Tartine in a loaf pan?
So, I don't have any real baking experience. I've made several tartine breads, that all came out great. What I want though is to adapt the tartine recipe for baking in loaf pans so we have uniform sandwich breads. I've also increased total by 50%. The idea is to get 2 big loaves that last longer than the rustic loaves we usually massacre within 2 days. Every time I've tried to accomplish this, my bread comes out heavy, rubbery, dense, moist. Like barely baked, kind of like oatmeal bread. Is tartine just a bad recipe for loaf pans? Too wet? What can I do to better adapt this? FYI, the flavor is great, the crumb looks good, crust is excellent, and overall it tastes baked, but it's just way to doughy and dense inside. Thanks in advance for any help.
Just to get the right picture of what's changing to what....
You took the same formula for a "bare" boule baked on a stone, and did everything the same, but just baked it in a tall "Pullman" style loaf pan? Or was it in a lower style loaf pan commonly used for quick breads?
What was the dough proofed in before baking in the pan: an oblong banneton close in size to the loaf pan, or in the loaf pan itself? Was it baked in the loaf pan covered or uncovered, or what combo of the two?
how much dough (weight) did you typically bake when you did boule style? And how much dough (weight) went into the pan for that style?
I have some ideas for suggestions, but I want to get the right mental-picture first.
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Here's where I'm going: the pan sides are covering more surface area than when the boule cooked "bare", therefore there is less surface area to lose water through. You're trying to get rid of, "bake off", the same amount of water through a smaller surface area. And then when the top crusts-over/browns, preventing any more "bake off", not enough of the water has been baked off. I had a similar problem with my high hydration whole grain doughs.
Here's what I did to bake off the water before the crust hardened: Bake at a lower temp for a longer time.
(You can also try lowering your hydration percentage 3 or 4 points to help it.) So... at the lower temp, the internal water is still baking off, but the top crust takes longer to harden/brown, so there is more time for water to bake off before the crust prevents any more water leaving.
And of course, this means you have to bake it for a longer time than with a pan-less boule.
I've been baking 1200 g boules, 75-95% whole wheat, 85-90% hydration in a dutch oven. Here are my times. These are just ball-park illustrations, your loaf-pan bakes will be different:
380 F seems low for artisan bread, and 71 minutes seems like a long time, but that's what it takes me to get enough water out of a 1200 g boule before the crust sets. And I need all that water to work the whole grain dough and get a good rise.
It takes experimenting. I've done 13 artisan style sourdough boule bakes since joining TFL and have made 3 loaves that I'm really satisfied with. But I think I have it "dialed in" now.
TL;DR: bake longer at a lower temp.
Thank You!
-Pullman style pans, but slightly bigger than standard size.
-Proofed in the pan, same amount time as the boules, 3-4 hours.
-I have a huge brazier type pot that I put the whole loaf pan in. 30 mins covered, 30 mins uncovered.
-My boules were per Tartine= 1000g, loaves I pushed to 1500g.
I had not really considered the 'baking off' of water, and in fact added a 1/4 cup water to the hot brazier when I first put the loaf pan in. The hope was to really encourage an aggressive spring. No wonder I'm making play-doh loaves.
You've been hugely helpful, thanks.
Mini and I corresponded with a baker in Australia with a similar set-up, wherein she had a "container within a container" and was wondering why she had to bake for two hours, and it was still gummy.
Mini is able to distill suggestions into a concise comment better than I, so I'm sure her response will be better... but here goes:
Just use the Pullman pan, no brazier/pot/dutch-oven. You'll have to experiment a few times to find optimum temperatures, times, and when to uncover.
Whether your Pullman pans came with lids, or you use aluminum foil, I'd suggest still baking covered for the first 30 minutes. I'm not much of a loaf-pan baker, so just take that as a suggested starting point.
(Assuming you meant a batch of 1500 g dough, divided into two loaves, not 1500 g all in one loaf.) You will have to lower the temp for a 750 g loaf, compared to the temp recommended for a 500 g loaf, and bake it longer, especially in a pan, which insulates the loaf compared to a bare boule. (And with the loaf pan inside the pot, you had double insulation.)
And experiment with lower hydration. When proofing in a metal or glass pan, the dough won't lose as much moisture as when proofing in a banneton that allows moisture to be wicked away.
And I second Mini's suggestion of taking the loaf out of the pan for it to finish baking.
Assuming you are using an electric oven with an exposed bottom element, it might be beneficial to put some kind of baking pan or sheet of aluminum foil on the rack below the rack holding the loaf pan. That would block the direct (radiant) heat and help to prevent the underside from getting over-done, especially after it is removed from the loaf pan.
Awesome, thank you. Very helpful. I'll try to give an update after the holidays.
I remember this one from a few years ago with FWSY country blonde… http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45916/square-blonde
I also have heard of people starting at about 450 for the first 15 min or so, then lowering to around 350.
Thank you!
Excellent suggestion!
I use this trick a lot with my pan loaves and not only does it help drive off the water, it makes for a nicer crust on the sides and bottom.