Poolish Puzzlement
I am a bread making novice, but have learned to make a lean dough bread, using slap and fold method, quite successfully. I live in UK, so do not want to use instant yeast, as they all have ascorbic acid and emulsifiers added. I prefer organic fresh yeast, but have active dried yeast as backup. I have a Brod & Taylor proofing box so can keep temperature steady overnight.
My current recipe uses 400g strong bread flour, 100g whole wheat bread or rye flour, 350 g room temp water, 7 g salt and 12 g fresh yeast.
It has been suggested that a poolish would give us an improved, but more mellow flavour than sourdough, so as my family adapt from white industrial loaves I thought it would be ideal next step.
However, I am confuddled as everywhere I have looked has different formulas ( and a lot of them haven't even done their own maths correctly), I cannot find a consistent percentage of yeast to add to the poolish, ( I'd like to know both fresh and active dried amounts to use), and the correct amount to then add to the final dough. I can make the poolish either 3-7, or 10 - 12, hours ahead.
Also should the poolish be kept in an airtight container, or is covering a bowl with cloth or cling film okay ? Can it be kept for longer in the fridge and if so how long would you take it out at room temp for before adding to rest of dough ?
Any help would be much appreciated.
PS. Any recommendations for books which cover preferments in detail ?
Any type of pre-ferment will improve the flavor of your bread. The more fermentation time you have the better the taste. Poolish is one of those pre-ferments.
As for how much yeast to add to your poolish would depend on how much pre-ferment your making. Generally it’s only a pinch (1/4 tsp). Sounds small but it does work.
I would do overnight pre-ferments. Cover the bowl with cling wrap. Some recipes call for room temp, some call for refrigerated. The fridge should give you a longer ferment and enhance the flavor more. I would typically do a 12 hour poolish in the fridge. Adjust the time to fit your schedule. Take it out about an hour before you mix your final dough.
To convert fresh yeast to active or instant:
Fresh yeast weight X 0.4 = active dry weight
Fresh yeast weight X 0.33 = instant dry weight
For books, have a look at Peter Reinhart; The Bread Bakers Apprentice, it’s a little older now but still full of useful info on yeasted breads and covers preferments.
Just to endorse on all points. Reinhart's BBA is really good on preferments. My standard poolish is 250g of water, 1/8 tsp of instant dry yeast, and 250g flour, mixed just to combine, covered loosely (it gives off CO2 so you don't seal), left out about 12 hours until it roughly doubles, then into the fridge until I get 'round to making it into something.
Low mental overhead to make, easy to scale up, and the amount of yeast really is not critical.
poolish with one little pea size ball of fresh yeast smashed into the water before adding the flour. Save the rest of your recipe yeast for mixing up the dough.
Poolish times will vary due to the rate of fermentation. Fermentation will be influenced by temperature & type of flour.
Thanks for your replies.
I now understand that the percentage of yeast added to the poolish declines with the length of fermentation. What I don't understand yet is how to determine how much yeast to add to the final dough. I have seen some say add the remaining yeast from original recipe , same as you add the rest of the water and flour. I have seen others only add a tiny bit more yeast to the final dough and this is where I get confused. Does using a higher percentage of flour from the recipe in the poolish mean the yeast increases , and you then need less in the final dough ?
What does your recipe call for? Usually it will list the total amount, then the amount for the preferment, then the remainder for the final dough. If your converting a traditional recipe to pre-ferment then use about 1/8-1/4 tsp for the preferment, and the rest in the final dough. It really depends on the recipe and the author. For example: If a recipe calls for a total of 1.5 tsp active dry yeast then measure that into a small container. From that small container take the little bit you need for the preferment. Then use whats left in the small container for the final dough.
If you have a particular recipe in question then post it and and we can help you with it. If you are comparing different recipes from different authors then it will just likely be confusing. You can find dozens of recipes for simple white sandwich bread. Each will be slightly different, using more/less of some ingredients, different methods, different times, etc. The end result is still white sandwich bread.
Experiment and have fun! :)
" If you are comparing different recipes from different authors then it will just likely be confusing. "
Yep, that is it in a nutshell, lol.
I'm autistic, I over-analyse and love logic, routine, pattern. I love that bread baking follows formula/ ratios. I love the science behind it. The amount of yeast used in final dough seems to vary so much that I was trying to figure out why, from a maths viewpoint I guess, rather than flavour which can only be experienced through actual trial and experimentation. I just wondered why some use all the yeast between the poolish and final dough and some reduced it. I have seen a few recipes where the yeast is substantially lower, and wondered if that was due to a higher percentage of the total flour/water being in the poolish.
The reason for wanting to know is so I can apply it to any recipe I want.
