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FWSY Hybrid Levain Doughs - Proofing Issues

edsam's picture
edsam

FWSY Hybrid Levain Doughs - Proofing Issues

Hi there. I’m new to this forum. I’m UK-based and I’m new to artisan bread baking, beyond a little experimentation with sourdough in the past. I need some help with proofing my hybrid levain dough!

I’m currently working my way through Ken Forkish’s ‘Flour Water Salt Yeast’ book (I know it’s not for everyone, so bear with me please). Generally I’m really enjoying it and pleased with the results, but I’m an amateur and have lots to learn.

I’ve been following the recipes as precisely as I can (ingredients, weights, temperatures and times), and I’m having a few issues with my first few hybrid levain breads (Pains de Campagne and Field Blend #2). I always halve the recipes (one loaf rather than two).

The final results have been good so far, but I haven’t been completely satisfied with the process - specifically the final proofing of these hybrid levain doughs. After bulk fermentation of around 4-5 hours (dough reaches 2.5 times its size at room temperature) I shape the loaves (they can still be a bit sticky) and pop them into a dusted proofing basket, wrap in a plastic bag and refrigerate overnight.

After 12 hours of proofing in the fridge, I’m finding the dough has risen substantially, slightly domed above the top of the basket. Despite generous dusting with flour, the proofed dough is sticky in places and very difficult to get out without tearing it.

I have my first Field Blend #2 in the fridge at the moment, having shaped it only 3 hours ago, and it’s already peaking above the top of the basket.

Why is it rising so high, so fast at proofing stage in the fridge, after bulk fermentation? Everything else has been by the book. Surely it can’t be over-proofed after just a few hours, when the recipe calls for it to be in the fridge for around 11-12 hours?

For reference, the ingredients I’ve used in this current loaf are:

  • 180g levain (white and whole wheat flour):
  • 270g Marriage's Finest Strong White Bread Flour:
  • 88g Shipton Mill Dark Rye Flour;
  • 43g Marriage's Strong Wholemeal Bread Flour;
  • 310g Water;
  • 11g Fine Sea Salt;
  • 0.25 tsp DCL Instant Yeast.

I’d be grateful for any tips or advice on what I might be doing wrong, bearing in mind that I’m trying to stick to the FWSY recipes for now, while I learn the fundamentals.

Photo of my most recent Pain de Campagne as an example of the final outcome I’m getting with these hybrid levain doughs.

Thanks!

 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

My first thought upon looking at your photo was -- what nice bread.

Field Blend #2 is one of my go-to breads.  There are a couple of things that can produce what you are describing.  First, is your refrigerator 37F (or 3C)?  If so, then your dough can sit there for twelve hours and be ok.  If your refrigerator is a little warmer than that, leaving the dough to proof for twelve hours is too long.  Second, Field Blend #2 includes instant yeast, which makes the bulk fermentation go faster (as you noted already), but will also make the final proofing go faster (especially in a too-warm environment).  This ties in of course to the temperature of your refrigerator, but instant yeast is an additional factor.  Third, what is the temperature of the water that you are mixing in?  When the dough goes into your refrigerator, it does not immediately get cool.  Instead it gradually cools, and if the dough is very warm (I always check the dough temperature at the beginning of bulk fermentation and measure the kitchen temperature too), it will continue to ferment until reaching a cool temp like 37F (or 3C).

Check your fridge temperature.  I suspect that is the primary factor.

Happy baking -- and stay safe and stay healthy.

Ted

edsam's picture
edsam

Thanks so much for your welcoming response Ted.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I’ve been measuring my fridge temperature this morning and it’s sitting around 6-7°C, so I’ll lower that to 3°C.

I’ve been measuring final mix and room temperature each time I bake as well. For my last two loaves (Pain de Campagne pictured previously and now Field Blend #2), final mix has been 25-25.5°C, but room temperature has been fluctuating anywhere between 21-23°C over the course of bulk fermentation. I’m guessing the warm room is a contributing factor as well? If I can’t find a cooler spot, should I reduce the water temperature / final mix temperature by a couple of degrees?

