The Fresh Loaf

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How long should starter stay at peak volume?

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

How long should starter stay at peak volume?

Hi all,

I’m hoping that some out there may be able to offer advice. I’ve recently made two starters, one of which I used for several months and one of which is much newer. With both, the volume of the starter starts to collapse almost as soon as it has reached double. Is this normal or cause for concern?

On The Perfect Loaf site, I see that Maurizio’s starter takes about four hours to get to double its volume and then maintains that volume for another six hours afterwards. Mine can take as little as four hours to double but then immediately starts to collapse.

For feeds, I’m using 20g starter, 15g whole grain rye, 35g white bread flour, 50g water. I’ve tried adjusting the proportion of starter, temperatures etc and in those ways I can adjust how long it takes to double - but it still collapsed very soon after. I’ve experimented with different white flours but this also doesn’t change things.

My concern is that perhaps this means my starter is running out of steam when proofing dough and that this could be a factor in why the crumb of my loaves is slightly denser than I’d like.

A possibly related issue is that the gases from my starter when it’s past its peak smell a little eggy. This would make me think it had gone bad - except that I’ve noticed this with the two different starters (and I can’t see any way that any bad bacteria could have transferred between the two). And I’ve seen some suggestion online that this can be quite normal.

Any advice really appreciated - thank you!

Mike

BaniJP's picture
BaniJP

Every starter is and behaves different. It depends on temperature, hydration, flour type, feeding schedule, probably even air pressure (and maybe also the position of the moon :D).

As long as your starter clearly at least doubles in volume, peaks and falls, without emitting any bowel-turning gases, it most definitely is fine.

A dense crumb in your bread can have many reasons and your starter can be one of them, but shouldn't if it's very active.

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

Thank you BaniJP! That’s quite reassuring. I just saw there was an error in my original post - my feeding formula is actually 20% active starter, not 40% as I said above. But it sounds like you don’t think what I’m seeing is too much of a concern in any case, which is good to hear.

If others have starters that behave similarly (in terms of rapid collapse and smell), I’d be really interested to hear about it.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

hmmm. Sulfer smell?   Try this experiment, take part of the fallen starter and cover with a spoon or two of water to prevent drying out, then let it sit several days. Waiting for a second rise and change in aromas before feeding.  

You didn't mention temperature.

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

Thanks so much Mini - the smell is a bit sulphury so I’ll definitely try this. Do you suggest leaving it at room temperature for that time rather than in the fridge? And when you say “waiting for a second rise and change in aromas”, you mean that if left without food like this you expect that after a few days it might start to rise again of its own accord (at which point I start feeding it)?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the idea being... if there is a little bacterial mischief going on and the starter hadn't quite made the final phase to lower pH or acidic enough to boot it out.  Letting the starter stand for a longer time period should lower the mischief makers long enough to let the good bacteria catch up and encourage more yeast if the rise is more bacterial in nature.  Someone may know more about the sulfer smells and their cause than I do and as always, welcome to put me straight or suggest starting over with a new starter attempt. Wild starters are a little like a kitchen lottery.

Yes, wait for the yeast to raise the starter or at least make sure it smells good-strong-yeasty before feeding again. Also give it some counter time and feeds with peaking cycles for at least a few days before chilling.  Let the starter start to rise a little before chilling showing signs of life.  stirring the starter occasionally will help bring the aromas forward so you can smell them easier and test the texture as well as circulating food and wee beasties.  :) 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/58181/micro-bakery-starter-levain-problems

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

That’s great advice - thanks very much. I’ll report back on results!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mike, can you supply the link to the post that Maurizio states, “ On The Perfect Loaf site, I see that Maurizio’s starter takes about four hours to get to double its volume and then maintains that volume for another six hours afterwards. Mine can take as little as four hours to double but then immediately starts to collapse.”

I trust Maurizio, but from what I read this sounds hard to believe. I am always ready to learn...

Thanks,
Danny

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

Hi Danny,

Sure - I don’t want to put words in Maurizio’s mouth but that’s what I took from this post https://www.theperfectloaf.com/sourdough-starter-maintenance-routine/

Any further thoughts very welcome!