My basic recipe I have been using mostly, is 400 g strong white bread flour, 100g wholemeal bread flour, 350 g water , 8 g salt and 12g fresh yeast, (although I am querying the amount of yeast ,as they list 7g of instant yeast as alternative, which is a lot more than a third of fresh yeast quantity, which leads me to next question . What is common ratio if fresh yeast in a basic lean dough loaf ?
I home educate my daughter, so yesterday we made 3 small poolish with various amounts of yeast to compare. I also wanted to let one over-ripen so we could learn when to use it. It was interesting and rather than throw it away we used the one with most yeast, with a recipe from Ken Forkish book which had just arrived . It was a 75% hydration rather than the 70 % I am used too, I didn't have a huge mixing bucket like he describes and they are extortionate to buy in UK, so I slapped and folded as normal. Working the dough was okay, proving went well regarding rise and I was impressed with how bouncy and stretchy the dough was, but I couldn't shape it, was just too sticky so I popped it in fridge overnight. This morning I still couldn't shape it so used dough scraper to make little pancakes and placed on glass baking tray and we actually ended up with some lovely wee rolls. The flavour and lovely thin crunchy crust was great, so having decided I am going to keep walking before running, I will stick to ordinary loaf for a while yet, but will do as much reading and watching about the process as I can and believe it will be worthwhile putting the effort and practice in as I gain more experience.
My daughter is 11 and also autistic, but she made today's loaf all by herself apart from the scoring and placing in the oven. She was well chuffed.
Nice looking loaf!
Not sure if I can easily summarize this. The variations in yeast percentage is essentially due to time and flavor profile. Is the author looking for a quick loaf (more yeast, less time)? Or a better tasting loaf (less yeast, more time)? More importantly what are YOU looking for?
I looked through my archives from some of my older yeasted bakes. I seem to go between 0.5% yeast for lean doughs. And up to 1.5% yeast for enriched doughs. So that may be a starting point for you.
Not sure if you were familiar with Bakers Percentage (bakers math)? But it is based off your total flour weight (TFW). The recipe you listed would contain 2.4% fresh yeast (12/500) , or 1.4% instant yeast. (Althought using the 1/3 fresh yeast conversion it should be more around 0.8% instant yeast).I use spreadsheets and stick strictly with bakers percentage. Fits well with my mild OCD.
The higher hydration dough’s can be trickier to work with. I would recommend staying at your current comfort level while experimenting. Don’t worry about the fancy Cambro mixing buckets! Anything you have on hand large enough to hold the dough will work.
Thanks .
Yes I have learned about baker's percentage. It is the reason I was asking about the yeast ratio . I am guessing the baker thinks that anyone using fresh yeast will be willing to allow the dough longer to ferment, and that is why he uses less in comparison to the instant yeast, although I looked at Allinson's flour own recipes and they seem to advise using the full sachet (7g) for both 1lb and 2 lb loaves. Maybe he used the same so as not to confuse beginners, but it takes an over analytical person like me to actually get more confused by it lol.
I will enjoy experimenting now, and I need to make a ton of loaves anyway , only way I can practice my scoring ......
Thanks again for your patience and helpful replies.
perhaps it would help to think of bread being on a spectrum, too. Actually, a plurality of spectra. Something like this:
There are other characteristics, each with their own range of traits, to be sure.
The point is that bread is always about a balancing of factors to produce what we want. The quantity of yeast that is used, and when it is introduced into the dough, affects the finished bread. However, that is a single factor in a multi-variable equation.
I routinely frustrate my students by replying “It depends” when they hope for a simple yes/no or do this/don’t do that answer for their question. It isn’t an attempt on my part to confound them. Rather, I want them to understand that they need to look at the entire context instead of focusing on just one thing.
Yes, bakers can, and ought to, be more precise/consistent with how they assemble formulae and describe their processes. And, as you are learning, there are multiple ways to handle something as simple as a poolish and achieve a desired outcome.
Enjoy the journey. Ask all kinds of questions. Focus on “How does this work?” instead of on “What is the right way to do this?” Explore the sometimes-maddening diversity to find out what will let you produce the breads you want with ingredients and processes you enjoy. You might even wind up creating something so valuable that others adopt it as their new normal.
Paul
for the straight up answer, fresh yeast to instant yeast, multiply instant by 3 to get the amount of fresh yeast. You can also check the yeast info in the site FAQs... http://www.thefreshloaf.com/faqs/baking/yeast
So 7 g of instant yeast turns out to be 21g fresh yeast or half a cube of a 42g cube of fresh yeast. Cubes may vary. You can also play with the amounts to get longer or shorter bulk rises. Yeast growth under ideal conditions tends to double the population of yeast every 1 to 1.5 hours. That makes for fun estimations of peak activity before either the food runs out or the dough degenerates to the point of not being able to trap the gas being produced by the yeast. Stressed yeast produce a good amount of gas so there is a trick involved to stress out the yeast yet leave enough natural sugars in the dough for nice browning during the bake.
