Help with Sourdough
Thanks all for your help with my sourdough starter last week. Just read the bit about getting it to a better feed ratio so will try that this coming week.
A couple other questions in the meantime. I baked a couple more loaves today and still not getting a ton of rise see picture above. The loaves looked bubbly and awesome during shaping though (see photo) and I got a 50-60 percent rise in bulk fermentation.
Do you think this is a case of underfermenting? Or maybe I wasn’t delicate enough with the loaves when I took them out of the fridge?
Also, in most of the photos i see of others loaves the area where the loaf has been scored is flaky and bulging out. Mine is flat and looks like just a lighter part of the crust. Any ideas why this might be the case?
The crumb would tell us a lot. Generally it's helpful to know what process you used. What was the recipe, especially, what percentage of levain did you use? Did you up the flour in your starter feedings to 1-2-2? What temperature did you ferment at, and for how long?
Not getting much rise could be due to overfermenting during bulk or overproofing on the final rise. Once the food supply to the microbes is exhausted, the integrity of the gluten structure begins to become compromised. If it does not color during baking that is another sign that the microbes' supply of sugar was exhausted. Dough that is overfermented is hard to shape. That effect might not have happened until the final rise, though.
You're probably very close to success, but I also highly recommend getting Hamelman's Bread (my favorite) or another comprehensive book. Between that and this forum you will be killing it in short order.
IMG_2745.jpg
Crumb shot above. Similar to the loaf I posted last week. Recipe was as follows:
1000 g bread flour
200g starter (fed 1:1:1 12 hrs prior (100% hydration))
800 g water @85 deg
20 g salt
I kneaded the dough for about 5 mins after mixing, and then did stretch and folds every 30 minutes for 4 sessions during the bulk ferment. I bulk fermented in my microwave with some glasses of hot water inside to keep the temp around 77 deg F. BF lasted approximately 6 hours. I then pre shapped the dough, rested for 20 mins and final shaped the dough, then let rest in the fridge overnight (approx 17 hrs).
Thought I might be underfermenting since I didnt see a ton of expansion during bulk fermentation which was the reason I upped my BF from 4 to 6 hrs. Came out with a very similar result though.
This loaf also got slightly stuck to the bowl on the way out of the fridge. Nothing terrible but it did take some delicate work to unstick. Dont know if that might have something to do with it, but I'm guessing not because the other loaf I baked had no issues coming out of the bowl and it turned out almost identical.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also - any ideas on the other question I had about the scoring?
I am new to sourdough too so maybe some real experts will respond, but I have two main thoughts:
1) Feeding 1:1:1 12 hours before likely results in a starter/levain that has fallen completely. I would be more likely to use 1:2:2 and use after 6 hours or so. You generally want to use your levain when it has doubled/peaked and before it has fallen. Your bulk might be taking a long time because you are using your levain when it is way past its prime.
2) Your hydration is really high at about 82% (900/1100). This makes the dough pretty hard to handle and if you are experiencing shaping issues and not able to create enough tension in the final shape, it could also create problems like lack of oven spring. Some people on here suggest the 1:2:3 method, which is 1 part starter to 2 parts water to 3 parts flour. So you would use 150g starter, 300g water, and 450g flour for example. I haven't used this method, but it is a good formula for beginners.
Yeah - the last loaf I tried was the 1:2:3 method but I got similar results. Just toying around with hydration to see what the impact is. I had read that higher hydration doughs were more likely to get better oven spring so I was trying that. Clearly it wasn't the issue so I'll go back to something lower next time.
Just trying to figure out if I over or under proofed or if the starter just wasn't vigorous enough. I feel like the appearance of my scoring not being flaky also has something to do with it but I have no idea what it is.
I'm not sure but I feel like scoring is a bit trickier than it appears. In some of my earlier loaves I got good rise in the oven, but not an impressive ear or anything. Now I get equally good oven rise, but the "ear" is much better and it's just because my scoring technique has improved and has nothing to do with fermentation. Images below are from a recent loaf and a loaf from June when I first bought my lame and started working with sourdough.
Yeah I also don't have a lame - been using a sharp chef's knife to score.
Re two thoughts, well put. Also, the crumb shows the bread is still underfermented.
You need to master lower hydration while you are working out the starter/levain issues. High hydration is a great challenge, even for experienced bakers. I'd stick to low 70s hydration. Also ifs201 is right about not using starter that is past its prime. It probably is okay for using in levain, although not ideal, but the levain really needs to not be exhausted. The standard Hamelman way works really well: Step 1, get the starter strong at 1-2-2 feedings; Step 2, build levain at 70 F for 8-12 hours; Step 3, ferment at ~76 F for X number of stretch and folds (here's where Hamelman and I often part ways--he prescribes a shorter time period than I often employ) before final shaping and final rise.
