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Oven spring and crumb troubleshooting advice?

Pinja's picture
Pinja

Oven spring and crumb troubleshooting advice?

Hi! I've been baking for several years, but recently moved to a new apartment and struggling with variables.  In general my bread always tastes good and has a good crust, it's the crumb and oven spring I'm struggling with.  I've been trying to follow the idea of "watch the dough, not the clock," but I feel like I'm getting mixed messages between all the "tests." I have some suspicions about a combination of factors, but could use some advice about which ones are the most likely causing issues! This is long because I'm trying to give detail, but a summary of my suspicions is at the bottom.  

I made a basic white loaf to test out some suspected issues, and followed the basic recipe as given: all white bread flour, levain 15% of flour weight, 80% hydration, 2% salt.  

Problem 1: I keep seeing that it takes several hours for starter to double in volume, and mine doubles sometimes in a single hour. Room temp is not unusually hot. It has never passed the float test, but I've also read that the float test isn't always 100% accurate, especially for non white grains (and here I confess that I feed mine 25% rye). My starter is kept at room temp, fed once a day at 100% hydration, survives being starved for a week at room temp or weeks in the fridge, and always smells like sticking your head in a bucket of ripe apples. It's indestructible.  

After confirming it failed the float test a few hours after feeding, though at what would appear to be its "peak," I built a levain with it using 1 part starter to 2 parts flour and 2 parts water.  It doubled in an hour and passed the float test.  

I had autolysed the flour and water for about 45 minutes and then added the levain and salt.  I left it at room temp for 6 hours, stretching and folding every hour for the first 3 hours. 

At that point it looked and felt great, exactly like all the professional high hydration dough videos I've watched (80% is high for me). I divided it in two mini dough balls and preshaped them, let them rest, then shape them and put them in flour lined ceramic bowls, covered in plastic, in the fridge overnight. 

Potential problem 2: the dough didn't noticeably rise, just got really extensible, soft and noticeably fluffed, but not anything I'd call rising, really.  

8 hours later, nothing has happened.  Dough is super cold and stiff, fails the poke test, but there are large bubbles under the surface. I take them both out onto the counter for 2 hours.  After that, a poke test looks OVERPROOFED! Visible bubbles, dough is soupy.  Loaf 1 I pour into the hot Dutch oven and it's a pancake.  Loaf 2 I reshape, rig up a makeshift couche so it doesn't turn into a puddle again and leave on the counter while baking loaf 1. 

Both mini loaves baked 15 mins with lid on at 250C, 15 mins with lid off at 230C. 

Results: 

Loaf 1: basically ciabatta. I'm happy with the crumb but not the shape.  It lost 21% of mass during baking.  

Loaf 2: incredible oven spring, even too much.  Crumb has large holes and dense areas, crust is soft and chewy but not bad. It lost 14.5% of mass in baking. 


Neither appear overproofed to me (maybe I'm wrong?), although the dough felt badly overproofed. 

In the past, my best loaves have been bulked in the fridge, shaped and then left for an hour or so before baking, but why does this work and how can I get it proofed enough without over proofing or losing shape? I like the idea of the final proof happening in the fridge because of the oven spring from colder dough, the scheduling convenience, cold dough being easier to handle, and the idea that I'm trying to handle the dough less at later proofing stages, but I'm not sure it's really working.  

Suspected issues: 

1. I should use my starter sooner after feeding (and why is it so extremely fast?) 

2. ambient temp is too cold for the first several hours of proofing time

3. I should use more or less levain in the build? A super active starter suggests to me that I should use less, but the final crumbs tend to look underproofed, so.... 

4. longer bulk time in room temp?

5. fridge is too cold (4C): forget the fridge entirely, or proof it most of the way at room temp after shaping before fridge? 

6. more time at room temp after fridge and before baking? 

7. shape after fridge instead of before? 

8. less hydration in initial build? 

9. just practice handling high hydration dough more? I'm fairly OK with my shaping techniques (for my purposes at least)--it's what happens to the dough after shaping that's bothering me. 

Any ideas on where to start troubleshooting would be great! I feel like I'm missing something obvious right in front of my face! 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I've read similar stories about things changing when someone moves.  Here are my thoughts.

1. Room temp is different.  Humidity could be different.

2. Refrigerator temp is different.

3. Water is different.  Even if you move within the same city, your water could be coming from a different source, or is treated differently in a different water treatment plant.  If nothing else, the water pipes could be different, and are affecting the water.  Or mold could be growing inside the "aerator" on the faucet of your kitchen sink, or was growing in the old apt, but not in the new.

4. Oven is different.

(You did not confirm if you are using the exact same flour, or a different brand when you moved. So that is a possibile factor.)

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your post correctly, as you did not give explicit "before" and  "after" (moving to new apt) descriptions of your starter's behavior. 

But, on the surface, it sounds like your starter is now stronger and faster.  And your new refrigerator is warmer.  And your room temp is warmer.  If any of those are true, then all your "normal" bulk/proof times are now over proofing, and you need to cut back.  So, it could be that simple: just bulk-ferment and proof for less time.

Why is the starter stronger and faster after moving?  Why is the bread flatter?  If nothing else changed, It could be the water!

So, in essence, you need to "adjust" (tweak) all your recipes for your new conditions.

 

Pinja's picture
Pinja

Thanks so much for the response!

To answer your questions: I moved within the same city, which is known for having low humidity and very good (but soft) water. But you're totally right--I didn't even consider that the water might be different, and the oven is definitely better. I use a mix of flours within the same 2 brands and haven't changed that. However, I wasn't able to bring the starter culture as such to the new place and has been rehydrated from when I dried it out, and I'm sure it's changed a bit. But it generally has always behaved like this: doubling in an hour at room temp, indestructible, smells like apples, and fails the float test at several hours after feeding. I guess something about the combination of local flour and water and ambient whatever in the air could make it behave like this and just necessitate me adjusting to its quirks. I should add that overall I'm really attached to it. It was initially built from cider lees several years ago and has always been extremely precocious. 

I guess what I'm wondering is whether I'm overproofing or underproofing, as my dough has qualities of both? I don't get much of a visible rise, or that cloud-like jiggle that I see in videos, unless I leave it at room temp for hours and hours--and then it collapses when I take it out of a banneton. But if I try to proof it less or retard it, the dough is firm and fails the poke test, sometimes has good oven spring but is often dense. 

How do you balance structure and proofing, and why does my bread collapse when it looks proofed enough (but then makes great crumb in ugly loaves) but the bread in videos doesn't? 

And finally, I don't often see people recommending to bulk cold and then shape shortly before baking, but that seems to work best for me and I don't really know why. I should think that we want to handle the dough less at later stages of the process? 

I think I'll do another round of white bread experiments with the same recipe, and test out a same-day bake with all room temp proof, just to see what it looks like, a cold bulk, and a cold retard with a room temp final proof, to try to isolate the variables of time and temp on the two proofing cycles. 

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I think that is your main difference in the new place.  

Your standard formula/procedure depends highly on the cold bulk ferment time.  And I think you said the new fridge is warmer than the old.  So maybe tweaking the fridge temp is the way to go. Just guessing.

My fridge has two temp adjustment knobs, one in the freezer, and one in the fridge proper.  Both have an effect on the fridge temp.  Allow 36 hours to re-stabilize , due to the built-in daily defrost cycle.

Bon chance.