Thank you both.
Paul I guess I was approaching bread like knitting, there are various methods, but all of them result in same basic stitch structure, with final fabric turning out correctly if you follow the charts and obey the maths behind the pattern. Bread baking appears similar, lots of kneading methods like stretch and fold, slap and fold, push and roll etc., then BP and DDT and other ratios to produce similar results of well kneaded, then proofed and baked loaves. However it does seem it is much more variable than that. I guess as yeast is a living organism, as our poolish trial showed without doubt, then each loaf is going to be somewhat different . There may be goals to aim for and steps to recognise along the way but each bake is a new journey.
Mini Oven , I read something today , that says yeast grows in multiple cycles, so while it increases during fermentation, it is not as simple as more produced at one stage, means less needed in next stage, and apparently it causes similar confusion amongst novice brewers. So that helps me understand why the full amount of yeast would be included despite preferments. I will have a look at that link now.
I am housebound most days, so have the advantage of being at home all day, so can afford longer proof times. I just need to juggle timing around carers and nurses visits as I don't want to be at a crucial stage when they come.
I have used Bluprint platform, used to be craftsy for learning more techniques in my fibrecrafts hobbies, but have now discovered several baking classes. Unfortunately most of them seem to be sponsored by one firm , King Arthur, so they all use their all purpose flour instead of bread flour and instant yeast with no conversions given in the recipes for alternatives. Despite membership fees, I have had no reply to my question as initially posted above. So I really appreciate the helpfulness and patience of those who have replied here.
There are classes by Peter Reinhart, ( no poolish though ), Jeffrey Hamelman, Amber Eisler and the one we started today and are really enjoying is Michael Kalanty : The Art and Science of Bread.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/27819/preferment-flour-percentages
There is no doubt in my mind that slowing down and speeding up yeast activity affects the outcome of the loaf. Too often one forgets that prefermented flour is already fermented to some degree and by-products will have an effect on fresh dough added to it. Often a boost in yeast activity is needed, sometimes not, to avoid the dough breaking down before it gets risen and baked.
Try something as simple as increasing the amount of yeast in a lean dough, double it or even triple it and watch the dough, not the clock, but still compare.
Repeat but use a poolish without any yeast, that would make it a soaker instead. Add yeast and fresh flour after the soaker is 12to 24 hrs old anywhere from 5° to 20°C. Working in more ingredients and ev. salt will warm up the dough if done by hand. It's a conditioning longer than an autolyse and less yeast than a poolish.
We learned a very valuable lesson today. Always check the date of supermarket bought yeast.
I much prefer Sainsburys, where fruit and veg is always so much fresher and you can just go to the baker and ask for fresh yeast. However my housemate shops for us at Morrisons when I can't go out and he brought in fresh yeast from there last night. It was only after our dough behaved strangely today that I looked at the batch no. and saw it was the same as one we purchased there 3 weeks ago !
Our doughs kneaded quicker than ever and we both thought ( my daughter and I) , that we were doing great and our technique must be improving. They passed all the tests and we happily put them in proofer and left for 60 mins. They had doubled nicely and we took out to preshape.
Then we both discovered that, like our poolish experiment with mega sticky dough, we couldn't shape without it returning to a sticky mess. I tried stretching and folding them , let rest for ten minutes, during which time they started spreading out flat, and then did windowpane test again, and it just started tearing. We were so disappointed and puzzled as both looked so smooth, held sides well and retracted when we cut a piece to windowpane and stretched out beautifully. We normally take longer to knead, so overall time from mixing to preshape had been less than usual so how could they be over proofed ? Yet as it happened to both, and room and water temp was same as previous days I knew there had to be something else besides technique. I then checked the yeast and noticed the batch numbers matched the old foil paper I had kept back from last shop. The yeast didn't smell bad ( or so we thought at the time) and crumbled okay, with no spots. However upon adding some to a jug of lukewarm water and sugar , there was not one single bubble produced.
Like riding a bike I decided to quickly wash up and dry, and start again with new yeast ( organic this time , not supermarket bought). What a difference ! The yeast was a completely different colour, texture and smell to any of the supermarket yeasts we have had before, so I was really pleased that I had bought the organic stuff, even if I have to pay postage. (I have read conflicting opinions on freezing fresh yeast so only buying a weeks worth at a time, so postage is same as yeast itself).
This stuff smelled divine. Like a fruity yeast rather than alcohol, my wee lass said it was like pineapple.