I don't think the starter I used was past its prime. I have a pretty cold kitchen (20-21c during the night and slightly higher during the day). When I made my dough the starter had about doubled but hadn't started falling yet.
OK so seems like I need to get my starter a bit more well fed and vigorous before trying again (I'm using my new one so its only about 10 days old). Any suggestions on how to migrate the starter from 1:1:1 feedings to 1:2:2? Is it just keep feeding until I notice it doubling quicker and then move to 1:2:2? Also, should I be feeding on a fixed schedule or waiting for the peak before feeding again?
Point taken on the high hydration dough.
The point is that you should immediately be increasing your starter to 1-2-2. Once it's doubling predictably in good time, i.e., every 4-8 hours depending on temp, it's ready to use to build levain. It simply isn't at 1-1-1. It might have been doubling, but it wasn't concentrated enough to be effective.
As to the fixed schedule, that's not always possible. I keep mine in the fridge and then do 2-4 mini-builds (e.g., 1/4 oz-1/2 oz-1/2 oz) to reactivate it. I do these at 70 in the morning before work and then feed again after dinner or before bed. Not necessarily ideal but it works well enough. What I don't do is let the levain go too long. If I'm going to have to leave before it's ready, I'll retard the levain before it's ripe, then let it come to room temp before using it.
Thanks. This is all very helpful.
Another question. I’ve been using Robin Hood “best for bread” flour in my loaves since it’s the only bread flour sold at the grocery store. Just noticed it doesn’t say “unbleached” anywhere on the label so just wondering if I’d have any issues using that for sourdough or in my starter?
up until now I’ve been feeding my starter with whole wheat flour but thought I’d try bread flour to see how that works.
Update: Last night I fed @ 1:2:2 for the first time and used bread flour. it's about 12 hours now and the starter has a bunch of bubbles but only risen about 50%. Thoughts?
I don't know the Robin Hood brand, but I'd avoid bleached flour. You should also avoid tap water that isn't filtered, since tap water is treated with agents designed to kill microbes.
Remember also to feed and discard. Feed 1-2-2, and at the next feeding time discard all but the amount to be used in next feeding, and feed again. That is how you build a concentrated, healthy colony. Bread flour has less food than WW flour, so you will get different results. A typical feeding is plain AP or bread flour, but I often use WW and some rye. Rye makes things very active and adds sourness, which I favor.
Thanks. Yes I've been using filtered water and discarding each time. Does it matter that I keep a WW starter and use bread flour when I'm baking bread? I thought you were supposed to have a starter that is the same flour as the dough you are building?
Yes and no. It works either way, and it's not an exact science. A lot of this requires your own experimentation.
The Robin Hood “Best for Bread” flour is unbleached and I’ve never had issues using it with your sourdough starter or breads.
Thanks all.
I now have my starter rising predictably at 1:2:2 so I baked another loaf this morning and it came out a lot better. See below photos. I think the big holes are because I underproofed correct? Pretty happy with the outside (other than maybe overflouring the banneton since it stuck to the basket last time) and I got a lot more oven spring but I feel like there's still a lot of room for improvement on the crumb.
Crumb -.jpg
Loaf -.jpg
The outside looks fantastic. I'd say the inside still evidences under-bulk fermentation, i.e., large holes with very tight crumb. You haven't mentioned how your levain acted. It would be helpful if you could describe how the levain performed after your 1-2-2 feedings. I'm also interested to know the hydration, fermentation temps and times, and the recipe.
Filomatic, would you mind looking at my blog entries too if you have a minute? I can't tell if I am also underproofing or just not great at handling because I keep on getting a close crumb. Many thanks.
I did last week and the ones I looked at do not suffer from under-fermentation at all. Very nice work indeed. Most new SD bakers have breads like Leafsfan9 early on, myself included. What's misleading is that on the surface it appeas he's given more than adequate time to ferment. Nonetheless, the results tell a different story, and as we learn more about is process we find that he hadn't built the starter to strength.
I really appreciate the feedback. I've been happy with the loaves (they taste good), but a bit disappointed in lack of progress as despite changing methods my crumb is always pretty much the same. So it continues!
I'm not the best at open crumb either, but I'm quite happy with my breads otherwise. Yours are really good.
1. My levain rose a little more than 2x in ~8 hours sitting at room temp. I had fed it 35/96/96 25% rye 75% whole wheat
2. The recipe for this one was 185g starter (I budgeted for 200 but didnt have enough in my levain after leaving some for refeeding), 400g water @ 88F, 600g All Purpose unbleached flour, 12g sea salt.
I autolysed for 40 minutes with just flour and water, then added salt and levain and kneaded for about 5 minutes until the windowpane test was just passed. Then bulk fermented for 4 hours. I did 2 stretch and folds at ~40 mins and ~1.5 hrs and then left untouched for the last 2.5 or so. The dough fermented in my microwave with a jug of hot water, I took the dough temp in the middle of the BF and it was ~76F.
