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Need advise on overnight proofing (only sourdough)

Brotaniker's picture
Brotaniker

Need advise on overnight proofing (only sourdough)

Recently I started to let the dough proof overnight. It does raise quite a bit, but has no oven spring. I use a dutch oven with a lid.

You probably want some key data, so this was my last one:

100g Sourdough starter (rye, was unfed for 2 weeks, just back from a trip)

370g Wholewheat flour 

180g T65 (bio, nothing added), that is 30%

370g Water (=70%H)

12g salt

I mixed flours and water, 30 min autolyse, then the rest. Did 3 or 4 stretchnfolds, then put it in a wicker basked overnight, around 10 hours.

It did raise quite well. I need to add that I am in a warm place, night temp might be 28C or so. 

Next morning turned it over, and used some baking paper to let it sink into the hot dutch oven.

Then baked it 30 min with lid, 15 min without lid.

 

Inside it's very even, taste is great. Just the oven spring did not happen. Did I use too much or too little starter? I did a feeding with the little that was left yesterday and it doubled up again withing a few hours, so I think my starter is quite healthy.

Like to add, I really like the overnight method, it fits my schedule much better than evening baking, which usually means very late night baking.

Any suggestions?

 

Rhody_Rye's picture
Rhody_Rye

Your loaf doesn't look flat to me at all - looks quite good in fact. However I don't quite understand your process. Do you bulk ferment for only 2-3 hours and then proof at room temp for 10 hours? I wonder if the loaf is both underfermented and over-proofed.

jey13's picture
jey13

To be clear, when you say you let it rest overnight...was that in the refrigerator out out on the counter? 

mutantspace's picture
mutantspace

sounds like under ferment and over proof to me if you left it out overnight...but judging by the photo looks nice and tasty - 30 minutes is alot to steam hence your thick crust.....id go more for 20:20 but then thats just a personal choice....when im doing my bread i generally use 22% levain with a bulk and s and f for up to 4 hours (usually 3 3/4 hours), preshape and rest for 20 - 30 minutes, shape then into banneton and let rest for 45 minutes then into plastic bag and into fridge for up to 20 hours.

Then straight from fridge onto board, score and into preheated iron pot. 

dough generally takes about 30 minutes to hit 4C in fridge at which stage yeast goes to sleep. LAB eat a little but are pretty dopey at that temperature. Point is you have to take temperature into account and everybodys dough and fridge and room temp is different. 

bottleny's picture
bottleny

28C (overnight temperature) for 10hr Proofing may be too long at such high temperature.

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Did you score the bread? This "tells" the bread where to go. But if the 10 hours was not in the refrigerator, that could be the issue.

Ford's picture
Ford

I agree that 10 hours at 28°C is too long.  Place the loaf in the refrigerator overnight, if you wish.  I also agree that the pictures of the loaf looks fine. Ford

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I really like that crumb...

I recently learned to bake the extremely open crumb,  but when it comes to eating I chose your.

Dan

Brotaniker's picture
Brotaniker

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I proof overnight at room temp. There are two options I guess, I like to get feedback on both:

#1) Keep it that way. What I need to do? Reduce amount of starter? My starter is <9% of flour content. I guess that isn't very high. No problem to reduce that. However, to quote a famous TV series: "winter is coming", and room temp can be anything from 30°C down to 10°C in coming month. That might be difficult to calculate.

#2) Proof in fridge. This will give a more stable procedure. Would I need to use more starter? If so, what % you suggest? Another question: you bake right away from the fridge or you let the dough get to room temp for 1-2 hours? (which again is not good with my daily schedule). Will baking cold produce mega bubbles? I try to avoid that. Currently I do not add yeast, should I? I do sourdough only for a few month now. 

My preference go a bit towards the fridge method to add more stability.

@mutantspace

Sounds good. I need to re-read that. 

jey13's picture
jey13

I’d give the refrigerator a try; And you don’t need more starter. My recipe has about the same amount of flour as yours and requires 95g. So, should be fine—actually, given that your bread is mostly wheat, wouldn’t the starter be working faster? I’m not expert enough on wheat breads, but I do know how much starters love whole grain flour.

And yes, you can go direct from refrigerator to oven. 

I’ll leave it to those wiser about wheat breads than I to say what other adjustments should be made—but am I right in saying that a bread with that much wheat flour probably won’t rise as much as one with white bread flour? Isn’t that the nature of the wheat-bread-beast? If so, then if you’re getting that much rise during your trouble time, you should be in great shape once you iron out the wrinkles.

mutantspace's picture
mutantspace

what you need to do is think about is how long it takes to proof your bread at room temperature and then experiment with fridge times. Generally fridges are at 4C. it takes approx. 30 minutes for dough to hit that temperature but yeast and bacteria are slowing down all the time. once you hit 5 - 6C youre really hitting sleep time.

So my room temp proofing time is about 2 hours so i leave my bread out for 45 minutes then put in fridge (which gives bread 75 minutes to proof over 20+ hours) which seems to work perfectly for me. So for you perhaps take 75 minutes off your room temp proofing time and leave your bread out to proof for the difference and then put in fridge. Take straight form fridge and score and bake.

hope that helps. Basically you need to get your yeast and bacteria working hard before you put them to sleep. 

Oh and i put 22% levain into my bread

Brotaniker's picture
Brotaniker

@mutantspace

This is 22% of what? Total or flour part only?

Just flour I use 600g - 50g of it came from the starter. That would be 8.3%

With water it would be 1020g / 100g, roughly 10%. In any case I should double, or tripple it I guess.

So my procedure would be:

Morning: feed the starter to get about 300g total (100% H)

Evening: Do the dough (no autolyse, too much starter), knead for 8-10 Minutes or so, then 3-4 stretch&fold for 90 Minutes, put in basked, let it stay at room temp for 1 hour, then into the basked and into the fridge.

Next morning: Baking the cold dough

How does that sound?

Brotaniker's picture
Brotaniker

Here is my first straight from the fridge test. 

Morning job:

300g Pre-dough: 100g starter (rye) / 100g wholewheat / 100g water

Early evening:

270g wholewheat 

180g T65 (no additives)

240g water (65% hydration)

30 Minutes Autolyse

12g salt

 

1 hour - stretch n fold (did 4)

2 hours - put in the basket - proof at room temp (~26-28°C)

9 hours fridge proof

 

Next morning:

Used dutch oven method

225°C 20 minutes with lid

200°C 25 minutes no lid

Notes:

Scoring was quite easy, dough was not sticky. I should have scored deeper I guess. Oven spring was good though. Bubbles are a bit dense, I will increase water in 10g steps the next times.

I am pretty satisfied with the result so far. And it taste good too.

Any potential improvement comments from the experts?

 

Brotaniker's picture
Brotaniker

Another try. Exactly the same as last time, but 10g more water (now 56.7% hydration). All timings etc. are same, except: baking 20min with lid, and 25min without lid. 

Observations:

  • Dough raised more overnight in fridge.
  • Good ovenspring, almost touched the lid

Dough was still pretty firm, easy to score too. Will add again 10g more water next time.

Most difficult part: to not cut the freshly baked bread which filled the the house with a nice bakery smell.

Will slice it tonight, I don't expect anything unusual either way.

 

jey13's picture
jey13

Beautiful loaf! Looks like you got some awesome oven spring. And don’t be afraid to up the hydration. 60%-65% should give you the crumb you’re after —with plenty of holes and such. 

I’m so glad we were able to help you with this. Please post crumbs shots :-D

Brotaniker's picture
Brotaniker

Thank you all for your comments. I feel I'm in the right track. I will increase the water with every try to check it the sweet spot.

Now it looks nice, but with 56.7% hydration it's a bit dry inside. Very easy to slice though, nothing sticking to the knife, I guess that's a sign of lack of moisture too.

I will test 60% in a few days, then 63.3% and so on.