My dough did knead quicker again, which in light of earlier actually made me more nervous, lol. It took longer to rise, but I expected that with no ascorbic acid or emulsifiers, which I know are definitely in dried yeast ,and am now wondering exactly what is in commercial yeast / what processes it has gone through etc, compared to this organic one from BioReal.
Preshaping didn't produce as much tension as I am used to, and I didn't dare do too much , so left it alone to rest, however the final shaping was good. Another 90 mins and loaf was not quite level with loaf tin, as we normally get, but there were one or two large bubbles appearing and it looked as though it was getting delicate, so couldn't risk any longer proof and popped it in oven. Well it produced a lovely looking crust and we heard it sing for first time !
I have to leave it till morning before we can cut it to see crumb, but I am hopeful.
I will be using up last of big flour producer's white flour within the next week, then will switch to the organic, unbleached , no additives , watermill stoneground flour we have in pantry. We still have a few packs of wholemeal to use up , but I guess a gradual change will be better than complete overnight change, as I understand the flours will behave somewhat differently.
I was admittedly surprised when I saw so many additives in flour and dried yeast, especially their presence in some organic ones. However, I agree with the principles of the Real Bread campaign and think the extra time and cost is worth it, especially as I am not supposed to consume sorbitol, from which one of the added emulsifiers is made, any antibiotics I need get specially made up in the lab to avoid it.
I wonder if using my stairlift would wake everyone else up, as I want to go and try some of my loaf...........lol
After using part of a cube of fresh yeast, blatantly stowed it away in the fridge. Simply folded the original foil paper around it and tossed it into a door compartment. A few weeks later (or longer) went to find it fresh as the moment it went in. It had landed in an open dish of baking soda used to keep odors down. Worth a mention in case you want to try it. :)
Thanks for the link. That discussion confirms my initial ponderings that perhaps using a higher percentage poolish, not just the amount of time it ferments, has an effect on the final dough. My experiment with the higher yeast poolish, may well have been more to do with that than the higher hydration level, as it seemed to behave the same way as my poor, deceased yeast had. Would explain why a 4/5 poolish uses less overall yeast than the original recipe but a 1/2 doesn't.
We really do learn more from our mistakes .
I have emailed BioReal asking them for some more info on the correct use of their yeast. As I mentioned it is darker in colour than other yeast I have seen. A video explaining the fermentation process, and comparison to techniques used in other commercial yeasts , presents a reason for this, in that their yeast is not rinsed at all, whereas others are rinsed twice in order to wash out the excess acids produced by the additives they use in the fermentation process, which this organic yeast doesn't have.
They call their dried yeast active, but tell us to add straight to flour, not water and to use 9 g per 500 g flour. So I have asked for clarification as to ratio to use when recipes call for dried yeasts. Their website also seems to suggest, as is logical, that the absence of emulsifiers and ascorbic acid, extra amylase etc. means we need to use more yeast and longer proofs. I am happy with allowing plenty of time, but obviously a wee bitty wary of overproving after our ruined dough experience. I need to get the next few loaves ( last night's is yummy , phew), right as she is autistic like me, and her confidence has been knocked back a bit.
Why is it every conversation I enter now makes me highly aware of need= knead, prove = proof, knock back= gently press out some gas, bun intended instead of pun intended etc. lol.
My new yeast comes in wax paper instead of foil. Makes it much easier to properly reseal it closed. I then pop in airtight container and have moved from door to dairy shelf, but may well try adding some bicarb to the container as it would help absorb excess condensation. Thanks.
BioReal have finally answered my email after I also contacted them via FB.
They have confirmed 9g per 500g of flour for their dried yeast, and not to add to water first. It can be stored in fridge for several months, so I will probably buy the 500g pack from now on.
The fresh yeast they are now saying should be 21g per 500g flour, with 90 mins BF, followed by shaping and further 20 mins proof, with dough at 28°C . If proving for longer less yeast can be used. However , unlike website claims, they have advised not to freeze the fresh yeast as it can damage it. So as I would have to pay postage , it means it is just not realistic expense wise. I could buy the odd packet if buying flour from someone who stocks it too, like Shipton Mill or Bakery Bits. That being said I have found the dried stuff just as pleasant in both aroma and taste.
Now regarding my sticky poolish experiment. On that day I opened a new bag of the same flour I had been using for months. Well every dough since then has been overly sticky. No longer the case upon changing to new bag of flour.
We have a saying in the autistic community, that when you have met one autistic person , you have met one autistic person. In other words, don't make assumptions or expect us to be any more alike than any other individual. I have now learned for myself that the same rule applies to every bag of flour, from same source or not. LOL.