Mike

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks, Mike. The article is lengthy (and great). Can you give me an idea of where to look for that statement.

I am not challenging you, just interested to learn. 

6 hours at max rise is a very long time in my opinion. If this is possible, I would like to know about it. I’m thinking that max rise might hold 1 - 1 1/2hr at most. But I may be wrong.

Danny

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

Hi Danny,

Yes, it’s a great article - extremely useful for those of us who are fairly new to this. I took it to be quite clearly saying throughout that (apart from the eventually flattening dome) the overall volume gradually increased or held steady for several hours (eg at 2pm, by which time it’s already more than doubled in size, “After this initial explosive growth things will slow down, but upward growth will continue for many hours”). That seemed to be confirmed by 10pm being “the peak” - and only then streaks becoming visible on the glass as the height starts to drop a little.

Still, I’m reassured by your posts here since what you describe is closer to my own experience. It sounds like this means very long maintenance of peak volume isn’t a prerequisite for a decent starter. (I’ve only been going at this for a few months, so I’m still at a very early point on the learning curve!).

Mike

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mike, once you become familiar with your starter you will become fairly accurate at estimating the time to maturity.

I have the ability to control the temperature during fermentation. If I want to mix the dough in 4 hours the proofer is set to 82F and the mix is 1:1:1 or maybe 1:2:2. If the starter is feed more heavily (1:5:5 or so) and/or fermented at a lower temp the time to maturity will be increased. This is especially useful when you want to ferment the levain overnight and don’t want it maturing too early.

HTH
Danny

HansB's picture
HansB

I'm with you Dan. Staying at peak for 6 hours? I'd have to see it to believe it.

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

This is all reassuring - thanks! It’s possible I’m misinterpreting Maurizio’s post of course - but either way, it’s good to know that from the sound of things the rise and fall cycle of my starter isn’t unusual or necessarily a problem. Now there’s just the eggy gases to worry about! (Fingers crossed for Mini Oven’s suggestion helping on that front)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mike, I took another look at your post.

In response to this, “ I’ve tried adjusting the proportion of starter, temperatures etc and in those ways I can adjust how long it takes to double - but it still collapsed very soon after. I’ve experimented with different white flours but this also doesn’t change things.

My concern is that perhaps this means my starter is running out of steam when proofing dough and that this could be a factor in why the crumb of my loaves is slightly denser than I’d like.

I read your concern as this. The starter does not retain it’s max rise for long enough. If the levain (produced from your starter) is mixed into the dough and it doesn’t maintain the rise long enough, then because of this the crumb will suffer because the gas in the dough is likely to fall.

If that assumption is correct and I understand your concern, I have good news!

  • A levain is simply a starter that is mixed greater in volume in preparation for the dough.
  • A bread dough is very similar to a super large levain

The time required for fermentation is mainly determined by the temperature and the ratio of cultured flour (starter flour) to total flour. In the case of a starter or levain max maturity is often used to determine readiness for use, not so with bread dough. Maximum maturity of bread dough is to be avoided at all cost. If you allow the dough to reach max maturity it is grossly over proofed and any oven spring is completely impossible. Many breads are considered fully bulk fermented once they obtain an increase in size of 30-50%. This way the yeast are still active and available to produce much more gas. It is in the growing stage, not fully matured in any respect. When this type of dough hits the hot oven the yeast are still quite able to produce gas and consequently will cause expansion producing the highly desirable oven spring, open crumb, and ear(s).

Did I understand one of your concern properly?

Danny

MikeBakes's picture
MikeBakes

Hi Danny,

Yes, that’s partly what was on my mind - whether, if my starter runs out of steam so quickly, then perhaps my dough also would before it’s had time to fully proof. All the good points you make here are reassuring. I guess I also wasn’t allowing for the salt and lower hydration in the dough (compared to the 100% hydration starter) presumably slowing the yeast down quite a lot. Thanks!

Mike