If you are going to do the overnight retard, two things to know:
1. You're likely going to need to let it proof a little (shaped in the banneton) before putting it in the fridge.
2. How long you do that for depends on your dough, your fridge temp, etc. I.E, you will need to do a little trial and error testing to find out what works for you. I like to see at least 30% rise in the banneton before I retard (if I do).
As I said to the other user that answered with that much of information, like you, thanks, a very honest thank you.
Now to the point. I will probably wait a few days until I see my starter is doing well again and then I will transfer maybe 10g to another pot, and give it 40g flour and 40g water. And see what it does and how long it takes to grow and all that. After checking andIand tweaking as necessary will put it in the fridge and 2/3 days before I bake I will take it out and feed it as usual to "revive" it. Does that sound good? For those revival feeds, I would have to do the same thing right? I could move 10g of my starter to another pot and add 40 and 40g (that way I can be switching between 2 pots because I honestly hate having the one I have now dirty with dry flour on the sides). How do you usually do your feedings? I was thinking I could keep some starter in the fridge too just as a back up in case it all goes south somehow!
Gracias por todo!
I would wait until your starter seems to be active again (this is assuming some kind of feeding schedule, do not neglect it at room temperature for days at a time). Then if you're not going to be baking for a bit, into the fridge it goes.
And yes, fit in a few feedings before baking. This may not need to be 3 days, the feeding *could* all be in one day if they were high inoculation and at warm temps. You can peak in a few hours if the all the factors are right.
I keep my starter in a pint (2 cups, sorry stupid imperial units) mason jar, but any container will do. I prefer a clear container that is taller than it is wide. This way you can directly observe the volume change. I too hate the flour on the sides! A little tiny spatula works for cleaning those up for me btw.
I'm at the point where I "eyeball" the inoculation for my starter, cause I don't want to remove it from the jar. So I discard some amount depending on roughly what inoculation I'm looking for, and then I add the flour and water to the mason jar, stir until no dry flour remains, clean the sides, and wait : )
Ok I will try it then. I'm afraid I won't be able to judge the inoculation like you do so the scale will be great ally :) I will try updating this when some improvement is made and I can tell/ask some more. But before that, one last question, when should I start making the inoculation? How a active do I need it to be?
Talk to you in a few days!
Hello, I promised an update and here it is!
I followed your advice and built a stronger starter, I also let it ferment for longer (1h so I could fit one more stretch too) and I also let it proof a bit in my new baneton before going into the fridge overnight. I also decided to blame the tools and bought some better quality flour (the one I used before was just normal supermarket flour), the previously mentioned baneton, a lame and the most shockingly useful,a bench scraper that came with the kit. The bench scraper helped a lot during shaping, and helped build tension. Here are two pictures of the end result:
IMG-20200531-WA0031.jpeg
IMG_20200531_134054.jpg
It had some spring, looked good to me and taste was as good as the last one. I am happy with my result but I will change a few things for the next time. I will probably try removing all wholewheat flour, and I will also bake it for longer with a lid on so I don't have to cook it that long without the lid. The crust was good, but a bit too hard for my taste, so I think that by doing that the crust will be a bit thiner. I am sure you can now find more mistakes and guide me some more! (Oh and for the starter I did 1:3:3, with flour being 30% rye, 30% bread wheat flour). In a few weeks I will have some more time and I can't wait to bake some more and try some new recipies with the discard too!
Thanks again for your tips, very informative and helpful!
That's actually pretty good for a 2nd loaf.
Zach's right about more specifics being needed about your procedures and timings, in order to give some kind of useful advice. Remember: "time and temperature are _ingredients_."
I'd also like to mention that the good folks at TFL are an international bunch. So if you were to give your country location, the brand names of the flour that you're using, as well as a more precise name/description of the types of flour, there's a good chance someone here will be familiar with those exact ingredients.
The terms "strong flour" and "white flour" just have too many variations, especially brand to brand, and country to country to be able to pin things down.
Bon chance, et bon appétit.
Thank you very much for your reply,
I have added much more information about the process and about the ingredients used, including brands. I hope it is a bit more useful.
Thank you again!
"Bulk ferment" starts as soon as the starter/levain is added to the dough.
It sounds like the bulk ferment lasted 5.5 to 6 hours. Which isn't too bad. But.... you used a whole wheat starter, which makes it very strong, and that would mean a shorter bulk ferment.
When you do an overnight proof in the refrigerator, the "finger poke test" is no longer a good test, because it is not accurate on cold dough. It would have been better to bake straight from the refrigerator.
Next time, just try to shorten the bulk ferment, and bake the could dough without having it sit at room temp first. And see if that improves things.
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There is a very experienced baker from Spain, livng in Mexico at present: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/user/abelbreadgallery
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Buena suerte, y buen provecho.
Hi!
Thanks for the answer and for the contact. The time I spent stretching and folding is probably 15minutes actually stretching and folding, and then the rest periods.
Should I not use that "bulk ferment" period of 2h that I setted up? Should I do it for one hour only or should I just shape and proof after the last stretch and fold?
Thanks in advance!
As a technical point of specification, your bulk ferment was not 2 hours. Your bulk ferment time started when you added the starter to the dough. So your bulk ferment was about 5.5 hours,
All these things are inter-connected:
By increasing one, you have to decrease something. Or by decreasing one, you have to increase something.