After BF I preshaped, bench rest for 20 mins, then final shaped and put in the fridge for about 8 hours, then baked first thing in the morning.
One thing I'm wondering about is I'm not 100% sure the levain had peaked when I used it, it was still domed at the top and really bubbly - maybe I should have waited until it started to level out?
Also, maybe I should have used more levain? 250g?
So Chad Robertson of Tartine likes to use "young levain," although that requires increased fermentation time. I'm not ready to say it wasn't ripe enough. On the other hand, Hamelman usually calls for ~12 hours. Through this hands on experience you will learn how to overcome this.
How risen was the dough when you decided to shape? This is why I'm recommending you get Hamelman's Bread (nb, I often ferment longer than he calls for). Most of those recipes are very reliable. You might need a higher proportion of prefermented flour than you are using. If the 185 g levain, how much was flour? Assuming 100 you're 16.67%, which is on the lower side.
So was the (1) was the dough ready to shape given the strength of your starter and percentage of prefermented flour, and (2) was an 8-hour final cold retard enough? I rarely go less than 24 hours on the retarded final rise. But I have also overproofed a couple times while doing so. You are looking for ~85% risen on the final proof. Remember, the result tells a story of underfermentation/and/or proofing
I was wondering if only 2 stretch and folds combined with the use of AP flour meant there wasn't enough development. For a 4 hour bulk a lot of people would recommend 4x S&F during the first 2 hours maybe even followed by another one or two.
Could be. I had been using bread flour and had crappy results so I thought I'd give AP flour a try. Also in Hamelman's book I think he said having too high of a protein level in your flour could be a recipe for having too much elasticity less oven spring. Can't really go too wrong with AP flour, but I agree maybe it could have been kneaded or folded more.
Could that be a reason for the big bubbles?
Yes, well, there's been a lot of debate here and different practices among the books about gluten development. Stretch and fold is a way of developing gluten without having to risk excessive oxidation via (machine) mixing. Yet many here swear by slap and fold, which one would expect would oxidize thoroughly. Hamelman suggests minimal stretch and fold, while Tartine/Robertson call for many.
My own practice is generally 3-4 stretch and folds after following Hamelman's mixing times. This depending on how slack the dough feels, so it's not uncommon for me to space these 45 minutes apart. I usually finish with an hour without any folds.
There are a lot of ways to get good results.
I actually picked up the Hamelman book last week. I've read a bunch of it already and it's great so thanks for the suggestion.
The levain was 100% hydration so 92.5g of each water and flour. by my math I'm at 13% prefermented flour as a percentage of total so I'll try a little more next time.
1 - the dough felt ready - I did the poke test and the poke refilled at a medium rate. I was worried about overproofing though as I never got any oven spring on past loaves so I erred on the side of less. This dough had good spring, but the crumb obviously leaves a lot to be desired.
2. I was under the impression that the cold retard was mostly about taste as the yeast aren't active at such low temperatures, but the bacteria are. I typically leave it for longer but I wanted to bake it so it was ready for my family for breakfast this morning.
In his book. Hamelman suggests a 2.5 hr BF and 2 hour proof. If I'm cold retarding does that replace the second proof entirely or do I still need to do a second proof before popping it in the fridge?
Maybe next time I'll try a little more levain and a longer cold retard.
The poke test is for the final proof, not bulk ferment. And doing the poke test on a cold-retarded loaf probably won't be reliable. Some might proof for some time before cold retarding. I might have even done that once or twice, but generally it's one or the other, as Hamelman's recipes show.
Remember that Hamelman also often prescribes using a bit of commercial yeast in his recipes. It's easy to see why a commercial baker would do that, because they need more predictability to protect their bottom line. I always omit it, so I know my fermentation and proofing will take longer as a result.
Note, you often get good oven spring from an underfermented loaf. A severely underfermented loaf will have poor oven spring.
13% is on the low end, so I would have recommended a longer bulk and much longer final cold proof, depending on how things looked and felt. Some people use even lower percentages of prefermented flour, and they have much longer bulks. It probably results in fantastic flavor, but it could make it much harder to time. Check out results for "micro levain." There has been vigorous discussion here about levain percentage, how to calculate, etc. You can use it to your advantage. If you're in a hurry, you can up the percentage, or increase the fermentation temp. to 80-82 F.
Yup good point. Ok I’ll try a higher levain percentage next time. My kitchen is 70F so hard to find a spot where it can ferment at 80+ as my microwave trick is basically the boundary of what’s possible for me.
Does it rise when it’s retarding in the fridge? Temp is 38 F.
Yes, it rises in the fridge, but much more slowly, of course, once the dough cools down. On the colder end he suggests 18 hours at I think 41 F, so you can see that your 8 hours is not nearly enough. I often go 30.
If you want to control temperature:
https://brodandtaylor.com/folding-proofer-and-slow-cooker/