My first Field Blend #2, which was proofing when I posted the initial question last night, is now cooling and looks pretty good, but I had the same issue. You can see from the photos just how much the dough had risen during 11 hours the fridge overnight - the proofing basket is 20cm in diameter. It was also completely stuck to the basket again, so I had to tear it, causing significant deflation. Could all of this also explain why I’m not getting any dramatic blooming in my Dutch Oven?

This loaf has a more sour flavour than I'd like - I’ll have to work on toning that down too!

Thanks again,
Ed

 

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

If you use riceflour to dust your banneton the dough wil slide out very easy. 

edsam's picture
edsam

Thanks for the tip. I’ve just ordered a bag of rice flour, so hopefully that’ll resolve my sticky-basket issues. Looking forward to the day we can all shop normally for baking ingredients again!

edsam's picture
edsam

Re-reading the recipe for Forkish’s Field Blend #2, I’ve just realised that I completely missed the “preshape” step.

I omitted to preshape the dough with an extra dusting of flour and allow the extra 15 minutes of bench-time after bulk fermentation before it goes into the proofing basket.

It looks like that step is specifically intended to address the stickiness of dough with rye flour in the mix, so hopefully doing that next time will make a difference!

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Fear not.  Your dough will survive.

The pre-shaping step helps with a sticky dough, but the pre-shaping also helps build more surface tension, which assists the dough to maintain a nice shape from being in a tighter package.  Not all recipes call for pre-shaping, but many do, and they encompass a variety of flours and hydrations.

Happy baking -- and stay safe and stay healthy.

Ted

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Might also want to try chilling the banneton if the dough temps seems warm.  That way the banneton won't insulate warm dough against the fridge temperature trying to cool it.  

You are right, that full banneton looks overproofed.  But if it turned out such a lovely loaf, you might consider a larger banneton or less dough after seeing what the lower fridge temp does.  The rice flour can also be blended with other flours including rye up to one part rice flour to 4 parts other flour.  A shaker makes a handy new toy.  Find one with a cover lid.  :)

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

Wich one do you use?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I hit a sale a few years back on no name stainless shakers.  Fits my hand nicely and has a twist on mesh strainer with a simple pull off cap.  I put a variety of things in them, cocoa, powdered sugar, etc.  a small sieve in the flour bag works too or a diy jar with drilled holes.  

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

Thanks I though a mesh strainer was a good idear but now I know for sure. 

edsam's picture
edsam

Thanks for your tips and advice everyone, what a great community on here. So:

  • I have the fridge temperature adjusted down to 3°C;
  • I’ll try to keep the room temperature a little cooler during bulk fermentation;
  • I’ll chill the proofing basket if the dough still seems too warm;
  • I have my rice flour for dusting on order (and I have a shaker);
  • I’ll add a preshaping step for my stickier doughs; and, after all that,
  • I’ll reduce the amount of dough in my proofing basket as a last resort (my Dutch Oven is a little too small to accommodate a loaf from my larger proofing basket). 

Let’s see how it goes!
Ed

edsam's picture
edsam

Hi all, thanks so much again for the advice on my questions at the weekend.

My second Field Blend #2 worked out much better, as you can see from the photos below. I think temperature (room and fridge) was the biggest factor (thanks Ted), but the pre-shaping step and dusting advice for the proofing basket clearly made a difference as well. However, I'm not getting any bloom in the oven.

So far, having baked a variety of great-tasting FWSY loaves over the last month, I haven't got really good natural bloom once. I follow Forkish's recipes as precisely as possible, including baking seam-side up in a Dutch Oven. I'm tempted to start scoring my loaves, but would appreciate other suggestions first. Why am I not getting that bloom naturally? As you can see from the pictures of this loaf, the seam isn't even visible - is it sealing up as the dough proofs?

I keep a log of my baking attempts and outcomes here - feel free to peruse. Where some of my past loaves look to have bloomed slightly, it's only where I tore the dough getting it out of the basket, so this is something I'd really like to improve on.

Ed