25/26 C is kind of warm, so I am thinking with all that whole wheat, you can either use less starter, or maybe use less bulk ferment time, and less proof time.
In any case, the time spent warming up the dough right before baking was likely not needed. You can bake immediately after taking out of refrigerator.
As a starting point, maybe take off just 1/2 hour from bulk ferment. I think it was the time sitting inthe sun before baking that made for the over-fermentation.
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On another point.... one purpose of a banneton is to "wick away" moisture, and dry the outer skin of the dough. A cane or soft wood banneton helps this drying process. But a hard bowl prevents drying out of the dough skin.
Until you get a cane or soft-wood banneton, here is a work-around: put a thick or fluffy soft towel in the bowl first. Then put a tightly woven cloth or towel (like a tea towel) on top of the fluffy towel. then dust the upper towel/cloth with rice flour, or a mix of 1/2 rice flour and 1/2 regular white flour. This will help dry the skin; and hopefully the fluffy towel underneath will soak up some of the moisture.
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Do not worry that it takes a few tries to get good bread. You are already doing well. It takes a while to learn how much water to use in the formula. Every formula has to be slightly adjusted to your local conditions. Every bag of flour is different. Even the same bag can lose or gain moisture as it sits in your pantry.
So, with experience, you will learn how to judge the dough at the point of mixing, the point of adding salt (if you do it separately) and the point of final shaping, whether it had too much or too little water.
Shaping is also a learned skill. I am still not good at it. Making the ball, and dragging it toward you, turning it, and dragging it again is an art. Then sealing the "seam" also depends on how much water was in the dough. It can be hard to seal a seam with too dry dough.
Buena suerte y buen provecho.
On further thought... Your hydration was 72.7%. (291 + 41.5) / (300 + 75 + 41 + 41.5) = 332.5 / 457.5
which is kind of high for a loaf with 18% whole wheat. (41 + 41.5) / 457.5
Excess water can also be a reason that the dough won't hold shape and it then spreads out.
So.... maybe try only 70% hydration next time, in addition to 1/2 hour less bulk, and not warming up the dough after taking out of refrigerator before baking.
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How did the "flat" bread taste? It looks good. Did it have a sweeter taste than 100% white bread?
Well to start I can only say thank you. When I posted here I definitely didn't expect many people would respond and definitely not people with so much knowledge, so really, thank you.
It tasted great, I can't really describe the flavour, I'm not sure it was sweater, it just had much more flavour and a flavour that was persistent after eating it and left you wanting some more. We are 4 at home and I bought bread(less than usual but I bought it anyways), and here we have pretty good bread but I can only tell you I could only taste the bread at lunch, there was nothing left to have dinner so I guess everyone liked it over the normal one. Flat bread 1-Comercial bakery 0.
Also for the baneton, you are giving me a great excuse, I was thinking about buying one and now I have a good reason ?.
Hopefully by next week I can make a new loaf with my new baneton, less fermentation time(and no heating-fermeting), and more less hydration.
Again thank you very much. Gracias!
Hello, I promised you an update too so here it is!
I followed your advice mixed with the ones from the other user: built a stronger starter, I also let it ferment for longer (1h so I could fit one more stretch too) and I also let it proof a bit in my new baneton before going into the fridge overnight and baked right out of the fridge. I also decided to blame the tools and bought some better quality flour (the one I used before was just normal supermarket flour), the previously mentioned baneton, a lame and the most shockingly useful,a bench scraper that came with the kit. The bench scraper helped a lot during shaping, and helped build tension. Here are two pictures of the end result:
It had some spring, looked good to me and taste was as good as the last one. I am happy with my result but I will change a few things for the next time. I will probably try removing all wholewheat flour, and I will also bake it for longer with a lid on so I don't have to cook it that long without the lid. The crust was good, but a bit too hard for my taste, so I think that by doing that the crust will be a bit thinner. I am sure you can now find more mistakes and guide me some more! (Oh and for the starter I did 1:3:3, with flour being 30% rye, 30% bread wheat flour). In a few weeks I will have some more time and I can't wait to bake some more and try some new recipes with the discard too!
Next few times I will try fine tuning this recipe to have it "locked" for me, so when it's time to show off I dont screw up! :D After that I will play a bit lowering bulk ferment as you said and seeing the results. Any other advice? Another promised update for when I try lowering the ferment time!!
Thanks again for your tips, very informative and helpful!
It looks nice and probably tasted good. From the photo and your description it looks overfermented, and likely insufficient gluten development.
Shorten the bulk ferment time, and knead longer and more aggressively.
Hello and thanks for you answer (also sorry for not replying earlier!).
I changed things a bit and got a much better looking bread, in a few weeks I will be trying to reduce ferment time, since this time I expanded it (I couldn't do both at the same time! :D).
I do not knead the dough, I fold do stretch and fold but I am curious of when and why should I knead or fold. I am learing bit by bit. What I taught was that with sourdough people didn't knead it, because they would let gas created in the ferment escape, but I guess that is not the reason so I am now questioning that too!
Again thanks for your answer, sorry for my late response and have a nice (hopefully baking) day!
Pd: I have posted some pictures above, in the other comments in case you want to see the results I got at the end. I also explained the changes I did. Cheers!
Strength improves strength and the ability to hold gas produced during fermentation. Gas in bread comes from fermentation and from air incorporated in mixing and kneading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneading